"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[WolfRose7]

I have been lifting 3 years (incorrectly and inconsistently)
Bench - 80kg
Squat - 65kg
Deadlift - 70kg

I have been following the intermediate routine for a few months (my lifts were worse than that before) as I may have mistakenly thought this is what I was?
Should I be doing the novice routine? or should I be doing the intermediate? The weight is increasing bi-weekly as per the progression plan and I feel I am recovering ok (down to creatine maybe)

probably should run the novice,
Might need to stick with the intermediate progression for bench though,
how much do you weigh?

[RAVXR23]

6ft 2 13st 10

[Farley1324]

That's because the majority of well-educated people are desperate to cling to their tier of social stratification, and language correctness is a mighty fine tool of exclusion.

Who really determines when something enters the collective phrasal lexicon?

Why is "selfie" now a word in the dictionary, and not improper slang?

Yeah..."selfie" is only a "word" because people heard a different word or phrase that sounds like 'selfie', only they have no idea how to spell it correctly...wait what?

Can you point out the word or phrase that sounds like selfie and is actually correct?

Personally, my views are that language should be more inclusive, not less so. So when an eggcorn becomes so popular to the point it takes on a slightly different meaning / connotation, there is no reason that it does not then become "acceptable."

Maybe I'm missing something...can you explain the different meaning of "intensive purposes" as compared to "intents and purposes"?

This is the evolution of language. And as with all change, many try to conserve what once was by reinforcing the old status quo.

I ain't got no time fo dis


ETA: To be clear, "selfie" is a horrible attempt at a comparison because there was no single word in existence that meant "self shot photograph of self" or whatever. But it's a common thing people do now, so having a word for it is useful. That is so far removed from people hearing one thing and thinking it's something completely different I honestly wonder if you are trolling or srs right now. "Intensive purposes" would better compare to "I should of done that", which of course, originates from the word "should've" which stands for "should have", making "should of" just plain wrong...same as "intensive purposes" or "I have zero taller ants for this"

[WolfRose7]

6ft 2 13st 10

Definitely run the novice.

[RAVXR23]

Definitely run the novice.

How should i manage the rest of this week?

I will run the novice, it will be very strange doing so little but I have faith in the program, lets hope I gain quicker!

[WolfRose7]

How should i manage the rest of this week?

I will run the novice, it will be very strange doing so little but I have faith in the program, lets hope I gain quicker!

Doesn't matter really, you can finish the week if you like
Or just start the novice tomorrow

[Farley1324]

How should i manage the rest of this week?

I will run the novice, it will be very strange doing so little but I have faith in the program, lets hope I gain quicker!

Before you say it is doing "so little", take a step back and look at the rate of progression + the frequency of performing the main lifts. Hitting the same muscles 48 hours later isn't something you can do, time after time, week after week, if you hit the volume hard

[sfgiants13]

This is more of a rant/me trying to figure out what on earth is going on. For the better part of a year, my major lifts have completely stalled (bench 225 , shoulder press 150 , squat 295). The other exercises slowly are increasing. I've had a couple of back injuries during that time and I was cutting for about 2 months, but that's still a lot of time otherwise where I should be gaining. I've deloaded twice on all of them to no avail. I'm currently eating around 3000 calories which puts me at about 2 pounds per month gain. I hit my protein 99% of the time while also hitting fiber and micros most of the time as well. I just moved 2 weeks ago to the 5 day split hoping that additional exercises like decline DB press and deadlifts will get me going again where I was on the intermediate upper lower prior to that. I've been cutting back on booze from twice a week since that's not helping me either.

/rant

[Farley1324]

This is more of a rant/me trying to figure out what on earth is going on. For the better part of a year, my major lifts have completely stalled (bench 225 , shoulder press 150 , squat 295). The other exercises slowly are increasing. I've had a couple of back injuries during that time and I was cutting for about 2 months, but that's still a lot of time otherwise where I should be gaining. I've deloaded twice on all of them to no avail. I'm currently eating around 3000 calories which puts me at about 2 pounds per month gain. I hit my protein 99% of the time while also hitting fiber and micros most of the time as well. I just moved 2 weeks ago to the 5 day split hoping that additional exercises like decline DB press and deadlifts will get me going again where I was on the intermediate upper lower prior to that. I've been cutting back on booze from twice a week since that's not helping me either.

/rant

What programs have you been following?

Two deloads in "better part of a year" being stalled seems rather infrequent, but then you listed a lot of stuff so a lifting-timeline is unclear.

How much total bodyweight have you gained during this time?

[sfgiants13]

What programs have you been following?

