"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[BLicK1252]

I miss bulking on this program so much. I switched to the intermediate program and it is so hard for me to have the energy to squat twice a week while cutting and even my upper body days are a struggle by the end.

With that said somehow this morning I hit a PR on bench 3 @ 205 x 6. My incline afterwards was very poor however (only 4-6 reps).

But I can't tell you guys how many compliments I've gotten from people for dedicating myself to this program. I'd still like to lose a good 20 pounds but whenever I see people for the first time in a while everyone mentions how big my shoulders are. #feelsgoodman

Stick to the program and you'll get great results!

[davisj3537]

thanks, i will do the routine as it is, but i've seen that my tricep has develop very well doing skullcrusher. i was wondering where can i manage to put them here?

You don't add them; you sub them in place of the tricep exercise already in the program.

Is Bulgarian Split Squat an okay sub for front squat?

Sure

I miss bulking on this program so much. I switched to the intermediate program and it is so hard for me to have the energy to squat twice a week while cutting and even my upper body days are a struggle by the end.

With that said somehow this morning I hit a PR on bench 3 @ 205 x 6. My incline afterwards was very poor however (only 4-6 reps).

But I can't tell you guys how many compliments I've gotten from people for dedicating myself to this program. I'd still like to lose a good 20 pounds but whenever I see people for the first time in a while everyone mentions how big my shoulders are. #feelsgoodman

Stick to the program and you'll get great results!

Glad to hear it man. You've put in the work and it's paying off. Cutting sucks something awful:/

[Farley1324]

I encountered a question...I've never done face-pulls or run a routine that specifically called for them so I drew a blank...what would a person with a basic home gym and no machines do for the face-pull?

[davisj3537]

I encountered a question...I've never done face-pulls or run a routine that specifically called for them so I drew a blank...what would a person with a basic home gym and no machines do for the face-pull?

Bands are great for this and a ton of other exercises. IMO a must have for a home gym. Something as simple as a 40 dollar set is adequate. I added 4 30lb bands to a set similar to this so I can replicate all kinds of stuff, but it really isn't needed. Helps you do pulldowns and tons of other exercises.

https://www.amazon.com/Bodylastics-B...ics&th=1&psc=1

In terms of how to replicate face pulls it's tough without bands or a pulley. High DB rows, inverted close grip rows or the more popular reverse flies. Gotta work with what you got.

[MyEgoProblem]

Ill go one further and say that band facepulls while harder to progressively overload accurately without measuring your band tensions/distance to anchor points or swapping out to heavier bands (its just way easier to move a pin down a stack) are superior to the rope version due to the strength curve of the accommodating resistance and Especially if pulled apart at the peak contraction.

Ive found nothing better than bands to light my rear delts and upper back up!

Not just an alternative for a home gym Without a cable stack. I take my bands to the gym with me.

Sorry for that derail :-D

Can't agree more tho with them being borderline essential for a home setup.

[davisj3537]

Ill go one further and say that band facepulls while harder to progressively overload accurately without measuring your band tensions/distance to anchor points or swapping out to heavier bands (its just way easier to move a pin down a stack) are superior to the rope version due to the strength curve of the accommodating resistance and Especially if pulled apart at the peak contraction.

Ive found nothing better than bands to light my rear delts and upper back up!

Not just an alternative for a home gym Without a cable stack. I take my bands to the gym with me.

Sorry for that derail :-D

Can't agree more tho with them being borderline essential for a home setup.

Agreed. They just allow you to replicate so many exercises that would be impossible without the dedicated machine. I do just as many exercises with bands as I use free weights.

[dgoyena216]

Agreed. They just allow you to replicate so many exercises that would be impossible without the dedicated machine. I do just as many exercises with bands as I use free weights.

So are you able to lift 100% now? I remember you having shoulder surgery or something and was thinking you might not be able to bench again.

[davisj3537]

So are you able to lift 100% now? I remember you having shoulder surgery or something and was thinking you might not be able to bench again.

I can get by I guess. I got up to decline benching 245 for sets of 15 a few months ago, but have since decided that it's not good for my shoulder. I only bench with bands now for super high reps and light weight. 3 sets of 30 with 60lbs for instance.

All my upper body lifts are light weight high reps actually. Too scared of reinjury.

