Is it just maths????

[KLMARB]

Are you a published researcher or just repeating stuff you've read through the years? And what is this archives that you mention here?

My book is in the works. What I've done, or at least am attempting to do, is integrate established science into a conceptual form for people to understand and apply to themselves. Everything I've said has been researched, but the conceptual framework, as well as some of the terms are my own.

The archives are here on this website.

I'm a guy that became obese, was able to alleviate it, and decided to understand the biochemistry that would enable me to explain it to others..

[wrhalljr]

This thread is filled with guys who want to argue rather then apply 'real world' knowledge.

Sure, there are all kinds of small differences....but in practice, for the most part and most people....a calorie is a calorie.

So both are right.... but arguing a calorie is not a calorie to me, is just being argumentative to show how smart you are rather then trying to help people with real world advice.

I must disagree and not to be just "argumentative" ...I really feel that the one's on here stating that "a calorie is just a calorie" are playing to the crowd on here that stays in shape and has some knowledge of nutrition and macros...when that is taken into the real world and you start oversimplifying it like that to someone who is new to fitness or struggles with weight loss or is obese you are doing them such a complete disservice that it is actually extremely harmful...whether we like it or not there are people who take things to the extreme and many of them!! So when you get posts on here about only eating "ice cream" or junk food because a calorie is a calorie it may be fun to talk about and to me quite laughable sometimes but it is not practical in real life situations that people deal with on a daily basis to preach such nonsense...

[acrawlingchaos]

What measuring system would you suggest in the place of the calorie? Assuming an athlete has a goal to track nutrition, and wanted to manage a positive energy balance for weight gain?

[acrawlingchaos]

I must disagree and not to be just "argumentative" ...I really feel that the one's on here stating that "a calorie is just a calorie" are playing to the crowd on here that stays in shape and has some knowledge of nutrition and macros...when that is taken into the real world and you start oversimplifying it like that to someone who is new to fitness or struggles with weight loss or is obese you are doing them such a complete disservice that it is actually extremely harmful...whether we like it or not there are people who take things to the extreme and many of them!! So when you get posts on here about only eating "ice cream" or junk food because a calorie is a calorie it may be fun to talk about and to me quite laughable sometimes but it is not practical in real life situations that people deal with on a daily basis to preach such nonsense...

Most people do not purposely set out to that sort of extreme. Those types of questions are usually hypothetical and used to spark a discussion.

How is it a disservice to not teach people about energy balance? I think it a disservice not to. Regardless of all the little things that make a difference in weight loss, a calorie deficit is at the top of the chain. Without a deficit, nothing else really matters.

Why would you not teach people about this very crucial factor in weight loss?

[ironwill2008]

So when you get posts on here about only eating "ice cream" or junk food ..

Exactly who is it that posts advice to "only eat(ing) "ice cream" or junk food?" I've never seen that advised by any regular poster on this site.

[KLMARB]

Both letpin and insulin are good. It is when we have chronically high levels that it becomes a problem.

As far as it's relationship to IF.... IF is just an eating pattern, nothing more, and will not positively or negatively effect leptin levels.

Understanding the etiology of leptin (an anorexigenic hormone) resistance is what is important. Specifically, for people with the specific genetic trait of rapidly rising leptin resistance when following a carb-based nutritional pattern is what is relevant.

[induced_drag]

I must disagree and not to be just "argumentative" ...I really feel that the one's on here stating that "a calorie is just a calorie" are playing to the crowd on here that stays in shape and has some knowledge of nutrition and macros...when that is taken into the real world and you start oversimplifying it like that to someone who is new to fitness or struggles with weight loss or is obese you are doing them such a complete disservice that it is actually extremely harmful...whether we like it or not there are people who take things to the extreme and many of them!! So when you get posts on here about only eating "ice cream" or junk food because a calorie is a calorie it may be fun to talk about and to me quite laughable sometimes but it is not practical in real life situations that people deal with on a daily basis to preach such nonsense...

Very true. I should have prefaced my statements, but that is also more from a nutritional and overall health standpoint. I think from weight loss, it probably is still valid. (referencing the studies where they fed people 100% of their carbs from sucrose and other group got complex carbs, weight loss was the same as well as composition of weight loss).

