Pecs: help, I am about to cry

[Serpentarius]

Interesting. Do you have a source for that?

Not to be rude, but i dont link things so people can find things on their own, but new information and data is out there. That said, if someone wants to do slow bro stuff, they should stick to it.

[Mrpb]

Not to be rude, but i dont link things so people can find things on their own, but new information and data is out there. That said, if someone wants to do slow bro stuff, they should stick to it.

OK I've searched for it and found this referenced article by Bret Contreras. He claims:

Therefore, fast movements do not provide as much muscle tension as slow movements through most of the ROM, suggesting that faster repetitions, such as those performed with ‘explosive’ exercises may not produce optimal strength increases through a muscle’s full ROM.

This would apply to hypertrophy as well, various muscles involved in the initial stages of the lift may be stressed very well during explosive movements while other muscles involved at the conclusion of the lift may not be stressed very well.

http://bretcontreras.com/best-reps-f...ific-purposes/

I don't know who is right here. Would sure like to hear/read others on it.

[Serpentarius]

OK I've searched for it and found this referenced article by Bret Contreras. He claims:


http://bretcontreras.com/best-reps-f...ific-purposes/

I don't know who is right here. Would sure like to hear/read others on it.

right, like i mentioned it just takes more working sets. It is know that it happens faster with something like 6-10 vs 3-5 for that given session but as long as you bring up the workload the same effect will still happen. Some programs still have you do triples for "hypertrophy work", but it takes more sets.
So for overall time in months there wouldnt be any difference, there would only if you didnt compensate for it.

[GravityLee]

Op just based on everything you said i think these are your issues

1 you dont eat enough or the right things
2 form might not be good on some exercises
3 youre not progressive ie last month you were benching 50 lb dumbbells, this month youre doing 60 lb dumbbells, you hope to do the 70s next month
4 you do the same exercises instead of swapping some out every 10 weeks
5 related muscle groups routines are soft ie do you have a plan to hit front, side, rear delt
6 you have no idea what youre eating but its not enough to add fat or muscle
7 mostly you dont eat enough

[matmonkey46]

I appreciate the advice, everyone. I'm really confused by a lot of it, however.

I spent a year doing 5-8 reps to failure on EVERY SINGLE SET, 2 days a week for chest and arms. I was getting way stronger, but not growing at all, which is the opposite of what I wanted. After reading some threads on this site, I learned that I should be doing less weight more reps to cause hypertrophy. It definitely worked for my arms over the second year of lifting, (I know, but you should have seen them before.) My chest thickened out at the top, but not at all on the bottom.

Why do people keep suggesting 5x5 when my goal is not strength? From what I read and have experienced, low reps is a less efficient way to my goal, so I don't understand... what am I missing here? Also, everyone says do more incline, which also doesn't seem to address my concern of lower pecs. My upper pecs have grown a lot, it's the lateral and lower portions are not... Are people not reading the question when responding or is there some component of this that I need to understand better?

What specifically is the purpose of dropping the circuit? My thinking here was that, in addition to being considerate to other users, doing a set of curls in between chest exercises maximized my rest and allows me to increase the weight for the appropriate time under tension for each set. Help me understand what is wrong with this style. If doing them together is better, I definitely will, I just want to understand why

Also, I think I downplayed how hard I have worked my chest - Recently it has been once a week because I have had a lot going on, but it was twice a week and ultra sore every time, I was eating at least 120g protein and 5g creatine every day. I plan to up my clean calories a lot now that I'm back from vacation, any other suggestions?

If you were getting stronger but lacked size, you weren't eating enough!
Go back to what you WERE doing and eat, ALOT. Shoot for AT LEAST 225 grams protein, 350 carbs, and then run with it! Don't second guess anything

[Tommy W.]

I spent a year doing 5-8 reps to failure on EVERY SINGLE SET, 2 days a week for chest and arms. I was getting way stronger, but not growing at all, which is the opposite of what I wanted.

You want to do 1 day a week like this and 1 day in the 8-12 range.

[UglyNerd]

You're not going to build a big, thick chest by doing a circuit. You're just simply not inducing enough absolute muscular tension to stimulate growth. Muscle growth is both myofibilliar (thickening of the muscle fibers) and sarcoplasmic (non-contratile components such as glycogen storage and fluid retention.) Doing "circuit training" as you are now, is only going to induce the sarcoplasmic side of hypertrophy. This will cause you to look "fuller," but if you're not inducing any myofibilliar growth then you're going to be limited by how big you get.

