Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss - Part Two

[zoren]

not, just use purple if you want to train ''fasted''

WHY the hell are you eating 1900kca?

read the stickies, NOW: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981

I've read the stickies, dont CAPSMAYUS me man x)! I'm finishing my cut and will start bulking in December. Thanks btw

Anyone else?

[coopermax]

With purple wrath, how many scoops to get the 10 grams of BCAAs?

[maltanarchy]

Sorry if this is a repost, but for the unawere here is an amazing calculator designed for IF: http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/

Anyone else find it odd that this calculator is the only thing on that web site? No home page, no other links. It's odd. Just sayin.

[vitornoob]

With purple wrath, how many scoops to get the 10 grams of BCAAs?

18g has 10g BCAA

Anyone else find it odd that this calculator is the only thing on that web site? No home page, no other links. It's odd. Just sayin.

These calculator works in % and is total trash, use the stickies

[alemus]

I've looked into IF alot and today was Day 1 for me. So far I REALLY like it. 1. I like not eating so 'bird like' eating 6x/day was fine for a while but I was always hungry and all I could ever think about was food! I didn't feel normal always feeling and thinking this way. 2.I have found I have alot more calories left over to consume by the end of my 8 hour window feed since I pretty much skipped my first meal.

Last night my last meal ended at 7pm so today I ate my first meal at 9am. 14 hour fast. Here's my question I know its in here somewhere on this damn thread but I cant seem to find it!

People have said that IF is great because you can change it around but Im having trouble figuring that out. So far right now I would feed 9am-5pm fast from 5pm-8pm or 9pm this is because of my morning training session that occurs between 6am-8am. But what if one day I want to train later at night after 5pm does this mean I cant eat since Im over my 8 hour feed window for that day?

[alemus]

I've been reading and Martin says that you actually refeed carbs after every workout.. but say I'm in low calories/CR-IF diet and my carbs are kinda limited (100-120gr).. should I add a refeed weekly? I'm around 1900 calories.. maybe take my cals up to maintenance for that refeed day (1gr/lb protein, 2gr/lb, fat low) ? I'm 168 lbs now

thats why I wanted to start the IF diet I want to stop this whole refeeding process I hate that I think about it alot I just want to be able to eat a good meal post workout and know thats my reefeed. Doing this traditional eating 6x/day refeeding maybe 1x/week (cycling) it was seriously taking the best of me and I always thought about food I dont want my life to have an outlook on food this way. IF seems more casual.

[alemus]

I've got a chronic large intestine inflammation, and since starting IF I seem to shyte way less often, sometimes I go days without shyting, and the other day I had an exremely dense, and somewhat painful bowel movement (it almost stood up by itself in the toilet afterwards). And that hasn't happened to me in years..

Let me know if that was TMI.

You need to eat ALOT more fiber. Eat your veggies! flax seed and wheat bran instead of oats!

[alemus]

As a guy that was overweight his whole life... I guess that really shapes my goals. The loose belly fat (possibly loose skin) is something that taunts me. It irritates me. However, maybe filling with muscle is the better way to attack that. IDK... Hence why I'm confused.

Maybe I'll just eat at maintenance and follow the LG guidelines of +/- 20%

I lost 45lbs and I feel you, I have that lower loose skin too you cant tell but when I stand straight and dont suck it in, its there I could even pull on it even though the muscle underneath is tight. Over time it has gotten smaller with weighted lower ab exercises but its going to take alot of time to allow the bodys skin to adjust. Its the elasticity that we ****ed up when we got big.

[nkiritsis13]

I've looked into IF alot and today was Day 1 for me. So far I REALLY like it. 1. I like not eating so 'bird like' eating 6x/day was fine for a while but I was always hungry and all I could ever think about was food! I didn't feel normal always feeling and thinking this way. 2.I have found I have alot more calories left over to consume by the end of my 8 hour window feed since I pretty much skipped my first meal.

Last night my last meal ended at 7pm so today I ate my first meal at 9am. 14 hour fast. Here's my question I know its in here somewhere on this damn thread but I cant seem to find it!