[KLMARB]

Fascinating, and fairly typical. Notice that both those meals are essentially lipogenic. Typical application of oversimplified thermodynamics, if advocated for the lipogenically adapted....It certainly supports an effective business model, if your goal is keeping people overweight so they continue to buy your services..

[wrhalljr]

Exactly who is it that posts advice to "only eat(ing) "ice cream" or junk food?" I've never seen that advised by any regular poster on this site.

Just search and there are many...now I know that many are 30 day video skits and done just to prove a point, but as I said before I think oversimplifying it and stating without clarification that "a calorie is just a calorie" is actually more dangerous to the general public long term because many of them were raised eating primarily "junk food"...

[ironwill2008]

Just search and there are many...

You expect me to do a 'search' to prove your point?

You made the statement; the burden of proof is on you.

[bustasinclair]

Exactly who is it that posts advice to "only eat(ing) "ice cream" or junk food?" I've never seen that advised by any regular poster on this site.

While I agree it's ridiculous, my contention is the same. Here's a quick example:

Subject is an athlete. 6' 210# who resistance trains 3 days per week with daily calorie maintenance of 2,800 k/cals

Meal plan: 1/2 gallon Blue Bell Vanilla Ice cream

2,815 k/cals
80g protein
336g carbohydrates
128g fats

Meal 1: 1/8 gallon
Meal 2: 1/8 gallon
Meal 3: 1/8 gallon
Meal 4: 1/8 gallon

My contention is that over a period of, say, 6 weeks of this diet, the athlete will weigh exactly the same within a small margin of error. The only difference would be body composition; meaning that subject would lose muscle and gain fat.

Anyone disagree?

[acrawlingchaos]

Maybe maybe not.... busta, but..


Everyone in the strength/performance training understands the importance of protein to spare muscle. I would also say there may not be a difference in composition over time. Carbs are VERY protein sparing.

If they are maintaining strength and not in a deficit, there shouldn't be any loss of muscle.

[wrhalljr]

You expect me to do a 'search' to prove your point?

You made the statement; the burden of proof is on you.

Honestly? I'm on my phone or I would and wasn't asking you to do a search but come on I see them daily as I'm sure you do...I will link some just by searching "ice cream" when I get to my computer later...

[HoustonTXMuscle]

This thread gets more entertaining daily. Scratchhead.jpg. Altogether, have gather about as much useful information as I've forgotten from my first year of biochemistry in med school, 50 years ago. Outta here...back to PubMed and my journals.

[ironwill2008]

Honestly? I'm on my phone or I would and wasn't asking you to do a search but come on I see them daily as I'm sure you do...I will link some just by searching "ice cream" when I get to my computer later...

Don't bother; I already know what you'll find. No regular/long term poster here ever recommends to someone to "only eat ice cream or junk food." How do I know this? From interacting with most of them on a daily basis both in the open forums and in the journals for several years.



But since you seem to like to use extremes as examples, here's one for you:

I think it's equally "dangerous" to advise noobs that they must eat only boiled chicken, broccoli, and brown rice 12 times a day in order to build a good physique.






That level of nutritional dysfunction would make most of them forget they ever wanted to train in the first place.









This thread goes further off the deep end by the hour.

[Lvisaa2]

Just search and there are many...now I know that many are 30 day video skits and done just to prove a point, but as I said before I think oversimplifying it and stating without clarification that "a calorie is just a calorie" is actually more dangerous to the general public long term because many of them were raised eating primarily "junk food"...

I disagree. A person at a healthier weight and doing so eating "junk food" is better than someone at an unhealthy weight. I fully subscribe to IIFYM, but my diet is probably just as 'clean' if not cleaner than most bros out there who have an all out cheat every week. I think most who believe in IIFYM are similar.

Anyone disagree?

Yes. I do. I think you highly discount the effects of lifting and overestimate protein requirements. But that situation is neither rational or realistic. Plus, it wouldn't be following the IIFYM protocol if he didn't actually reach his macros(which 80g of protein wouldn't satisfy his macros minimum)

[Jedwab]

I cant believe this thread is still going....wtf have i started with a simple innocent question

[frozensparky]

I cant believe this thread is still going....wtf have i started with a simple innocent question

Repped for thinking the exact same thing. You would think this was a gun control thread.