What would be better for you, is to do a more traditional set up, where you start with 3-4 sets db flat bench for 6-10, then 3-4 sets db incline for 8-12, then move to the pec deck and cable flies. Those you can do the way you're doing it now.

Why does a longer rest period not induce myofibilliar growth? Do you know of any good articles that explain this concept?

[Serpentarius]

Why does a longer rest period not induce myofibilliar growth? Do you know of any good articles that explain this concept?

There is just no real overload doing it the way you are doing, you will need to keep adding weight to the lift if you do the same reps and sets. Dont worry about the science behind it, you need a bigger and bigger stimulus, however....google on your own if you want to learn, the information is out there.
1g protein per lb of lbm is enough

[Jasonk282]

Why does a longer rest period not induce myofibilliar growth? Do you know of any good articles that explain this concept?

you need a heavier load to induce that kind of growth. 1-5 reps for 3-5 sets

[BioSmith91]

right, like i mentioned it just takes more working sets. It is know that it happens faster with something like 6-10 vs 3-5 for that given session but as long as you bring up the workload the same effect will still happen. Some programs still have you do triples for "hypertrophy work", but it takes more sets.
So for overall time in months there wouldnt be any difference, there would only if you didnt compensate for it.

Its bad logic to say "all you have to do is equate workloads between the two." Even Jason in your video admits that the hypertrophy rep range is the most time efficient manner. Well, if you can do the same amount of work in less time, standard logic pretty much follows that you can do more work in the same amount of time. Meaning, all that extra time you just spend trying to equate your volume to mine, I just spend doing even more work.

I've never seen a program that uses triples for hypertrophy work. I've seen plenty of hypertrophy programs that utilize triples in order to improve a trainee's power, which gives a synergistic effect when combined with more traditional hypertrophy work.

This leads me to my next point. Regardless of what your goals are, you should always include a bit of everything into your programming. Low rep work for strength and power is an extremely useful tool even for someone who strictly wants to maximize hypertrophy. But please, stop trying to convince yourself that low rep strength work is all you need for muscular hypertrophy. Just incorporate both, your results will thank you for it.

[Serpentarius]

But please, stop trying to convince yourself that low rep strength work is all you need for muscular hypertrophy. Just incorporate both, your results will thank you for it.

i wont because all the people in my gym are DYELs that do "bodybuilding" style high rep routines and have made zero gains. Regardless of diet, its guilty by association.

[GravityLee]

This leads me to my next point. Regardless of what your goals are, you should always include a bit of everything into your programming. Low rep work for strength and power is an extremely useful tool even for someone who strictly wants to maximize hypertrophy. But please, stop trying to convince yourself that low rep strength work is all you need for muscular hypertrophy. Just incorporate both, your results will thank you for it.

I am going to agree people should include both. I watched some of the video I didn't really hear him touch on the fact that 90% of people are going to lift a 4 rep set completely different from an 8-12 rep set. Its going to have a lot more momentum and jerking, fast negative and there may even a reduction in the range of motion. I don't have a masters in physics or biology but it would seem these are factors to consider. I was disappointed he didn't touch on this but at the end of the day I am going to agree with you. Low rep work mixed in seems like a great idea as a way to break through plateaus.

[BioSmith91]

I am going to agree people should include both. I watched some of the video I didn't really hear him touch on the fact that 90% of people are going to lift a 4 rep set completely different from an 8-12 rep set. Its going to have a lot more momentum and jerking, fast negative and there may even a reduction in the range of motion. I don't have a masters in physics or biology but it would seem these are factors to consider. I was disappointed he didn't touch on this but at the end of the day I am going to agree with you. Low rep work mixed in seems like a great idea as a way to break through plateaus.

Its a dumb consideration. He even admits that the "hypertrophy range" is more time efficient for doing the same amount of work. Just based on that fact alone, I'd say that higher rep ranges are superior for bodybuilding purposes.

[BioSmith91]

i wont because all the people in my gym are DYELs that do "bodybuilding" style high rep routines and have made zero gains. Regardless of diet, its guilty by association.

Weird. At my gym, the only "DYEL's" are lazy rookies and guys who focus too much on strength only training.

