2017 Orders Part 2: Robs taste buds still broken and DMAAs future in question.

[shoefanatic23]

Good post OT, will be reading it's entirety at some point today.

With relation to weight loss/gain. I think the most important conclusions still reveal what anyone paying attention already knows: you want to gain LM? Eat in a surplus. Lost FM? Eat in a deficit. Keto may be another discussion all together, but all these diet fads are nothing more than tweaked ways of accomplishing just that. So people can and should attack their nutrition any way that works for them, but all these bogus claims about one diet being "superior" to another need to end *cough* IF *cough*. Each diet has it's positives and negatives, and people should do what works for them based on their goals, but it boils down to the same principles of deficit or surplus:

You are right about these "fad" diets and how they are just a different ways to lower one's calories/macros. I know a guy who recently told me he was doing keto in order to lose weight. He said it is the best way for him to lose weight, since he can't lose weight when lowers his calorie intake. I didn't even bother to respond lol.

[BenBlue]

You are right about these "fad" diets and how they are just a different ways to lower one's calories/macros. I know a guy who recently told me he was doing keto in order to lose weight. He said it is the best way for him to lose weight, since he can't lose weight when lowers his calorie intake. I didn't even bother to respond lol.

Oh man, been there brother. With some people, it's just a waste of energy trying to explain these things.

[kissdadookie]

AA just posted this in the Nut section if you want to read

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-017-0174-y

Very good read. I also like the acknowledgement that in the well trained RT population may benefit from very high protein intake (≥3 g/kg). It's a good update and hopefully that changes the bro recommendations on boards such as this one that 1 gram/lb for protein is more than sufficient for our purposes.

[BenBlue]

Very good read. I also like the acknowledgement that in the well trained RT population may benefit from very high protein intake (≥3 g/kg). It's a good update and hopefully that changes the bro recommendations on boards such as this one that 1 gram/lb for protein is more than sufficient for our purposes.

Yep, that part opened my eyes, not gonna lie. I def subscribed to the .8-1lb club.

[kissdadookie]

Yep, that part opened my eyes, not gonna lie. I def subscribed to the .8-1lb club.

Also, not all calories are equal so the oversimplified concept of calories in and calories out isn't as useful as one may think. For example, when caloric-ally matched and protein intake being unchanged, if I get the calories in from fats > carbs, I actually lose weight.

[OT2000]

Something I always thought about with protein intake was the coorelation between maximizing MPS and state of current health/body fat. For example, the study I posted earlier showed men that were aging need more protein to not lose muscle mass. Well that's in part to a higher leucine threshold so even adding leucine (not bcaas which would be a waste) would help hit that optimal level.

MPS is also inhibited by level of current health and even amount of fat mass or rather too much. In theory, the same would apply until optimal fat mass is achieved and body fat lowered. With MPS providing a greater response, the protein needs would actually lower unless you are achieving high levels of muscle mass i.e. gain fat free weight

[kissdadookie]

Something I always thought about with protein intake was the coorelation between maximizing MPS and state of current health/body fat. For example, the study I posted earlier showed men that were aging need more protein to not lose muscle mass. Well that's in part to a higher leucine threshold so even adding leucine (not bcaas which would be a waste) would help hit that optimal level.

MPS is also inhibited by level of current health and even amount of fat mass or rather too much. In theory, the same would apply until optimal fat mass is achieved and body fat lowered. With MPS providing a greater response, the protein needs would actually lower unless you are achieving high levels of muscle mass i.e. gain fat free weight

Something else which doesn't get enough focus is the impact of all body protein synthesis/utilization on markers for athleticism. There's been this overemphasis on MPS and only MPS.

[BenBlue]

Also, not all calories are equal so the oversimplified concept of calories in and calories out isn't as useful as one may think. For example, when caloric-ally matched and protein intake being unchanged, if I get the calories in from fats > carbs, I actually lose weight.

Yes, so do I. My issue with that is performance. In my experience, fat just can't match the performance of carbs. At least when we're talking about high intensity PL training. But I think a lot of guys overdo the carbs and would likely have better composition without sacrificing performance by replacing some of the carbs with fat, or simply removing some of the carbs. I'm prob in that boat right now, just not super concerned with composition so I haven't put in the effort. Pretty comfortable with a little extra fat given that my performance is increasing.

