Androgen Receptor Cleaner?

[krogtaar]

Stop With The Idiotic Analogies That Have Nothing To Do With Steroids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bydded_Gryf]

^ yes, they do...
Thank god for real scientists on this board

[krogtaar]

^ yes, they do...
Thank god for real scientists on this board

working on my PhD in chemical engineering. analogies suck!

[Patrick Arnold]

working on my PhD in chemical engineering. analogies suck!

analogies are an excellent tool for learning things. what the hell you talkin about

[krogtaar]

analogies are an excellent tool for learning things. what the hell you talkin about

these analogies specifically. we are talking about a set of simple exponential rate law controlled reactions. its obvious that with multiple intermediate steps and reactants, the overall reaction product -hypertrophy muscle mass - has an accumulation rate dependent on many reactant concentrations. increasing the concentration of one reactant, the steroid, or going one step further, the targeted nuclear receptor bonded to a steroid, will increase the overall reaction rate. if this, however, ceases to become the major rate limiting step, the increase in hypertrophy will be exponentially smaller

edit: meant to say you don't need analogies to special relativity or sheep, just high school chemistry. what you said in post 24 about covers it, "shuts down" is a reasonable simplification of what i said.

[Patrick Arnold]

these analogies specifically. we are talking about a set of simple exponential rate law controlled reactions. its obvious that with multiple intermediate steps and reactants, the overall reaction product -hypertrophy muscle mass - has an accumulation rate dependent on many reactant concentrations. increasing the concentration of one reactant, the steroid, or going one step further, the targeted nuclear receptor bonded to a steroid, will increase the overall reaction rate. if this, however, ceases to become the major rate limiting step, the increase in hypertrophy will be exponentially smaller
.

Steroid users eventually reach a point where there is a rate limiting step for muscle growth which is not related to the amount of steroid and/or the amount of receptors or even the overall androgen gene expression itself. Perhaps this step can be addressed by the use of other pharmaceutical agents, or maybe through dietary interventions. Perhaps different training protocols can help. Or maybe yer just fukked

[krogtaar]

Steroid users eventually reach a point where there is a rate limiting step for muscle growth which is not related to the amount of steroid and/or the amount of receptors or even the overall androgen gene expression itself. Perhaps this step can be addressed by the use of other pharmaceutical agents, or maybe through dietary interventions. Perhaps different training protocols can help. Or maybe yer just fukked

indeed. that's when you bust out...







































dat der cell tech

[Phosphate bond]

Steroid users eventually reach a point where there is a rate limiting step for muscle growth which is not related to the amount of steroid and/or the amount of receptors or even the overall androgen gene expression itself. Perhaps this step can be addressed by the use of other pharmaceutical agents, or maybe through dietary interventions. Perhaps different training protocols can help. Or maybe yer just fukked

The part where you are mentioning bottlenecks here really makes sense.

In fact, I even think these bottlenecks can apply to natural people also. (Especially addressing deficiencies in diet)

[stealth_maven]

[Zachattack43]

Analogies are used to help people understand a subject/topic that is beyond and compare it to something they know or would easily understand, even if it very generalized.

[G.W. Hayduke]

them some sexy sheep

I'll take the three little ones up front.

[YoungGunner24s]

Steroid users eventually reach a point where there is a rate limiting step for muscle growth which is not related to the amount of steroid and/or the amount of receptors or even the overall androgen gene expression itself. Perhaps this step can be addressed by the use of other pharmaceutical agents, or maybe through dietary interventions. Perhaps different training protocols can help. Or maybe yer just fukked

Correct of course. Androgen receptors actually increase in density when steroids are presented. There is no such thing as "cleaning androgen receptors". Thats brotelligence that has proven false.

It will be a MAJOR breakthrough in bodybuilding when these limiting factors can be identified.

I have a feeling these same factors are factors the pros are unaffected by.

Either way, it is apparent that there are genetic limits on hypertrophy. Ive juiced to the gills and back and know first hand that training + eat more are not the only factors involved. Far from it.

I have heard from some pros mouths directly that site injecting IGF allowed them to reach new levels of muscle density and break plateaus they never could before.

[inhuman warrior]

Interesting information in this thread. I always thought they did down regulate.