[UglyNerd]

I assumed that people were referring to the bench machine as the "pec deck" lol, I am noob.

I do 2 sets free for stabilizer muscles and then 2-4 (depending on how quickly and at what weight/reps I am failing) on the machine because I don't have a spotter and I lift to failure and don't want to die. (so basically 6 bench and 6 fly) I am still planning on changing this up due to the feedback received here. I am also going to be focusing on more calories.

I am adding weight about every other week so I guess I don't quite understand where the "lack of progressive overload" comments are coming from. Also, everything I read indicates that the reps for body building are ideally 8-12 and strength training are 5-8. So forgive me if I am not just taking some random guy on the internet's word that their program accomplishes what I want to accomplish, any actual scientific sources explaining why I should go back to heavier weight and lower reps would be appreciated.

My approach is clearly not "right" or I would be bigger, I don't want to give the impression that I am stubbornly clinging to what I have been doing, but I also have seen enough contradictory opinion and bro-science to know that I need to verify before acting.

Does anyone have thoughts about the guy I mentioned in the OP? Is he doing something wrong or does he just have bad genes?

[UglyNerd]

There is just no real overload doing it the way you are doing, you will need to keep adding weight to the lift if you do the same reps and sets. Dont worry about the science behind it, you need a bigger and bigger stimulus, however....google on your own if you want to learn, the information is out there.
1g protein per lb of lbm is enough

Why do you assume that I'm not adding weight? When I say that I regularly lift to failure, how would it be possible that I don't get any stronger?

[TJP33]

My approach is clearly not "right" or I would be bigger, I don't want to give the impression that I am stubbornly clinging to what I have been doing, but I also have seen enough contradictory opinion and bro-science to know that I need to verify before acting.

Quoted the above cause I wish more pple would THINK like this.

If you are making progress (in terms of increase numbers)- chances are your problem is nutrition..

Keep in mind where you are right now, your still in the process of building your base; so despite your long term goals being more in the lines of bodybuilding- it would actually favor you to start off more along the lines of power lifting and strength- with right nutrition youll get your size, many competitive BB cycle in PL training programs. Free weights- Squats- deadlifts - bench - OHP, this should be your foundation you build around.. As time goes on and volume increases, isolated movements, cables, machine work all can be added in and this is where you can look at things more detailed like a bb, and experiment with reps/MM/TUT - all that stuff that serp says is bro... im not exactly certain I know what he's talking about (not specific and no source) but at this point it really shouldn't effect you.

I would drop what your doing, find a plan that is built around the previously mentioned lifts and go from there..

[Ortiz7983]

I appreciate the advice, everyone. I'm really confused by a lot of it, however.

I spent a year doing 5-8 reps to failure on EVERY SINGLE SET, 2 days a week for chest and arms. I was getting way stronger, but not growing at all, which is the opposite of what I wanted. After reading some threads on this site, I learned that I should be doing less weight more reps to cause hypertrophy. It definitely worked for my arms over the second year of lifting, (I know, but you should have seen them before.) My chest thickened out at the top, but not at all on the bottom.

Why do people keep suggesting 5x5 when my goal is not strength? From what I read and have experienced, low reps is a less efficient way to my goal, so I don't understand... what am I missing here? Also, everyone says do more incline, which also doesn't seem to address my concern of lower pecs. My upper pecs have grown a lot, it's the lateral and lower portions are not... Are people not reading the question when responding or is there some component of this that I need to understand better?

What specifically is the purpose of dropping the circuit? My thinking here was that, in addition to being considerate to other users, doing a set of curls in between chest exercises maximized my rest and allows me to increase the weight for the appropriate time under tension for each set. Help me understand what is wrong with this style. If doing them together is better, I definitely will, I just want to understand why

Also, I think I downplayed how hard I have worked my chest - Recently it has been once a week because I have had a lot going on, but it was twice a week and ultra sore every time, I was eating at least 120g protein and 5g creatine every day. I plan to up my clean calories a lot now that I'm back from vacation, any other suggestions?

Do the same sets. Just pick up enough weight where you only can do 8. Do incline bench press, regular bench press, dumbbell flys, decline press bench, and dips. Dips to failure on each set. And try to eat the same number of protein as your weight.

[Jasonk282]

Quoted the above cause I wish more pple would THINK like this.

If you are making progress (in terms of increase numbers)- chances are your problem is nutrition..

