"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[tdod101]

Good tips. I think I'll grab a bench, the movement is supposed to replicate sitting in a chair so grabbing a bench seems like a logical choice.

[fluidZ]

Good tips. I think I'll grab a bench

I haven't tried that personally, but it's popular... I'm always worried I will trip over it, or accidentally sit down or something and get stapled, hahaha

[Imp81318]

I started out doing box squats to a bench, then progressed to just touching my butt off the bench when first learning to do squats. I found that I was constantly "searching" for the bench and over-exaggerating my hip extension looking for it as I lowered myself and things immediately started to feel better once I removed the bench.

That said, I am currently working on improving my squat form to remove butt wink, slow my descent, and stop dropping too low so maybe I'd be better off with the bench back there for a while again...

[tdod101]

I haven't tried that personally, but it's popular... I'm always worried I will trip over it, or accidentally sit down or something and get stapled, hahaha

That would suck.

[RK42]

but mine is supposed to run M(squat), W(Bench), F(Dead), S(Press) but I've shifted it around to M, T, T S to make sure I'm spacing out my squat and dead day evenly

Somewhat of a tangent, but it's impossible to space out two days evenly in a week. With squat on Monday and dead on Friday, you have two days between dead and squat (Saturday and Sunday). With squat on Monday and dead on Thursday, you have two days between squat and dead (Tuesday and Wednesday).

You can't space them evenly because the week has an odd number of days.

[Farley1324]

Somewhat of a tangent, but it's impossible to space out two days evenly in a week. With squat on Monday and dead on Friday, you have two days between dead and squat (Saturday and Sunday). With squat on Monday and dead on Thursday, you have two days between squat and dead (Tuesday and Wednesday).

You can't space them evenly because the week has an odd number of days.

Yup. When I run 5/3/1 at 4 days a week, one of the upper days (press or bench) and one of the lower days (squat or dead) is done with one extra day of rest on that part of the body due to this

[tdod101]

Any other opinions on my squat? I think it's better...not much, but a little.

[fluidZ]

Any other opinions on my squat? I think it's better...not much, but a little.

try posting in the exercise forum too.

[SteveC80]

When should a novice call it a fail?

At my gym the bench doesn't have safeties, so I don't go for a rep if I think I'm not going to make it.

If you're squatting and you have to grind out the 3rd rep on the 1st set, do you go for the 4th and 5th rep? When you fail and leave the bar on the safeties, you've got to unload the bar to put it back on the jhooks.

And then do that for the 2nd and 3rd set?

Or do you call it a fail at 3 reps, and maybe on the last set go for the max effort and fail?



Loving the novice program

[WolfRose7]

When should a novice call it a fail?

At my gym the bench doesn't have safeties, so I don't go for a rep if I think I'm not going to make it.

If you're squatting and you have to grind out the 3rd rep on the 1st set, do you go for the 4th and 5th rep? When you fail and leave the bar on the safeties, you've got to unload the bar to put it back on the jhooks.

And then do that for the 2nd and 3rd set?

Or do you call it a fail at 3 reps, and maybe on the last set go for the max effort and fail?



Loving the novice program

If any reps are on the 1st set a grind you probably due for a reset on that lift.
If you don;t get the reps for any reason that's a fail, (on any set). 2 fails on that lift on two back to back workouts is a reset.

Basically, if in doubt. Reset, re-watch good form video's, film your form if possible. Upload here or just watch yourself and use the time to improve it.

You will still contribute to strength and size working up with a lighter weight. And better motor patterns than avoiding resets.

Again, if in doubt. Form videos, upload to youtube (unlisted works fine) post here or in the exercise section

Oh and if you do ditch the bar on the safeties for something like Squats, take at least 5 minutes rest. If it was due to the weight take 5kg off and do your next set with that.

[fluidZ]

When should a novice call it a fail?

At my gym the bench doesn't have safeties, so I don't go for a rep if I think I'm not going to make it.

If you're squatting and you have to grind out the 3rd rep on the 1st set, do you go for the 4th and 5th rep? When you fail and leave the bar on the safeties, you've got to unload the bar to put it back on the jhooks.