People have said that IF is great because you can change it around but Im having trouble figuring that out. So far right now I would feed 9am-5pm fast from 5pm-8pm or 9pm this is because of my morning training session that occurs between 6am-8am. But what if one day I want to train later at night after 5pm does this mean I cant eat since Im over my 8 hour feed window for that day?

This link might help:
http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html
It covers some of the different protocols. I think there was another one, so I'll look around and see if I find anything.

I completely agree on the refeeding part. I would always get sick those days because of the disparity between my regular calories, and I always felt like my leptin didn't get enough of a recovery for them to support my cuts. On the leangains site, I think Martin even said he was sick of the little kid's meal portions throughout the day, and certainly agree. Going to bed hungry is out of the question, too.

I was going to try train fasted today, but I stuck with my normal 70 calories of oats and some pre-workout supps/BCAA. I never lifted fasted and would rather stick to just cardio if I can because the weight training needs 110% of my focus.

[Dr2]

Are BCAA's pre workout really needed? I really have wasted so much money on supps I really dont want to spend $60 on a new tub, I would just have some whey but I prefer to break my fast at 2 and eat till 10 then break it at 12:30 and eat till 8:30,

May be a dumb question but would whey break my fast completely?



Just over a week in bulking on lean gains, love the mental aspect, being hungry for a few hours makes me feel as if I am gaining less fat even if I am not, plus it's uber convenient and I'm not so nazi about eating ultra clean foods as I try to fill my calories in an 8 hour window.

[jzpowahz]

Are BCAA's pre workout really needed? I really have wasted so much money on supps I really dont want to spend $60 on a new tub, I would just have some whey but I prefer to break my fast at 2 and eat till 10 then break it at 12:30 and eat till 8:30,

May be a dumb question but would whey break my fast completely?



Just over a week in bulking on lean gains, love the mental aspect, being hungry for a few hours makes me feel as if I am gaining less fat even if I am not, plus it's uber convenient and I'm not so nazi about eating ultra clean foods as I try to fill my calories in an 8 hour window.

Yes, whey is breaking your fast.

IMO, if you are eating post workout anyway then I would just ditch the bcaa's and save the dosh. It's only an hour or so. How much catabolism could even occur in that time. I'm thinking SFA.

[vitornoob]

BCAA breaks the fast too

Each gram has 5-6kcal

[nkiritsis13]

BCAA breaks the fast too

Each gram has 5-6kcal

Damn, good call!

After looking at some older posts, it turns out that amino acid calories aren't listed because of the FDA regulations.

I'm going to try dropping some of the xtend and see how that changes things. I haven't been counting that stuff, and I dose pretty heavy on it - enough to make sense of the caloric disparity I thought was going on.

[CeBKa]

Yes, whey is breaking your fast.

IMO, if you are eating post workout anyway then I would just ditch the bcaa's and save the dosh. It's only an hour or so. How much catabolism could even occur in that time. I'm thinking SFA.

Yea i wonder if you can train totally fasted and have a post-workout meal afterwards instead of bcaa's pre-WO. Martin doesn't mention that anywhere.

[vitornoob]

Damn, good call!

After looking at some older posts, it turns out that amino acid calories aren't listed because of the FDA regulations.

I'm going to try dropping some of the xtend and see how that changes things. I haven't been counting that stuff, and I dose pretty heavy on it - enough to make sense of the caloric disparity I thought was going on.

Free form amino are almost not diggested, so they say that you do not need to count
I am at phone now, but i have a article that explains...
Just google BCAA layne norton and alan aragon, somethinglike that

[IrishPilot]

Training is initiated on an empty stomach and after ingestion of 10 g BCAA or similar amino acid mixture. This "pre-workout" meal is not counted towards the feeding phase. Technically, training is not completely fasted - that would be detrimental. The pre-workout protein intake, with its stimulatory effect on protein synthesis and metabolism, is a crucial compromise to optimize results. The 8-hour feeding phase starts with the post-workout meal.

Regarding Bcaas and your fast.

[vitornoob]

training is not completely fasted



Manu WO without BCAA, there is no problem to go without them

[CeBKa]

training is not completely fasted



Manu WO without BCAA, there is no problem to go without them

Oh, good to know =]

[alemus]

Yes, whey is breaking your fast.

IMO, if you are eating post workout anyway then I would just ditch the bcaa's and save the dosh. It's only an hour or so. How much catabolism could even occur in that time. I'm thinking SFA.