Keep in mind where you are right now, your still in the process of building your base; so despite your long term goals being more in the lines of bodybuilding- it would actually favor you to start off more along the lines of power lifting and strength- with right nutrition youll get your size, many competitive BB cycle in PL training programs. Free weights- Squats- deadlifts - bench - OHP, this should be your foundation you build around.. As time goes on and volume increases, isolated movements, cables, machine work all can be added in and this is where you can look at things more detailed like a bb, and experiment with reps/MM/TUT - all that stuff that serp says is bro... im not exactly certain I know what he's talking about (not specific and no source) but at this point it really shouldn't effect you.

I would drop what your doing, find a plan that is built around the previously mentioned lifts and go from there..

It's this^

it's not that you're 'wrong' in how you're going about it. It's just that there are more effective ways to get there A LOT faster. Spending 3-6 months bulking up on a strength program like 5x5 would do wonders for your lifts and your body in general. If the stats are correct you are only 157 lbs...you're not going to have a big chest at that weight, no matter how strong you are.

I'm 200 lbs with a 43'' chest cold and 44.5 flexed and I still consider it pretty fuking small, but considering that I don;t train for size or to 'look good' I'm OK with that.

After your strength program you can add more 'bodybuilder' stuff. But keep the basic strength component.

If you're making progress on your lifts by adding weight to the bar but you're not getting any bigger...then you have a food issue.

[GravityLee]

If you're making progress on your lifts by adding weight to the bar but you're not getting any bigger...then you have a food issue.

This

Also OP you asked if the guy in your post has bad genetics. Bad genetics is a cop out. There was a pro mma fighter missing a pectoral muscle due to childhood accident. People with no limbs that body build, etc etc. I have scoliosis. My spine twists and my rib cage rotates. I still find ways to work back, and ways to work my shoulders mostly individually since they don't line up well enough to barbell exercise. It starts with the desire, then you get the knowledge, the two come together and you find a way to make it work. It really takes both because if you only have the drive you'll end up spinning your wheels or hurting yourself.

[Tommy W.]

This

Also OP you asked if the guy in your post has bad genetics. Bad genetics is a cop out. .

While genetics aren't a cop out they are a factor always. Everyone has muscles that grow well and muscles that don't. You just have to train the bad ones harder and more efficiently.

[UglyNerd]

It's this^

If you're making progress on your lifts by adding weight to the bar but you're not getting any bigger...then you have a food issue.

I more than doubled my starting 1 rep max before I switched to more reps.

Another question, I can eat two pizzas a day easily, but sometimes I look at a bowl of brown rice, a protein shake, or slice of turkey and want to throw up. Any tips on forcing down "clean" calories?

[JamesW129]

So, I have been lifting for most of the last 2 years now somewhat casually, now 31 years old, kids limit my gym time, but frankly I am embarrassed by my chest.

What results do you expect to get??

I took some pics tonight, but my post count is below 50 so I can't include images or hyperlinks, type this in, apparently case sensitive:



imgur dot com/a/E9Pim



My arms are getting there, my abs will be there when I stop eating a whole pizza and drinking a liter of Mountain Dew every time I stay late at the office, but my pecs.... You can see in the last picture that I have some roundness through the middle, but from the front, they are non-existent. What I have wanted more than anything since I started lifting is a "boob shelf." I want that prominent shadow at the bottom. I don't care if I can't do a push up, I just want that size/ shape.

This evening, after a day with my kids at the water park mirin' guys who clearly don't lift but have bigger pecs than me, I Google Image Searched "lagging lower pecs" and clicked on "Visit Page" on the very first result, some guy, gertlouw, saying how he got a larger chest.

I almost cried. He clearly works way harder than I ever have. His arms, abs, obliques, and quads are amazing, but his chest, even in the "after" photos, looks like an 11 year old boy.

Am I doomed by genetics? What do I do?

Negged. I wish I could neg you a few more times. Grow the phuck up

[servonlewis]

I more than doubled my starting 1 rep max before I switched to more reps.

Another question, I can eat two pizzas a day easily, but sometimes I look at a bowl of brown rice, a protein shake, or slice of turkey and want to throw up. Any tips on forcing down "clean" calories?

Put the clean food back in the produce section, and eat that pizza! You dont need "clean" food...as long as we're not talking about how it is washed.