And then do that for the 2nd and 3rd set?

Or do you call it a fail at 3 reps, and maybe on the last set go for the max effort and fail?



Loving the novice program

How hard you push yourself is entirely up to you. Listen to your body though, and always err on the side of caution. Sometimes though, you just gotta turn up the music, get pumped, and grunt as loud as you can.

Other times, you need to just give up and call it a fail. If your dealing with a minor pain or injury, or having a miserable day, then I would say it's ok to give yourself a day off and not count a fail... just really scrutinize your decisions and constantly ask yourself, would it be better if I reset the weight a bit?


Concerning bench, not having safeties is no excuse to not push yourself on bench. Get a spotter. You can also bench in the power rack. Or you can do floor benches. I would suggest while you are low weights, at least one time saying '**** it' and go for the damn bench on your own regardless. The adrenaline kicks in, and you find yourself pushing harder than you thought you could. It may still not be enough, but a roll of shame would be worth it IMO.

(hopefully I don't get a massive neg for that last part)

[TnTNZ]

You can't space them evenly because the week has an odd number of days.

With squat on Monday and dead on Friday, you have two days between dead and squat (Saturday and Sunday). With squat on Monday and dead on Thursday, you have two days between squat and dead (Tuesday and Wednesday).

Good, you've worked out why I did it

I have other reasons for putting a day between deadlift day and another exercise day. Mostly it's due to giving an extra day for CNS recovery between Deadlift and squat, where I personally need it. I recover quicker from squatting than I do deadlifts.

[TnTNZ]

Concerning bench, not having safeties is no excuse to not push yourself on bench. Get a spotter. You can also bench in the power rack. Or you can do floor benches. I would suggest while you are low weights, at least one time saying '**** it' and go for the damn bench on your own regardless. The adrenaline kicks in, and you find yourself pushing harder than you thought you could. It may still not be enough, but a roll of shame would be worth it IMO.

(hopefully I don't get a massive neg for that last part)

No but I'm absolutely going to call you out on it. There are reasons you can't bench with safeties, ie. no power rack, no spotter available, (and even then spotters are not fail safe), then it's entirely reasonable to not push it. Grinding out reps with sh!tty form is not the best way to gain strength, but it's a great way to injure yourself. Sub-maximal training has you leaving at least one good rep in the tank.

Then, whilst rare, there is actually the safety component, around about 5 weeks ago down here in Aus a young lad, 15 years old, benching in a gym by himself, got himself trapped under 100kg. Was stuck there for 30 minutes with that barbell across his throat, and ended up dying. There are horror stories everywhere of barbells being dropped on throats, heads. Not sure I've ever heard of anyone dying from deadlifting or squatting.

Safeties are important.

[Farley1324]

RE: Bench safety

Watch it V




The bar does not pass over your neck/throat/face/head unless your elbows are locked out. And wrap your thumb around the bar. Elbows only bend to take the bar out of the hooks, and to descend towards your chest to start a rep (then back up to complete lockout still over your chest)..if you are unable to finish the rep, and you must lower/drop the bar, this is only to happen over your chest. Period. And wrap your thumb around the bar.

With novice weights getting the bar stuck over your chest probably isn't a huge deal, although it is best avoided of course. Keyword, chest. Do it right, every weight, every time.

[SteveC80]

Thanks for the replies, reps given.


Squats 3x5 @85kg felt hard.

Is it normal that at 90kg I only managed 3, 2, and 2?

Felt like a massive step up in weight. I thought I would get at least 3x4. I already reset at 90kg a few weeks ago.

Ps. I am gaining weight

[Farley1324]

Thanks for the replies, reps given.


Squats 3x5 @85kg felt hard.

Is it normal that at 90kg I only managed 3, 2, and 2?

Felt like a massive step up in weight. I thought I would get at least 3x4. I already reset at 90kg a few weeks ago.

Ps. I am gaining weight

Can you add 2.5kg at a time?

How long did you rest between sets?

How much is bodyweight up since you rest at 90kg, and exactly how long ago was that Height and weight?