^^^bumb, so true. I agree with jzpowahz

[docchio]

^^^bumb, so true. I agree with jzpowahz

I dont think Manu trains without BCAA's... I would like to hear this from himself. He gets them for free anyway, I'm fairly sure I recall him sayin one day that he drinks them at least a few times before breaking his fast.

[vitornoob]

I dont think Manu trains without BCAA's... I would like to hear this from himself. He gets them for free anyway, I'm fairly sure I recall him sayin one day that he drinks them at least a few times before breaking his fast.

See:

No BCAAs whatsoever now! Feel and see no difference whatsoever. Been running no BCAAs for a few weeks now. In fact, I feel stronger than ever in the gym. Go figure

[maltanarchy]

I dont think Manu trains without BCAA's... I would like to hear this from himself. He gets them for free anyway, I'm fairly sure I recall him sayin one day that he drinks them at least a few times before breaking his fast.

I posted on his log about training 100% fasted when I was first looking into IF.

Here are the responses I got:

Everything that Supaa-J said below. See especially bold.

The human body will take whatever you throw at it so long as your mental state is strong enough. What on Earth did we do before Branched Chain Amino Acid supplements? We survived and you will too. Just hit your 24hr energy balance (protein/cals) in meal timing that is convenient to you and you're golden.

This game is SO SIMPLE. You NEVER have to change the movements you do. You NEVER have to fret about post or pre workout meals. You can eat snickers everyday for the rest of your life and have veins in your hammies. It's all calorie counting and effort put into the best movements over the course of months, years and decades.

It's so simple I laugh when I talk to people about diet and exercise. Like, I could teach a 2 yr old how to do it properly.

In my reply I acknowledged that they basically reinforced what I had already suspected about diet being more important than supplements... Manu's response:

Right on, man. BCAAs are more of a placebo effect if anything at this point - IMO. There is nothing conclusive in the literature supporting it's effectiveness anyway. I have run IF/fasted training with and without BCAAs and to be very honest have noticed zero difference. I can get my BCAAs for free through my sponsor so that should say something right there. I choose to not use them but everyone should try and experiment for themselves if they choose to do so.

They key (as you mentioned) is being consistent with your cals and macros (especially protein) on a consistent basis. The other part that is highly underestimated is the training aspect. You really have to make every session count. Make and aim to make progress (even if just 1 rep increase) every time you step into the gym. Every session has to COUNT.

[volara]

Yea i wonder if you can train totally fasted and have a post-workout meal afterwards instead of bcaa's pre-WO. Martin doesn't mention that anywhere.

He does, check the protein synthesis section in the following article http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/ear...-training.html

[nkiritsis13]

I posted on his log about training 100% fasted when I was first looking into IF.

Here are the responses I got:


In my reply I acknowledged that they basically reinforced what I had already suspected about diet being more important than supplements... Manu's response:

SupaaJ makes a good point. A few years back when I had no idea what I was doing, I did 16 miles fasted on my stationary bike and then another 20 in the afternoon with very little food intake (and I didn't have xtend then), and I kept that up for a long time until I got my head right ha ha! I was a lot weaker then, too, being fresh enough out of treatment. The human body can take a LOT of abuse, and if skimping on BCAAs wasn't feasible, we as a species would have died out a long time ago!

Free form amino are almost not diggested, so they say that you do not need to count
I am at phone now, but i have a article that explains...
Just google BCAA layne norton and alan aragon, somethinglike that

Good info, thanks for the suggested reading. One of the Layne Norton articles mentions that with adequate protein intake, a lot of the BCAAs could end up as glucose. I'll save my money then, because I already eat a ton of protein as it stands. Any more that I do take, I'll be sure to properly account for after learning the hard way. Reassessing my general needs will be a bit touch and go since I was drinking enough to make a difference. Xtend was like my saving grace when I was sick for a few months, especially towards the end when it was at its worst.

Here is a segment from an interview with Layne that sums it up nicely about the calories:

On Caloric Value of Xtend/ BCAA effect on insulin

I am working with Dave, following a ketogenic diet and am a big fan of the Xtend product which I use during my workouts!
I am getting confusing messages about it’s calorie content! I had believed it was 0 but now not quite so sure! What is your take on it & also would it cause insulin secretion at all??