[ironwill2008]

I cant believe this thread is still going....wtf have i started with a simple innocent question

This is nothing new.

In fact, compared to some of the threads in the 'nutrition' forum, this one is downright brief.

[Lvisaa2]

The human body isn't a closed system. If you increase calories it increases metabolism, if you decrease metabolism is decreases metabolism. But metabolic processes can also be manipulated by macronutrient content plus genetics.

As ACC said, I'm not sure anyone with basic nutritional knowledge would argue this. If someone doesn't realize that things like TEF for macronutrients vary then they need to get back to the basics. I don't even consider myself well-versed in nutrition.

I'm certainly NOT discounting thermodynamics. Appetite stimulation is subjective. There is the difference between what is considered as stimulation, but is really a withdrawal reaction triggered by hypoglycemia (due to the lipogenic adaptation of anorexigenic hormonal resistance) vs. a true orexigenic (starved state, ghrelin, causing hunger) hormonal secretion, due to caloric restriction (thermodynamics). That's why the establishment of balance is key, so people cutting fat only have to deal with hunger, (due to thermodynamics) rather than both at the same time. It's the combination of the two, especially the severity of the withdrawal reaction found in the obese (high resistance issues) that prevent the long term alleviation of obesity. In fact, advocating lipogenic caloric restriction often demonizes hypoglycemia, thereby preventing an adaptation out of chronic lipogenesis, actually preventing obesity alleviation in any real sense..

So then you are agreeing with me? I am in full agreement that people need to tailor their diet towards their particular situation, whether that be physiological situation or simple things like personal preference. That being said, if you try to take away my carbs then you and I will have problems!

This is nothing new.

In fact, compared to some of the threads in the 'nutrition' forum, this one is downright brief.

Brief and civil . I don't mind discussion if it is civil and I think there is some productive cause that can come of it. A lot of this thread was filled with banter and bs, but there is some good stuff going on as well.

[KLMARB]

This thread gets more entertaining daily. Scratchhead.jpg. Altogether, have gather about as much useful information as I've forgotten from my first year of biochemistry in med school, 50 years ago. Outta here...back to PubMed and my journals.

Have you ever seen this? Do you have an opinion on it?
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/2/1/19

[Old-Time-Lifter]

I must disagree and not to be just "argumentative" ...I really feel that the one's on here stating that "a calorie is just a calorie" are playing to the crowd on here that stays in shape and has some knowledge of nutrition and macros...when that is taken into the real world and you start oversimplifying it like that to someone who is new to fitness or struggles with weight loss or is obese you are doing them such a complete disservice that it is actually extremely harmful...whether we like it or not there are people who take things to the extreme and many of them!! So when you get posts on here about only eating "ice cream" or junk food because a calorie is a calorie it may be fun to talk about and to me quite laughable sometimes but it is not practical in real life situations that people deal with on a daily basis to preach such nonsense...

Exactly who is it that posts advice to "only eat(ing) "ice cream" or junk food?" I've never seen that advised by any regular poster on this site.

Just search and there are many...now I know that many are 30 day video skits and done just to prove a point, but as I said before I think oversimplifying it and stating without clarification that "a calorie is just a calorie" is actually more dangerous to the general public long term because many of them were raised eating primarily "junk food"...

Honestly? I'm on my phone or I would and wasn't asking you to do a search but come on I see them daily as I'm sure you do...I will link some just by searching "ice cream" when I get to my computer later...

In his defense IW, there was a guy way back when I first joined that claimed he got ripped on fast food. I forget his handle but it is important to know that whereas he was pretty ripped he was not big in anyway shape or form.

I cant believe this thread is still going....wtf have i started with a simple innocent question

You are new aren't you......... LOL These dogs will chew any bone to bits. LOL

[bodyhard]

I cant believe this thread is still going....wtf have i started with a simple innocent question

You see what you started? More people arguing about calories and less people posting up progress pics or videos

[ironwill2008]

If someone doesn't realize that things like TEF for macronutrients vary then they need to get back to the basics.

^^^^ This.




Of course TEF is a consideration, within context. For a bodybuilder fighting to drop that last quarter of a percentage point of body fat to get him from 6.25 down to 6%, it could mean the difference between winning a contest or being an also-ran.