[Cable Curling CincoUno]

He really knew his ****...well I'm sure he's off in other forums.

I've seen him on the monkeyisland forums. I'm sure he could come back here if he wanted to but he was probably banned for a bull**** reason which was enough to keep him away. No site is as good as bb.com at chasing away intelligent people.

[Bane]

No site is as good as bb.com at chasing away intelligent people.

Werd

[Cable Curling CincoUno]

Werd

thus why you're still here
sorry, had to.

[Patrick Arnold]

Correct of course. Androgen receptors actually increase in density when steroids are presented. There is no such thing as "cleaning androgen receptors". Thats brotelligence that has proven false.

It will be a MAJOR breakthrough in bodybuilding when these limiting factors can be identified.

.

Only if drugs, supps, or methods can be devloped that address them. Otherwise its just more complicated science

I have a feeling these same factors are factors the pros are unaffected by.

Either way, it is apparent that there are genetic limits on hypertrophy. Ive juiced to the gills and back and know first hand that training + eat more are not the only factors involved. Far from it.

I have heard from some pros mouths directly that site injecting IGF allowed them to reach new levels of muscle density and break plateaus they never could before.

IGF-1 site injected has not turned out to be very effective. And it would not be expected to do much - unless it can somehow be constantly infused into the muscle along its entire surface area. And the doses necessary would likely result in hypoglycemic reaction

[Patrick Arnold]

I've seen him on the monkeyisland forums. I'm sure he could come back here if he wanted to but he was probably banned for a bull**** reason which was enough to keep him away. No site is as good as bb.com at chasing away intelligent people.

anabolicminds is better

[Bane]

anabolicminds is better

When they don't ban you for talking negative for any of the sponsors

[Patrick Arnold]

When they don't ban you for talking negative for any of the sponsors

i was being sarcastic

anabolic_closed_minds

anabolic_mind_control

anabolic_minding_their_financial_interests

[YoungGunner24s]

i was being sarcastic

anabolic_closed_minds

anabolic_mind_control

anabolic_minding_their_financial_interests

anabolic_ad_council

[Patrick Arnold]

Correct of course. Androgen receptors actually increase in density when steroids are presented. There is no such thing as "cleaning androgen receptors". Thats brotelligence that has proven false.

It will be a MAJOR breakthrough in bodybuilding when these limiting factors can be identified.
.

well androgen receptors have, in addition to the site where the steroid binds, a site where the activated receptor binds to the steroid response element of the dna and also sites where "co-modulators" can bind

comodulators can be either positive (co-activators) or negative (co-repressors) regulatory compounds. in other words they can either amplify or suppress the transcriptional activity that is switched on by the AR complex

it is possible that extended usage of androgens creates an imbalance in the comodulators which results in a dampening of the transcriptional signals.

[NO HYPE]

your muscle building machinery likely shuts down when you reach a certain predetermined limit, and your muscles will become refractory to anabolic stimuli such as androgens and growth factors.

Steroid users eventually reach a point where there is a rate limiting step for muscle growth which is not related to the amount of steroid and/or the amount of receptors or even the overall androgen gene expression itself. Perhaps this step can be addressed by the use of other pharmaceutical agents, or maybe through dietary interventions. Perhaps different training protocols can help. Or maybe yer just fukked

It will be a MAJOR breakthrough in bodybuilding when these limiting factors can be identified. I have a feeling these same factors are factors the pros are unaffected by. Either way, it is apparent that there are genetic limits on hypertrophy.

it is possible that extended usage of androgens creates an imbalance in the comodulators which results in a dampening of the transcriptional signals.

I am thinking myostatin might be [a] determining factor.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=391

I just think it's another endogenous mechanism of homeostasis. It strikes me as a way for the body to regulate our pre-determined musclar phenotypes, but maybe I'm just off on this one.