Two deloads in "better part of a year" being stalled seems rather infrequent, but then you listed a lot of stuff so a lifting-timeline is unclear.

How much total bodyweight have you gained during this time?

I'm about 10 pounds heavier than I was at this time last year. I originally started with a slight cut from 185 and went down to 170. I then lean bulked for over a year to 190 and did a small cut from June-early August this past summer down to about 180. I'm now at 185 and gaining. There were a couple of back injuries that kept me out for a week or two at a time and I started working my way back up on the exercises that used my back a lot such as squats/deadlifts. That probably took a few weeks to get myself back to where I was normal or close to it. I started on the novice program about 2 years ago and made great progress but started stalling so I switched to intermediate and did that for the past year with very little progress. 2 weeks ago I moved to the 5 day split.

[fluidZ]

I ain't got no time fo dis

Agreed!

Back to bodybuilding now (((--------)))

I have been lifting 3 years (incorrectly and inconsistently)
Bench - 80kg
Squat - 65kg
Deadlift - 70kg

I have been following the intermediate routine for a few months (my lifts were worse than that before) as I may have mistakenly thought this is what I was?

Should I be doing the novice routine? or should I be doing the intermediate? The weight is increasing bi-weekly as per the progression plan and I feel I am recovering ok (down to creatine maybe)

DEFINITELY GO BACK TO THE NOVICE PROGRAM!!!!!

[coeur]

How often should one expect to fail and reset on the intermediate U/L program? On average?

I seem to be constantly doing this. I've made pretty good progress on my deadlift this way, but my OHP for example keeps stalling at around the same weight. I knocked 50 lbs off my squat to correct my form. I've reset my bench a few times too. I feel like I'm progressing at a far slower rate than should be expected. I've been lifting for 2 and a half years and I wonder too if my lifts don't really qualify me for an intermediate level program (Dead 265/Squat 215/Bench 125/OHP 80). I've definitely used up all of my noob gains, though. I didn't really start taking lifting seriously until a year into it.

What can I do? I know that I'm eating enough--I weigh and record everything down to the gram, and sleep is the #1 priority in my life. I do supplement with creatine and beta alanine. I eat nearly 1.5g protein per lb of body weight, and even more carbs.

[Farley1324]

How often should one expect to fail and reset on the intermediate U/L program? On average?

I seem to be constantly doing this. I've made pretty good progress on my deadlift this way, but my OHP for example keeps stalling at around the same weight. I knocked 50 lbs off my squat to correct my form. I've reset my bench a few times too. I feel like I'm progressing at a far slower rate than should be expected. I've been lifting for 2 and a half years and I wonder too if my lifts don't really qualify me for an intermediate level program (Dead 265/Squat 215/Bench 125/OHP 80). I've definitely used up all of my noob gains, though. I didn't really start taking lifting seriously until a year into it.

What can I do? I know that I'm eating enough and sleep is the #1 priority in my life.

What is one's age, sex, and calorie/protein/bodyweight gain situation?

After 2.5 years of lifting for a 26 year old (your profile) male (assuming) who is healthy and doing things even half properly, I would expect far, far better numbers than what you listed. Those are novice numbers I'd expect to see part way through a novice program in the first two or three months of lifting.

[coeur]

What is one's age, sex, and calorie/protein/bodyweight gain situation?

After 2.5 years of lifting for a 26 year old (your profile) male (assuming) who is healthy and doing things even half properly, I would expect far, far better numbers than what you listed. Those are novice numbers I'd expect to see part way through a novice program in the first two or three months of lifting.

Female, 5'2", 150 lbs. 2750-2900 calories per day, depending on physical activity. Yeah, I'm pretty frustrated with it. 27-28% bf last time I checked

[Farley1324]

Female, 5'2", 150 lbs. 2750-2900 calories per day, depending on physical activity. Yeah, I'm pretty frustrated with it. 27-28% bf last time I checked

Well that's quite different. Females have a much more difficult time developing muscle or strength, and you are pretty small as well. I'm not particularly familiar with 'strength standards' for females but off the cuff those numbers don't seem bad at all.

[coeur]

Well that's quite different. Females have a much more difficult time developing muscle or strength, and you are pretty small as well. I'm not particularly familiar with 'strength standards' for females but off the cuff those numbers don't seem bad at all.

Shouldn't the linear progression on this program be identical to a male, though? Regardless of the numbers themselves, I'm frustrated that I keep having to reset them.

[Farley1324]

Shouldn't the linear progression on this program be identical to a male, though? Regardless of the numbers themselves, I'm frustrated that I keep having to reset them.

