*** Official Tennis Thread ****

[ohiostate124]

New narrative: Nadal is the clay GOAT because there's no good clay court players.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/tSwt1D8.gif[/]

I never said it but let’s be honest. Until Djokovic finally showed up and Söderling had his one moment, who did Nadal have to deal with on clay besides Federer? His Spanish pigeons?

Then again, this is coming from the guy who thinks Safin and Roddick were weak competition.

[Kokanee]

New narrative: Nadal is the clay GOAT because there's no good clay court players.

I mean... I substantiated my claim. Feel free to provide an actual argument. Almost all top players tune their games to hard court and that naturally translates better to grass than clay. Very few top players since the early 2000s have better records on clay than grass or hard court, even when ignoring their matches against Nadal.

Nadal's biggest competition on clay were grass or hard court specialists. The only other consistent top player who prefers clay was Ferrer.

This isn't a new narrative either. It has been said ever since the likes of Ferrero and Coria disappeared.

[skinnyfat88]

Just because clay wasn't the preferred surface of Fed/Djoko/Murray doesn't mean they weren't good on it.

I consider Fed the GOAT and Rafa the best single-surface specialist of all time but there is a better argument that Fed preyed on weak competition in his first few dominant years than saying the same for Rafa on Clay.

Either way - you can only beat who is put in front of you.

[ohiostate124]

[Kokanee]

Just because clay wasn't the preferred surface of Fed/Djoko/Murray doesn't mean they weren't good on it.

I consider Fed the GOAT and Rafa the best single-surface specialist of all time but there is a better argument that Fed preyed on weak competition in his first few dominant years than saying the same for Rafa on Clay.

Either way - you can only beat who is put in front of you.

Murray wasn't good on it until the last 2 years or so. He actually only had a couple top 10 wins on the surface until very recently and only ever made it deep at RG before that thanks to very fortunate draws.

Federer and Novak are good on the surface. But they are all time greats on the others. Federer and Novak had to compete with other all time greats on fast courts while Nadal competed with just "good" players on clay.

Federer's weak competition early on is largely balanced by the reverse happening now while Nadal is only 30-31. Federer should not be dominating at age 36. Why isn't Nadal winning every slam? Why is he losing every match to Federer when he's 5 years younger? And why is he still losing to journeyman like Muller at Wimbledon? The tour in Federer's prime was definitely far stronger than it is now.

Even in his prime, Nadal always had bad losses to weak players in slams. And Novak has deprived Federer of more slams than he has Nadal. And Murray never beat Federer in a slam except one time over 5 sets at the AO in 2013 when Federer was injured. So, again, the era argument doesn't hold up.

[Dominik]

A lot of people don't take into account matchups are everything in tennis and how those cards have fallen in draws has determined the outcome of several slams. It's not just about who's the best on a surface.

Nadal was 1-6 vs. Davydenko on HC. Davydenko would have halted Rafa's progress at many more tournaments but who did he run into 21 times? 19-2 Federer.

Novak struggled with Stan in slams on HC but who was often taking care of him? 20-3 Federer (20-0 on HC).

Roddick was 5-4 vs. Djokovic. Not a great matchup for Novak. But who did he keep running into? 21-3 Federer.

AO 2008 to 2012 RG, Novak ended up in Federer's half 15 times out of 18 even though they were never both ranked 1 and 2 at this time and they played in 8 GS semis. So much for random draws and it only stopped happening when the media picked up on it.

[ohiostate124]

[Kokanee]

A lot of people don't take into account matchups are everything in tennis and how those cards have fallen in draws has determined the outcome of several slams. It's not just about who's the best on a surface.

Nadal was 1-6 vs. Davydenko on HC. Davydenko would have halted Rafa's progress at many more tournaments but who did he run into 21 times? 19-2 Federer.

Novak struggled with Stan in slams on HC but who was often taking care of him? 20-3 Federer (20-0 on HC).

Roddick was 5-4 vs. Djokovic. Not a great matchup for Novak. But who did he keep running into? 21-3 Federer.

AO 2008 to 2012 RG, Novak ended up in Federer's half 15 times out of 18 even though they were never both ranked 1 and 2 at this time and they played in 8 GS semis. So much for random draws and it only stopped happening when the media picked up on it.

Yes, actually a Serbian statistician once published a paper on how unlikely it was that the draws were random given how Djokovic kept ending up in Federer's half. His argument was that the ITF wanted Federer/Nadal finals and thought Federer had a better chance of beating Djokovic in hard court/grass semi-finals before 2013.

So Nadal has definitely had his share of good fortune. The only time he ever drew Djokovic in his half was, not coincidentally, at Roland Garros.