For the average trainee/poster in this forum, much less some civilian arguing with his wife, it's essentially meaningless.














ETA:

... there was a guy way back when I first joined that claimed he got ripped on fast food.

Not speaking about random guys, OTL, but rather, regular, long-time posters who routinely offer advice both here and in other forums, more specifically, the 'nutrition' forum.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

While I agree it's ridiculous, my contention is the same. Here's a quick example:

Subject is an athlete. 6' 210# who resistance trains 3 days per week with daily calorie maintenance of 2,800 k/cals

Meal plan: 1/2 gallon Blue Bell Vanilla Ice cream

2,815 k/cals
80g protein
336g carbohydrates
128g fats

Meal 1: 1/8 gallon
Meal 2: 1/8 gallon
Meal 3: 1/8 gallon
Meal 4: 1/8 gallon

My contention is that over a period of, say, 6 weeks of this diet, the athlete will weigh exactly the same within a small margin of error. The only difference would be body composition; meaning that subject would lose muscle and gain fat.

Anyone disagree?

Maybe maybe not.... busta, but..


Everyone in the strength/performance training understands the importance of protein to spare muscle. I would also say there may not be a difference in composition over time. Carbs are VERY protein sparing.

If they are maintaining strength and not in a deficit, there shouldn't be any loss of muscle.

I'm going to agree, everything else being equal I don't think his body comp would improve or deteriorate. 80 grams of protein should be plenty for maintenance. But if he wants to re-comp he needs to change his macros.

[induced_drag]

In his defense IW, there was a guy way back when I first joined that claimed he got ripped on fast food. I forget his handle but it is important to know that whereas he was pretty ripped he was not big in anyway shape or form.

Timberwolf talked many times about cutting eating BK whoppers.

Cmoore will tell you about his prescription to IIFYM.


That said, both those guys with elite physiques by any measure understand that for general health, you should seek out nutritionally dense foods as a whole....but sprinkling here and there with 'junk' food wont really make a difference.

Love Alan Aragon's 80/20 article.

I credit him (an Ironwill for pushing me in the right direction) for allowing me to 'have a life' from an eating perspective and still pursue my bodybuilding goals. I 'cut' and eat pizza and icecream....yes I do...but I also understand that I should seek out a nutritionally balanced diet...and I try to eat a good balance of whole unprocessed foods. Icecream dosent hurt though....and neither do refined flour ...etc. Just moderation in everything.

[Jedwab]

You see what you started? More people arguing about calories and less people posting up progress pics or videos

I know it seems I'm a troublemaker. Who's wrong. or right. I no longer care!

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Timberwolf talked many times about cutting eating BK whoppers.

Cmoore will tell you about his prescription to IIFYM.


That said, both those guys with elite physiques by any measure understand that for general health, you should seek out nutritionally dense foods as a whole....but sprinkling here and there with 'junk' food wont really make a difference.

Love Alan Aragon's 80/20 article.

I credit him (an Ironwill for pushing me in the right direction) for allowing me to 'have a life' from an eating perspective and still pursue my bodybuilding goals. I 'cut' and eat pizza and icecream....yes I do...but I also understand that I should seek out a nutritionally balanced diet...and I try to eat a good balance of whole unprocessed foods. Icecream dosent hurt though....and neither do refined flour ...etc. Just moderation in everything.

Kane (Timberwolf) is a genetic freak, not fair comparing him to a us mere mortals. LOL

He will also buy a dozen KK doughnuts and eat the whole box. Not to mention poptarts.

[induced_drag]

Just felt like I need to change my AVI to participate in this discussion


Hope AZcoach approves...


Crap...didnt update for some reason....this is what I meant to post. (at least I know what level to wear my shorts at )

[Lvisaa2]

I credit him (an Ironwill for pushing me in the right direction) for allowing me to 'have a life' from an eating perspective and still pursue my bodybuilding goals. I 'cut' and eat pizza and icecream....yes I do...but I also understand that I should seek out a nutritionally balanced diet...and I try to eat a good balance of whole unprocessed foods. Icecream dosent hurt though....and neither do refined flour ...etc. Just moderation in everything.

Just gonna quote this, because I think this is the whole point of IIFYM in a nutshell.