[Jasonk282]

I more than doubled my starting 1 rep max before I switched to more reps.

Another question, I can eat two pizzas a day easily, but sometimes I look at a bowl of brown rice, a protein shake, or slice of turkey and want to throw up. Any tips on forcing down "clean" calories?

I can eat 2 pizzas a day easily as well. Now eating them in one sitting is different. I can eat at least 1 large one in one sitting. Seems like you have an eating problem. Meaning you eat sporadically instead of meals.

[EuEra]

Personally i would just switch to a beginners program like starting strength and build up to some impressive weights. If you want to carry on doing routines like you are now i would do flat bb bench followed by incline db bench and then chest dips all for 4x8 with 45 seconds rest in between sets. Really your routine is very bad i don't know whats worse the circuit thing or the exercise selection.

[mr.average]

Its the same exact thing....how much it grows (ONLY UNDER INCREASED TONNAGE) is determined by genes. Rep range has nothing to do with it. In fact, moving the weight as fast as possible under both concentric and eccentric loading produces more hypertrophy than the bro "slow rep contraction" BS. Under a heavier load, contractile forces increase, which completely eliminates the artificial need to "squeeze" a muscle with a light weight as you can get rid of that entirely by just moving a heavier weight.
keep adding weight and you will get bigger (as you are programmed to), if someone never increases the weight (increasing reps is a bad idea, and sets as well as you are not going to be in the gym for hours and hours).
Furthermore, no exercise is superior and develops it in a different way, if you put a heavier load on it, with enough response (rest and nutrients in a caloric surplus), it will grow.

Not saying to you but there is so much broscience its ridiculous "this exercise for thickness, this exercise for width". El oh El.

Its true that higher reps induce more hypertrophy, but thats given per given sets in a specific training session and can be made up with more sets, not over time.

So increase the tonnage you lift within the same amount of time?
Lets say you bench/squat whatever 5x5 @ 150kg, so 3,750kg total, as long as you increase that total tonnage very workout(same time taken), what is the best percentage of 1 rep max for this? Is 5x5 best or 5x10? Because I could lift more in 5x10 in the same time.
Also how many exercises per body part if you're hitting it once or twice a week?
I understand the progress part of lifting but it's finding the OPTIMAL way of achieving it, I've like many tried so many things & they all work if you put your all into them.

[Serpentarius]

Why do you assume that I'm not adding weight? When I say that I regularly lift to failure, how would it be possible that I don't get any stronger?

What are your lifting stats for flat bench, overhead press, weighted pull ups, squat, and deadlift?
lifting to failure has nothing to do with anything, its just a way of lifting, doesnt mean that you make more progress.
Lagging parts dont exist really as it implies a person isnt working it out (assuming a person isnt a curl bro and then wondering why he has "lagging" legs), if you are lifting and adding weight, things wont grow to how you want them to, genetics determine how much something grows (in a surplus). Everything is lagging as you lack lbm, you need to drop about 15 lbs which puts you at close to 140, so with that in mind just lift and it will get bigger (in a surplus), eventually.

[UglyNerd]

Personally i would just switch to a beginners program like starting strength and build up to some impressive weights. If you want to carry on doing routines like you are now i would do flat bb bench followed by incline db bench and then chest dips all for 4x8 with 45 seconds rest in between sets. Really your routine is very bad i don't know whats worse the circuit thing or the exercise selection.

Why is circuit training bad? That's what they do in P90X; Do a rotation of 4 or 5 different lifts and then repeat. What is the source of this knowledge that everyone keeps dropping?

When I say I had been doing a circuit, this is what I mean:
1 set 30-35 pullups
1 set flat bench, 12 reps
1 set tricep pulldowns, 12 reps
1 set cable flies, 12 reps
1 set dumbbell curls 12 reps

Repeat 5-6 times, but adjusting reps down to 10 or 8 and dropping weight as capacity diminishes, quitting when my weight has to be reduced by 50-60%

[Mrpb]

Why is circuit training bad? That's what they do in P90X; Do a rotation of 4 or 5 different lifts and then repeat. What is the source of this knowledge that everyone keeps dropping?

A circuit is good for getting your heart rate up. Not for increasing your chest size. To increase your chest size you will need to get stronger on the bench press (for starters), eat a surplus and use good form.

Recommended reading: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...g-secrets.html