[euron]

Here's an interesting thing I saw. Sam Groth on how difficult it is to be a sub-top tennis player financially.

“The good years you make money and you don’t worry about it… Other times you’re thinking ‘how the hell I can pay my coach’s bill that’s coming through at the end of the week if I don’t win this next match?'”

Really makes me support what Novak said earlier and how more money should go to lower ranked players to create a better and more competitive tour. The top players don't just have an advantage experience, or talent wise. They also have the money to keep investing in their carreers.


https://au.sports.yahoo.com/tennis/a...tennis-player/


edit: Not to say that top players should take a pay cut or don't deserve every penny, because you are paid according to your results, but when only the top50 can make a decent living it's kinda iffy. How many players have come from a poor background anyway? Serena Williams?

[Camalama]

Nadal playing Queens this year to warm up for Wimbledon.

SW17 #3 coming soon

[ohiostate124]

Nadal playing Queens this year to warm up for Wimbledon.

SW17 #3 coming soon

I think you mean SW19.




Federer playing Rotterdam. Looks like he is going for #1. Much tougher field to deal with compared to ***** although it appears that he only has to make the semis to get #1.

http://www.rogerfederer.com/index.ph...rdam-next-week

[euron]

The fuk bros. I'm 30min from Rotterdam that's the motherfukking hometown.


Brbbbb

[Dominik]

Nadal playing Queens this year to warm up for Wimbledon.

SW17 #3 coming soon

Best of luck.

[Camalama]

[Dominik]

The trip down memory lane was fun but it's time to update your image library. That material is old as dirt.

Here's the last 4...

[engscott]

Looking at those old pics of Nadal and Federer, not only the GOATs on the court but they are both arguing over GOAT for Hair on court....Look at that flow on both of them!

[Camalama]

Dom I would be more than happy to trade 5 loses at tournaments that don't matter for GS wins

[Dominik]

Dom I would be more than happy to trade 5 loses at tournaments that don't matter for GS wins

The last 3 mattered and you know that AO win was huge. The last two were key opportunities to improve his HC resume (and finally win Miami which I hope he does this year if Federer skips it) which is pretty lean for someone of his ability with 16 slams.

4 HC slams to 11. 8 HC Masters to 27. 0 ATP Finals to 6. 0 titles defended off clay in his entire career. A little over half the total weeks at #1.

Federer has had the better career but as I've said before I rate them as equals and court speed typically determines who wins. First half of the season advantage Nadal. Second half advantage Federer. The only reason the H2H has been lopsided is because they only played 11 out of 38 after RG — that's not even a third of their matches.

[ohiostate124]

This indoor New York tournament with the all black court is pretty cool.

[Camalama]

sacrificing a goat tonight to my pagan gods in hopes of an early federer upset (pre-semis) in rotterdam

[realmiscer]

Looking at those old pics of Nadal and Federer, not only the GOATs on the court but they are both arguing over GOAT for Hair on court....Look at that flow on both of them!

norwood reaper visiting nadal sadly

[ohiostate124]

sacrificing a goat tonight to my pagan gods in hopes of an early federer upset (pre-semis) in rotterdam

Sacrificing a capybara in the hopes that it will make Nadal lose even earlier in Acapulco.

[euron]

Kohlschreiber won against Kachanov so Federer faces some Belgium qualifier bro, then Kohlschreiber.

He's 12-0 vs him. Would've prefered to see Federer vs Kachanov. After that it's Wawrinka. (20-3)


I feel like only Zverev and Goffin/Dimitrov could give him trouble but that's SF/Final already.

[Camalama]

Kohlschreiber won against Kachanov so Federer faces some Belgium qualifier bro, then Kohlschreiber.

He's 12-0 vs him. Would've prefered to see Federer vs Kachanov. After that it's Wawrinka. (20-3)


I feel like only Zverev and Goffin/Dimitrov could give him trouble but that's SF/Final already.

Story of Federers career. easy draws

[ohiostate124]

Story of Federers career. easy draws

[Dominik]

Story of Federers career. easy draws

After last year's US Open Nadal fans shouldn't complain about draws.

Fun fact: Until his loss to Cilic he'd played 15 straight slam matches against players outside the Top 25. What more do you want, no Top 50 players?

[euron]

It's a 500 tournament. Only like 4 top players compete if you're lucky.

People here are freaking out Federer even came to play Rotterdam (srs). Normally top10 players commit at the start, get their faces advertised and then pull out because it doesn't actually fit their current schedule.

[ohiostate124]

Well, Stan lost so there is like a 0.1% chance Federer doesn’t take #1.

[ohiostate124]

Roger off to a good start with the 61/62 win over Bemelmans. That over the shoulder/behind the back shot was crazy.

[euron]