"Identical", no, because women can't progress as quickly as men. I think it should be similar, but numbers will be lower, including the numbers added week to week.

[fluidZ]

How often should one expect to fail and reset on the intermediate U/L program? On average?

I seem to be constantly doing this. I've made pretty good progress on my deadlift this way, but my OHP for example keeps stalling at around the same weight. I knocked 50 lbs off my squat to correct my form. I've reset my bench a few times too. I feel like I'm progressing at a far slower rate than should be expected. I've been lifting for 2 and a half years and I wonder too if my lifts don't really qualify me for an intermediate level program (Dead 265/Squat 215/Bench 125/OHP 80). I've definitely used up all of my noob gains, though. I didn't really start taking lifting seriously until a year into it.

What can I do? I know that I'm eating enough--I weigh and record everything down to the gram, and sleep is the #1 priority in my life. I do supplement with creatine and beta alanine. I eat nearly 1.5g protein per lb of body weight, and even more carbs.

Honestly, your numbers aren't too far off from megsquats, and she is a professional powerlifter...

The last time I checked one of her PR videos, I think she is around 400 dead, 275 squat, 145 bench.

She is 5'3 and (purportedly) not on gear.

In other words, I'm actually impressed with your numbers..

If you keep stalling on OHP (common for most people) then you can tweak your workout a bit... there are a lot of threads on overcoming OHP stalls.

You could also try the 5 day routine

[coeur]

"Identical", no, because women can't progress as quickly as men. I think it should be similar, but numbers will be lower, including the numbers added week to week.

In that case, how should I plan out my progression on F5? Should I reset after 3 failed weeks instead of 2, should I add less weight/add weight less frequently? I'm afraid to spin my wheels too much with all of this backtracking.

[davisj3537]

In that case, how should I plan out my progression on F5? Should I reset after 3 failed weeks instead of 2, should I add less weight/add weight less frequently? I'm afraid to spin my wheels too much with all of this backtracking.

It's in the FAQ. Add half as much weight. Add a rep if you can't add that little of an increase for that week.

[coeur]

It's in the FAQ. Add half as much weight. Add a rep if you can't add that little of an increase for that week.

I thought that only applied to the novice program, but okay. Hopefully I'll be making more linear progress this way.

[davisj3537]

I thought that only applied to the novice program, but okay. Hopefully I'll be making more linear progress this way.

Oh right you're not running novice. I would consider applying a similar style to your progression though.

[ChrisWhite90]

Couple of questions Davis.

Tonight I ran with the Upper A of your split routine;

OHP
Flyes
Pullups
Pendlay Rows
Face pull S/S Tri Press

1) On the pull ups, should I sub these for Lat pull downs as I struggle to only perform one pull up with good form unassisted as I currently weigh 210lbs OR should I do what I did tonight and get 8 reps using a pull up assist machine?
2) Never done Pendlay rows before, so kept it light (40KG) with the bar resting on some 25kg plates as I have quite long legs, however I felt afterwards like I was hitting my lower back a bit to much. I checked my form multiple times and was keeping my back flat with a neutral neck too, is this normal? I also felt like I was using quite a bit of Bi's and Tri's on this movement, again is this normal?

[fluidZ]

Couple of questions Davis.

Tonight I ran with the Upper A of your split routine;

1) On the pull ups, should I sub these for Lat pull downs as I struggle to only perform one pull up with good form unassisted as I currently weigh 210lbs OR should I do what I did tonight and get 8 reps using a pull up assist machine?

yes. or do assisted pullup.

2) Never done Pendlay rows before, so kept it light (40KG) with the bar resting on some 25kg plates as I have quite long legs, however I felt afterwards like I was hitting my lower back a bit to much. I checked my form multiple times and was keeping my back flat with a neutral neck too, is this normal? I also felt like I was using quite a bit of Bi's and Tri's on this movement, again is this normal?

Also with the flat back, make sure your back is parallel to the floor. Starting these at around your weight, I was having constant balance issues for the first couple weeks.

Also, you want to pull with your elbows, with a widish grip... pretend your forearms and hands are just along for the ride. If you pull with your arms straight down then the bar should go somewhere near your sternum, not chest or belly. There should be NO tricep engagement in this at all, at least no discernable one.

Also, I've never felt biceps on this movement. Your arms will bend a little bit, but not as much as compared even to a pullup or lat pulldown in my case.. You may need to take a bit wider grip, and make sure you are parallel. Also, make sure you are using OVERHAND grip..