[Patrick Arnold]

I am thinking myostatin might be [a] determining factor.

myostatin is always a factor - with or without steroids


remove myostatin and you will grow more with or without steroids. but even more with steroids, because you have that much more of an anabolic impetus

GH and steroids work quite well together. Does myostatin have something to do with it? check this out




Myostatin Is a Skeletal Muscle Target of Growth Hormone Anabolic Action
Wei Liu, Scott G. Thomas, Sylvia L. Asa, Nestor Gonzalez-Cadavid, Shalendar Bhasin and Shereen Ezzat
Department of Medicine (W.L., S.E.), Mount Sinai Hospital and University of Toronto; Faculty of Physical Education and Health (S.G.T.), University of Toronto; Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, University Health Network and University of Toronto, Freeman Centre for Endocrine Oncology, and Ontario Cancer Institute (S.L.A.), Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 2M9; and Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism and Molecular Medicine (N.G.-C., S.B.), Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. S. Ezzat, University of Toronto–Mt. Sinai Hospital, 600 University Avenue, #437, Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G-1X5. E-mail: sezzat@mtsinai.on.ca.


Abstract
Top
Abstract
Introduction
Patients and Methods
Results
Discussion
References


Myostatin is a cytokine that has recently been shown to selectively and potently inhibit myogenesis. To investigate the mechanisms of anabolic actions of GH on skeletal muscle growth, we examined the in vitro and in vivo effects of GH on myostatin regulation. Twelve GH-deficient hypopituitary adult subjects were treated with recombinant GH (5 ?g/kg?d) in a double-blind, placebo-controlled fashion. Body composition and physical function were assessed and skeletal muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis performed at 6-monthly intervals during 18 months of treatment. Myostatin mRNA expression was significantly inhibited to 31 ? 9% (P < 0.001) of control by GH but not by placebo administration (79 ? 11%) as determined by quantitative real-time PCR normalized for the housekeeping glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate dehydrogenase gene. The inhibitory effect of GH on myostatin was sustained after 12 and 18 months of GH treatment. These effects were associated with increases in lean body mass and translated into enhanced aerobic performance as determined by maximal oxygen uptake and ventilation threshold. Parallel in vitro studies of skeletal muscle cells demonstrated significant reduction of myostatin expression by myotubes in response to GH, compared with vehicle treatment. Conversely, GH receptor antagonism resulted in up-regulation of myostatin in myoblasts. Given the potent catabolic actions of myostatin, our data suggest that myostatin represents a potential key target for GH-induced anabolism.

[NO HYPE]

The inhibitory effect of GH on myostatin was sustained after 12 and 18 months of GH treatment. These effects were associated with increases in lean body mass and translated into enhanced aerobic performance as determined by maximal oxygen uptake and ventilation threshold.

That's impressive.

[YoungGunner24s]

That's impressive.

Definitely.

[Patrick Arnold]

That's impressive.

yeah but don't forget that these were gh deficient adults. might not see nearly the same effect on normal pituitary adults

[An Inconvenient Bro]

Stop With The Idiotic Analogies That Have Nothing To Do With Steroids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

actually analogies can be quite helpful.

Think of it like this, take your average field mouse and imagine it's intelligence to be measured as the amount of electricity to illuminate up a light bulb. Let's say for sake of analogy the average field mouse's intellect can illuminate a 100 watt bulb to a normal brightness.

Next take the expected average supplement consumer's intelligence level most companies dictate to when they write their ads and put it in the same terms. You will find that the expectation only allows for a miniature night light bulb to be illuminated to 23% of maximum brightness.

[Patrick Arnold]

actually analogies can be quite helpful.

Think of it like this, take your average field mouse and imagine it's intelligence to be measured as the amount of electricity to illuminate up a light bulb. Let's say for sake of analogy the average field mouse's intellect can illuminate a 100 watt bulb to a normal brightness.

Next take the expected average supplement consumer's intelligence level most companies dictate to when they write their ads and put it in the same terms. You will find that the expectation only allows for a miniature night light bulb to be illuminated to 23% of maximum brightness.

[Patrick Arnold]

PA based on this, what AAS scheme do you think would provide the most results in theory? 1 year of 1 gram of test EW, or blasting and cruising with test prop?

Im assuming its better to keep your body guessing rather than allow it to reach homeostasis.

This raises questions of how the body responds to massive doses of androgens in a short period of time. I know there are several mechanisms for dealing with excess androgens, but how fast can they respond? Do you think there are benefits to massive frontloading, or is that going to trigger co-repressors faster than a normal cycle?

Seems there are more unknowns than people take in to account.

really