[SteveC80]

I could drop to 2.5kg, but I was trying to stick to the programs progress.

3 min rests, I think @85kg the week before I had 4mins on the last set to make sure I got it.

My last reset was 90kgs, on Nov 7th. I weighed 85.1kg(end of cut) and now I'm 87.9kg. I'm 6ft2

[tdod101]

Still can't get a critique on my squat form.

[fluidZ]

Still can't get a critique on my squat form.

did you post in exercise forum too? bump there

[tdod101]

did you post in exercise forum too? bump there

I did, criticism unubtanium

[TnTNZ]

Still can't get a critique on my squat form.

Aside from the lower back rounding at the bottom of the squat. I thought it looked pretty good. Bar path is solid, and moving well.

Lower back rounding: This can be due to several things, the two most common are. Not bracing hard enough, going well below parallel. I think you're suffering from both.

So bracing. Big belly breath and hold it, and tighten up like you're gonna get punched in the stomach. Also with the bar. Death grip, on that sucker and try bending the bar over your shoulders, like your doing a lat pull down.

Cutting depth: Play with your stance width, the wider your stance, the less deep you'll go. But when you do this, make sure you're driving your knees out.

[Imp81318]

Yeah it is rounded alright. Stop going past parallel and take another video.

I tried slowing my descent down a bit, and tried to stop at parallel this time. Better? What more should I be working on? I felt myself shifting forward a few times, and can see the bar travelled front on a few of the reps so I know I need to work on controlling that more.

Set 1:
http://youtu.be/7iEdtkqDyZw

Set 2:
http://youtu.be/d-j9V-dj2Zs

Set 3:
http://youtu.be/0lbaXPB_Wq4

[JacksonGrant97]

Hi Davis,

I have been doing the intermediate Upper/Lower program for a few months now and have seen good results. My back has been hurting these past couple months, and I went to the physio to which I was told I have anterior pelvic tilt. He told me to remove all exercises that I find uncomfortable doing (which put a load on the back), which include bent over rows and pendlay rows from the upper, which I have replaced with close grip and wide grip cable rows since it is easier on the back. I have also removed squats, romanian deadlifts, back extensions and front squats from the lower, which is pretty much all the main movements. My current lower day consists of lunges, leg extensions, leg curls, calfs and abs. I cannot do leg press either since I do not have one at home. Are there any other exercises I should incorporate for lower days, and are the replacements for the rows sweet as well?
Thanks in advance dude!

[tommy4life]

Hi Davis,

I have been doing the intermediate Upper/Lower program for a few months now and have seen good results. My back has been hurting these past couple months, and I went to the physio to which I was told I have anterior pelvic tilt. He told me to remove all exercises that I find uncomfortable doing (which put a load on the back), which include bent over rows and pendlay rows from the upper, which I have replaced with close grip and wide grip cable rows since it is easier on the back. I have also removed squats, romanian deadlifts, back extensions and front squats from the lower, which is pretty much all the main movements. My current lower day consists of lunges, leg extensions, leg curls, calfs and abs. I cannot do leg press either since I do not have one at home. Are there any other exercises I should incorporate for lower days, and are the replacements for the rows sweet as well?
Thanks in advance dude!

Probably shouldn't be doing leg extensive if your APT is that bad.

Are you sure the pain isnt being caused by bad form or something else. My APT is still pretty bad after 12 months (beginning to think posture issues can't be fixed with just exercise, you need to practise good posture all day long and reduce sitting time) but i do squats and RDLs fine...my back actually feels better. But if they ause pain so be it... you can try heavy walking lunges 3x6 (each leg), hip thrusts 3x10, leg curl 3x10, finiahed off with abs.

Maybe post your Pendlay row form too, they shouldn't be hard on your back.

[JacksonGrant97]

Probably shouldn't be doing leg extensive if your APT is that bad.

Are you sure the pain isnt being caused by bad form or something else. My APT is still pretty bad after 12 months (beginning to think posture issues can't be fixed with just exercise, you need to practise good posture all day long and reduce sitting time) but i do squats and RDLs fine...my back actually feels better. But if they ause pain so be it... you can try heavy walking lunges 3x6 (each leg), hip thrusts 3x10, leg curl 3x10, finiahed off with abs.