[Misctake7]

Yes, so do I. My issue with that is performance. In my experience, fat just can't match the performance of carbs. At least when we're talking about high intensity PL training. But I think a lot of guys overdo the carbs and would likely have better composition without sacrificing performance by replacing some of the carbs with fat, or simply removing some of the carbs. I'm prob in that boat right now, just not super concerned with composition so I haven't put in the effort. Pretty comfortable with a little extra fat given that my performance is increasing.

This is very true but completely depends upon a persons body and level of training history and current training. You cannot be a underweight beginner and just jump on a 3,500 calorie and 500g+ carb intake unless you have a crazy metabolism. You will likely get fat and sloppy pretty quick. I know my body would.

In the past, I've often opted for higher fats because my body was always carb sensitive. After years, my body has changed and thrives more on carbs. While calories in vs calories out will always be the overall main focal point, I feel getting everything else in order like nutrient timing, macro cycling/calorie cycling, food choices, etc can all make a big difference and alter calories in vs calories out a bit in advanced trained individuals. Keeping calories the same but throwing fat into my post workout meal, I can get sloppy pretty fast. Keeping it carbs and protein and my body shines on that. That's one small difference between this bulk and my last bulk.

I was eating the exact same as I'm eating now on my last bulk. Last bulk I was at 260lbs. This bulk, I'm 240lbs on the same amount of food with more macros being dedicated to carbs.

[OT2000]

Something else which doesn't get enough focus is the impact of all body protein synthesis/utilization on markers for athleticism. There's been this overemphasis on MPS and only MPS.

I agree on some overemphasis especially on how the supplement industry keeps using MPS to drive useless products.

Many would have you believe you need whey over steak because it initiates a higher MPS response not taking into account the length in which steak is superior. So for long term muscle growth I would choose steak over whey any day of the week.

[BenBlue]

This is very true but completely depends upon a persons body and level of training history and current training. You cannot be a underweight beginner and just jump on a 3,500 calorie and 500g+ carb intake unless you have a crazy metabolism. You will likely get fat and sloppy pretty quick. I know my body would.

In the past, I've often opted for higher fats because my body was always carb sensitive. After years, my body has changed and thrives more on carbs. While calories in vs calories out will always be the overall main focal point, I feel getting everything else in order like nutrient timing, macro cycling/calorie cycling, food choices, etc can all make a big difference and alter calories in vs calories out a bit in advanced trained individuals. Keeping calories the same but throwing fat into my post workout meal, I can get sloppy pretty fast. Keeping it carbs and protein and my body shines on that. That's one small difference between this bulk and my last bulk.

I was eating the exact same as I'm eating now on my last bulk. Last bulk I was at 260lbs. This bulk, I'm 240lbs on the same amount of food with more macros being dedicated to carbs.

Some good points for sure. The dumbed down idea of calories in vs calories out is the baseline knowledge that people need to understand, but manipulating macros within your calorie intake and focusing on timing can have a significant impact on both body composition as well as performance, especially for more advanced lifters. I honestly need to give that more thought myself, but i'll save it for when I'm ready to drop some fat without losing strength/performance.

[Misctake7]

Some good points for sure. The dumbed down idea of calories in vs calories out is the baseline knowledge that people need to understand, but manipulating macros within your calorie intake and focusing on timing can have a significant impact on both body composition as well as performance, especially for more advanced lifters. I honestly need to give that more thought myself, but i'll save it for when I'm ready to drop some fat without losing strength/performance.

That's why I keep telling you about intra workout protein and carbs

[OT2000]

That's why I keep telling you about intra workout protein and carbs

I thought you only sip Bcaas intra


Trololol

[BenBlue]

That's why I keep telling you about intra workout protein and carbs

hahaha I know man I know. I really need to give it some thought. Was chatting with KDD about that too in another thread. I honestly feel great training in the AM fasted after eating a lot night before, but I'm def willing to try some intra workout feeding. My issue is my appetite sparks at night...I can see myself adding in some intra carbs/protein and failing to adjust my night time habits resulting in whale Ben :/

[HeavenBeyond]

Well said, OT -- I completely agree.