It does have calories. It has 5g of amino acids per scoop which is 4kcal/gram = 20 total kcals per scoop. The reason it is listed as 0 is because they FDA will not allow a company to list free form amino acids as having calories which is absolutely asinine. BCAAs will cause insulin secretion, read my post above yours in this thread.

On Counting BCAA towards Protein requirement:

But you personally do not count the BCAAs towards your protein count, you take them on top of your 1g/pound bodyweight protein, correct?

I count them

[alemus]

This link might help:
http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html
It covers some of the different protocols. I think there was another one, so I'll look around and see if I find anything.

I completely agree on the refeeding part. I would always get sick those days because of the disparity between my regular calories, and I always felt like my leptin didn't get enough of a recovery for them to support my cuts. On the leangains site, I think Martin even said he was sick of the little kid's meal portions throughout the day, and certainly agree. Going to bed hungry is out of the question, too.

I was going to try train fasted today, but I stuck with my normal 70 calories of oats and some pre-workout supps/BCAA. I never lifted fasted and would rather stick to just cardio if I can because the weight training needs 110% of my focus.

I read through the guide and it still doesnt explain what I'm looking for. It's because I train 2x/day sometimes. Weight train in the AM and I do my MMA in the pm but the pm workout is past my 8 hour feeding window so am I supposed to go to bed hungry because I get VERY hungry after any training session.

[jzpowahz]

I read through the guide and it still doesnt explain what I'm looking for. It's because I train 2x/day sometimes. Weight train in the AM and I do my MMA in the pm but the pm workout is past my 8 hour feeding window so am I supposed to go to bed hungry because I get VERY hungry after any training session.

I would personally start eating window later in the day and use some bcaa's after weights if you wish. I can't sleep if I'm starving and that is going to hinder recovery greatly.

[determined4000]

I read through the guide and it still doesnt explain what I'm looking for. It's because I train 2x/day sometimes. Weight train in the AM and I do my MMA in the pm but the pm workout is past my 8 hour feeding window so am I supposed to go to bed hungry because I get VERY hungry after any training session.

Then push back your feeding window
You dont NEED to eat a PWO meal right after weight training. I often train in the AM and dont eat for possibly 10-12 hours.
In my mind, the further my PWO meal is from training, the close my PreWO meal (pre-bed in my case) was to my training, so it all cancels out and all that matters is macros over 24 hour periods IMO.

[alemus]

I would personally start eating window later in the day and use some bcaa's after weights if you wish. I can't sleep if I'm starving and that is going to hinder recovery greatly.

Ok so does this 'tecnically mean to make my fasting longer? I fast right now 14-16hrs. Thanks so much for your reply :-D

[alemus]

Then push back your feeding window
You dont NEED to eat a PWO meal right after weight training. I often train in the AM and dont eat for possibly 10-12 hours.
In my mind, the further my PWO meal is from training, the close my PreWO meal (pre-bed in my case) was to my training, so it all cancels out and all that matters is macros over 24 hour periods IMO.

WOW! thank you so much. See I had this idea that I had to only fast for 14-16hrs so I wasnt training at night anymore and it was pissing me off! But I can prolong it up to 24 hrs right?? I just started this so Im having a HARD time eating alot of cals post workout (the original way I was doing but it will now change from this post). Im so used to the ****ty 6x/day meals!

[determined4000]

WOW! thank you so much. See I had this idea that I had to only fast for 14-16hrs so I wasnt training at night anymore and it was pissing me off! But I can prolong it up to 24 hrs right?? I just started this so Im having a HARD time eating alot of cals post workout (the original way I was doing but it will now change from this post). Im so used to the ****ty 6x/day meals!

Well you dont have to fast 24 hours. Just put your feeding window in the last 8 hours you are awake.
ex. Wake at 7am, weights at 8 am, 4pm start feeding window (MMA training somewhere in here) midnight- end feeding window (sleep)

Or if you want to eat somewhat earlier
ex. wake at 7am, train at 8 am, noon-start feeding (train MMA) 8pm stop eating, dont eat last 4 hours until bed.

Or anything in between the two approaches.