Maybe post your Pendlay row form too, they shouldn't be hard on your back.

Hey man, thanks for the response. The physio has given me some core exercises to do at home, but told me to continue the exercises I'm doing, except for the ones that cause me pain. With rows, as soon as I bend over with weight in my hands, my lower back starts killing. I'm also pretty certain my form is on point, my lower back just reacts poorly when any load is put on it. Same with RDL's. As for squats, my mobility and posture won't let me full squat, and I get that butt wink thing if I do, but I am trying to work on that because I really hate lunges and just wanna squat again. And I will incorporate hip thrusts into my routine. Also, are cable rows a good alternative for bent over rows/pendlay rows? If there's anything better, what is it? Thank you so much dude!

[tdod101]

Aside from the lower back rounding at the bottom of the squat. I thought it looked pretty good. Bar path is solid, and moving well.

Lower back rounding: This can be due to several things, the two most common are. Not bracing hard enough, going well below parallel. I think you're suffering from both.

So bracing. Big belly breath and hold it, and tighten up like you're gonna get punched in the stomach. Also with the bar. Death grip, on that sucker and try bending the bar over your shoulders, like your doing a lat pull down.

Cutting depth: Play with your stance width, the wider your stance, the less deep you'll go. But when you do this, make sure you're driving your knees out.

I'm bracing hard, if I go any harder I'm gonna poop my pants, I'm trying my best to do the valsalva movement before every rep.

[CooolStoryBro]

IN FAO DavisSJ wrote:

"How much weight should I use? I highly advise to start out lighter than you think you can handle since the progression is very fast. I can’t stress this enough! This program works best with lighter starting weights. I suggest all lifters, regardless of experience, start with 85% of what they think they can lift. You should not be struggling for 4-6 weeks or so. "

Now by 85% he means 85% of my one rep max, so if I do 210 lbs bench press i should do 3x5 178 lbs bench press? It seems like hell of a lot of weight!

Or he mean 85% of what I think I can do for all sets. So if I think i could do 3x5 150lbs then I should do 3x5 127lbs???

Best regards

[WolfRose7]

IN FAO DavisSJ wrote:

"How much weight should I use? I highly advise to start out lighter than you think you can handle since the progression is very fast. I can’t stress this enough! This program works best with lighter starting weights. I suggest all lifters, regardless of experience, start with 85% of what they think they can lift. You should not be struggling for 4-6 weeks or so. "

Now by 85% he means 85% of my one rep max, so if I do 210 lbs bench press i should do 3x5 178 lbs bench press? It seems like hell of a lot of weight!

Or he mean 85% of what I think I can do for all sets. So if I think i could do 3x5 150lbs then I should do 3x5 127lbs???

Best regards

85% of what you think you could do for those sets/reps

[CooolStoryBro]

85% of what you think you could do for those sets/reps

Brilliant! As if it would be first option then i was thinking that I am a real pussy as no way i could do that

[tommy4life]

Hey man, thanks for the response. The physio has given me some core exercises to do at home, but told me to continue the exercises I'm doing, except for the ones that cause me pain. With rows, as soon as I bend over with weight in my hands, my lower back starts killing. I'm also pretty certain my form is on point, my lower back just reacts poorly when any load is put on it. Same with RDL's. As for squats, my mobility and posture won't let me full squat, and I get that butt wink thing if I do, but I am trying to work on that because I really hate lunges and just wanna squat again. And I will incorporate hip thrusts into my routine. Also, are cable rows a good alternative for bent over rows/pendlay rows? If there's anything better, what is it? Thank you so much dude!

Fair enough, not sure whats happening with your lower back there matey.
In regards to squats, keep working on hip mobility (i use the Agile 11 mobility work) and maybe try squating a bit higher, just at parallel. Its too bad you hate lunges, heavy walking have been a great add in for me.
Lastly, in regards to rows. Doing them with the cables is fine, just use a wide bar and bring it to your lower chest (elbows out).