However, I am sick of the "keto" diet fad. My biggest issue with it is that the people who adopt it don't understand proper energy balance -- in other words, they demonize carbohydrates and they don't understand that carbohydrates can play a critical roll in exercise performance. Not only that, but once their diet is done they have NO idea how to eat carbohydrates, so...

[kissdadookie]

hahaha I know man I know. I really need to give it some thought. Was chatting with KDD about that too in another thread. I honestly feel great training in the AM fasted after eating a lot night before, but I'm def willing to try some intra workout feeding. My issue is my appetite sparks at night...I can see myself adding in some intra carbs/protein and failing to adjust my night time habits resulting in whale Ben :/

Keep in mind that it's likely more beneficial regardless of your training program to have proper periworkout nutrition when you're on a deficit (in other words, it makes more sense to get the nutrients in around the period where they will most likely be needed more) vs when you're on a surplus. It is useful when on maintenance or surplus but typically I would say it's dependent on the type of training program you are using in those scenarios.

[BenBlue]

Well said, OT -- I completely agree.

However, I am sick of the "keto" diet fad. My biggest issue with it is that the people who adopt it don't understand proper energy balance -- in other words, they demonize carbohydrates and they don't understand that carbohydrates can play a critical roll in exercise performance. Not only that, but once their diet is done they have NO idea how to eat carbohydrates, so...

I would even go so far as to say that carbs not only can, but absolutely DO play a critical roll in exercise performance, at least in my experience. Of course this depends on level of performance and I know bodybuilders, for example, can still make a lot of progress with fat as the main fuel source, but I have never felt that fat gives me the same burst of energy or even sustained energy that I get form carbs, and i've been on both high carb and high fat diets.

[BenBlue]

Keep in mind that it's likely more beneficial regardless of your training program to have proper periworkout nutrition when you're on a deficit (in other words, it makes more sense to get the nutrients in around the period where they will most likely be needed more) vs when you're on a surplus. It is useful when on maintenance or surplus but typically I would say it's dependent on the type of training program you are using in those scenarios.

Oh for sure, but i'm at a point where any edge is worth exploring however small it may be. So i'm glad you brought it up to me the other day. I know i'm getting enough calories to perform, but if timing them more efficiently helps me even put even an extra 5lbs on any of my lifts, that's worth it.

[HeavenBeyond]

I would even go so far as to say that carbs not only can, but absolutely DO play a critical roll in exercise performance, at least in my experience. Of course this depends on level of performance and I know bodybuilders, for example, can still make a lot of progress with fat as the main fuel source, but I have never felt that fat gives me the same burst of energy or even sustained energy that I get form carbs, and i've been on both high carb and high fat diets.

I would agree... 100%. I was being cautious case anybody in here was on a KETO diet, didn't want to hurt feelings... but they argue that they have so much energy, blah blah blah...

[brooks1865]

I've done keto before and lost some weight quick but felt like **** for the most part until I was "adapted" and even then my workouts weren't as good as they could be. I put most of the weight back on after because I just couldn't sustain the diet.

[BenBlue]

I've done keto before and lost some weight quick but felt like **** for the most part until I was "adapted" and even then my workouts weren't as good as they could be. I put most of the weight back on after because I just couldn't sustain the diet.

Bounce back effect is def another point to consider. Keto is a drastic change for 99% of the people adopting it.

[Misctake7]

I thought you only sip Bcaas intra


Trololol

Well, BCAA's are in my intra as well
Fugi hasn't tried my approach of complete proteins intra work with his BCAA's. Poor guy

[VO2Maxima]

>3g/kg still falls in the 1-1.5g/lb recommendation you sometimes see (obviously not the 0.8-1g/lb one that seems to be more common). And the recommendations you see for enhanced athletes tends to be even higher than that (with the almost sole exception of a Layne Norton video that's more of a math problem).

I would even go so far as to say that carbs not only can, but absolutely DO play a critical roll in exercise performance, at least in my experience. Of course this depends on level of performance and I know bodybuilders, for example, can still make a lot of progress with fat as the main fuel source, but I have never felt that fat gives me the same burst of energy or even sustained energy that I get form carbs, and i've been on both high carb and high fat diets.