ALSO ALSO, I use the lighter weight barbells so that way I can load up bigger plates... thus so you can get the bar closer to your sternum... i wouldn't put plates underneath, because you are supposed to EXPLODE up and then let it drop down... this causes a lot of force, even at 40kg

I started with the short barbell for curling, then moved to the 33kg female oly bar.. I'm at 1 plate now, thus saving me weeks of progression to get that extra inch or two of height needed


here are the videos that helped me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Weu9HMHdiDA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlRrIsoDpKg (mr pendlay himself)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8l_8chR5BE


and yes.. this exercise is VERY EASY to cheat on. you have to be strict with yourself in only counting reps that actually touch your body... and no using your legs to get the bar going... and no you cant bounce the bar off the floor... wait in between reps.. and no, you shouldn't bend up your back up to get the bar going, and no you shouldn't bend your back DOWN to tap the bar with your chest (although I do this slightly sometimes haha)

[davisj3537]

Post a video of Pendlay. Tough lift to give much advice on as there are a few ways you can mess it up.

Lot of good stuff posted by fluidz.

[ChrisWhite90]

yes. or do assisted pullup.



Also with the flat back, make sure your back is parallel to the floor. Starting these at around your weight, I was having constant balance issues for the first couple weeks.

Also, you want to pull with your elbows, with a widish grip... pretend your forearms and hands are just along for the ride. If you pull with your arms straight down then the bar should go somewhere near your sternum, not chest or belly. There should be NO tricep engagement in this at all, at least no discernable one.

Also, I've never felt biceps on this movement. Your arms will bend a little bit, but not as much as compared even to a pullup or lat pulldown in my case.. You may need to take a bit wider grip, and make sure you are parallel. Also, make sure you are using OVERHAND grip..

ALSO ALSO, I use the lighter weight barbells so that way I can load up bigger plates... thus so you can get the bar closer to your sternum... i wouldn't put plates underneath, because you are supposed to EXPLODE up and then let it drop down... this causes a lot of force, even at 40kg

I started with the short barbell for curling, then moved to the 33kg female oly bar.. I'm at 1 plate now, thus saving me weeks of progression to get that extra inch or two of height needed


here are the videos that helped me:




and yes.. this exercise is VERY EASY to cheat on. you have to be strict with yourself in only counting reps that actually touch your body... and no using your legs to get the bar going... and no you cant bounce the bar off the floor... wait in between reps.. and no, you shouldn't bend up your back up to get the bar going, and no you shouldn't bend your back DOWN to tap the bar with your chest (although I do this slightly sometimes haha)

Thanks very much for all the advice, good tip using the smaller bar so that I can put bigger plates on there. I'll try get partner to film a video of me next time doing the row for a form check. from watching one of the video's I think my feet might have been too close to the bar as I was using a deadlift stance of covering the shoelaces.

One thing that is really conflicting in nearly every video i've seen is that some people tuck there elbows in at about 45 degrees, however your images posted for how to perform the move shows elbows flaired almost 90 degrees to your body, is this mearly going to target different areas of the back?

[fluidZ]

Thanks very much for all the advice, good tip using the smaller bar so that I can put bigger plates on there. I'll try get partner to film a video of me next time doing the row for a form check. from watching one of the video's I think my feet might have been too close to the bar as I was using a deadlift stance of covering the shoelaces.

definitely wrong stance... hard to keep proper form with the bar that close... and making yourself work harder.. in deadlift your shoulders are slightly in front of bar... here, they need to be straight down.. I would have fallen over :P so grats on not dying on your first set of rows

One thing that is really conflicting in nearly every video i've seen is that some people tuck there elbows in at about 45 degrees, however your images posted for how to perform the move shows elbows flaired almost 90 degrees to your body, is this mearly going to target different areas of the back?

this is probably just individual anatomy or style... I don't even think about my elbows.. I just take a wide grip and pull it up as fast as I can. Just remember you are pulling with your elbows, not your hands, so adjust yourself to whatever gives you the most power with a wide grip.

[davisj3537]

One thing that is really conflicting in nearly every video i've seen is that some people tuck there elbows in at about 45 degrees, however your images posted for how to perform the move shows elbows flaired almost 90 degrees to your body, is this mearly going to target different areas of the back?

45 is correct. I should redo the photos, but I'm lazy. That position is very painful for my hip and not exactly looking forward to two weeks of pain to redo a picture haha

[LEWCA]

If switching front squats for deadlifts should I maintain the 3x5 or drop down to 1x5?

[Jonnb5]

Hey brotha I got a question, would it be alright if I added 10 lbs instead of 5 lbs for certain upper body exercises i'm excelling in?