Anecdotally, I don't perform as well off lower carbs. I should add intra-workout carbs back in...I used to use them and fell off the bandwagon.

[mccyjcb]

Might try upping my protein a bit though as Farley pointed out. I'm currently around .8-1g per lb:

"Increasing dietary protein to levels significantly beyond current recommendations for athletic populations may improve body composition. "

This is the theory I subscribe to as well. I typically eat ~1.1g/lb of body-weight, or 2.4g/kg. If that were in FFM numbers, as the study from OT posted, it'd be more like 2.78g/kg FFM. To me, this seems like enough.

For anyone always calculating protein based on total body weight, multiply that number by (2.2 + (1 + bf %)).

Example for me: body weight = 184lb, ~13% bf, currently at ~1.1g/lb

g/kg FFM = 1.1g/lb * 2.2g/kg * (1+.13) = 2.78g/kg FFM

Maybe this will help some, maybe it won't. Just bored at work and I like numbers haha. finance major here

[Rob1882]

Some Neogenix Love from TMD

<3



Calbee is the same company makes those Snap Pea and Black Bean crisps I love so much. I seen this yesterday ( Whole Cuts ) o lawd so epic like wendy's fries turned into a chip; skin and all on those and full size.



Rockstar Ultra Zero Lemonade




Quake 10.0 ( 26g ) Lemon Drop and Lemonade ( 9g ) Bodyforge




I kind of love lemonade/lemons and lemon drop :P now if I can just get that BANG Guava in my hands..

[brooks1865]

I started using the step counter on my iPhone and realized just how little I move in the day. I have an office job where I'm pretty much at my desk all day. I still train pretty hard but that's only like an hour and a half tops. I've started doing 15-20 squats at the top of every hour to get a little work in without breaking out into a sweat and being all gross when a customer comes in. Any ideas on something I can do to get a little more movement in my day? I generally have to be in or around my office and I don't have a lunch break where I leave work I work through lunch. I do meal prep and bring my food here with me.

[Misctake7]

I started using the step counter on my iPhone and realized just how little I move in the day. I have an office job where I'm pretty much at my desk all day. I still train pretty hard but that's only like an hour and a half tops. I've started doing 15-20 squats at the top of every hour to get a little work in without breaking out into a sweat and being all gross when a customer comes in. Any ideas on something I can do to get a little more movement in my day? I generally have to be in or around my office and I don't have a lunch break where I leave work I work through lunch. I do meal prep and bring my food here with me.

I get up and walk every hour usually. Then workouts, cleaning, cooking, going for walks, cutting the lawn. Basically am on my feet most of the time.

[mccyjcb]

I started using the step counter on my iPhone and realized just how little I move in the day. I have an office job where I'm pretty much at my desk all day. I still train pretty hard but that's only like an hour and a half tops. I've started doing 15-20 squats at the top of every hour to get a little work in without breaking out into a sweat and being all gross when a customer comes in. Any ideas on something I can do to get a little more movement in my day? I generally have to be in or around my office and I don't have a lunch break where I leave work I work through lunch. I do meal prep and bring my food here with me.

I'd recommend getting a stand-up desk. I'm in the same situation as you, except I take lunches and such. But I'm in the midst of trying to convince my boss to get a couple stand up desks for us. Look into a Varidesk or Flexispot, which are adjustable so you don't have to stand ALL the time.

[HeavenBeyond]

I'd recommend getting a stand-up desk. I'm in the same situation as you, except I take lunches and such. But I'm in the midst of trying to convince my boss to get a couple stand up desks for us. Look into a Varidesk or Flexispot, which are adjustable so you don't have to stand ALL the time.

Well worth the investment IMO -- I am in the same situation. Banking 9-5. FML. Using an Ergotron stand at the moment.

[Motion23]

I'd recommend getting a stand-up desk. I'm in the same situation as you, except I take lunches and such. But I'm in the midst of trying to convince my boss to get a couple stand up desks for us. Look into a Varidesk or Flexispot, which are adjustable so you don't have to stand ALL the time.

100% agree, I did the same at my office. Recommended VariDesks and eveyone in the office got one but I am the only one that uses mine 100% of the time. Been using it for over a year now and love it.