[QuickReflection]

Davis, you're not going to believe this, but thought you should know. My legs still never feel fresh. But tbh, I think it has to do with the fact of how many steps I walk up everyday. I feel like it might be impeding in my recovery process honestly. I tried counting how many times I walked up the steps.. Lasted for about and hour and a half and I walked up the steps 8 times (and some times that weren't counted because I hadn't started counting yet) and there are 12 steps every time I walk up them. so take 6 X 12 X 12 and that is roughly how many steps I walk up every day (which is 864 steps).

[davisj3537]

Davis, you're not going to believe this, but thought you should know. My legs still never feel fresh. But tbh, I think it has to do with the fact of how many steps I walk up everyday. I feel like it might be impeding in my recovery process honestly. I tried counting how many times I walked up the steps.. Lasted for about and hour and a half and I walked up the steps 8 times (and some times that weren't counted because I hadn't started counting yet) and there are 12 steps every time I walk up them. so take 6 X 12 X 12 and that is roughly how many steps I walk up every day (which is 864 steps).

Something else may be wrong man. You walk roughly the same daily...your body acclimates to that. Something else is wrong most likely.

[QuickReflection]

Something else may be wrong man. You walk roughly the same daily...your body acclimates to that. Something else is wrong most likely.

Another thing that is weird. When I wake up in the morning, I can't help but extend my legs and flex my quads really strongly for like 3 seconds. This happens every time I wake up and it usually feels like I just got done squatting when I relax my quads. And I don't think I have like super weak legs either; I am 5'4" and my legs are 22". To put this in perspective, When I was in HS and pretty much full grown, my waist line was 28", some of it is fat, but still.

I'll ask the doctor about this when I go see him on Thursday.

[davisj3537]

Another thing that is weird. When I wake up in the morning, I can't help but extend my legs and flex my quads really strongly for like 3 seconds. This happens every time I wake up and it usually feels like I just got done squatting when I relax my quads. And I don't think I have like super weak legs either; I am 5'4" and my legs are 22". To put this in perspective, When I was in HS and pretty much full grown, my waist line was 28", some of it is fat, but still.

I'll ask the doctor about this when I go see him on Thursday.

You're pulling the standard "quickreflection" and overanalyzing unimportant stuff.

Food and sleep can affect your recovery ability. Look into those two factors for major issues...not trivial details.

[QuickReflection]

You're pulling the standard "quickreflection" and overanalyzing unimportant stuff.

Food and sleep can affect your recovery ability. Look into those two factors for major issues...not trivial details.

Well, I know for a fact I get enough sleep.. That leaves nutrition... I feel like my nutrition isn't that bad.. I usually get about 3 meals a day with at least 25 g of protein each (I figured out that 25 g is what I need for synthesis for my body weight). That said, I have never really been a big eater. Most of the fat I gained was from empty calories like soda, which I have severely cut back my intake of. I've made a lot of positive changes to my diet.. That said, maybe I am not eating enough overall calories or protein. I just started juicing again - bought some kale, kiwi, plums, apples and carrots for the juicing the last 2 days been putting creatine in it. Been trying to eat high protein low fat yogurt in the morning with nuts. Mid day I usually eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with milk. late at night (for me) I've been trying to eat chicken breast which I cook with coconut oil and eat plain. I've also been weighing myself frequently, like twice a day. I don't seem to be losing a whole lot of weight, but I know I dropped an inch around my waist since like a week and a half to 2 weeks ago. IDk, I am confused what I am doing wrong at this point.

[davisj3537]

Well, I know for a fact I get enough sleep.. That leaves nutrition... I feel like my nutrition isn't that bad.. I usually get about 3 meals a day with at least 25 g of protein each (I figured out that 25 g is what I need for synthesis for my body weight). That said, I have never really been a big eater. Most of the fat I gained was from empty calories like soda, which I have severely cut back my intake of. I've made a lot of positive changes to my diet.. That said, maybe I am not eating enough overall calories or protein. I just started juicing again - bought some kale, kiwi, plums, apples and carrots for the juicing the last 2 days been putting creatine in it. Been trying to eat high protein low fat yogurt in the morning with nuts. Mid day I usually eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with milk. late at night (for me) I've been trying to eat chicken breast which I cook with coconut oil and eat plain. I've also been weighing myself frequently, like twice a day. I don't seem to be losing a whole lot of weight, but I know I dropped an inch around my waist since like a week and a half to 2 weeks ago. IDk, I am confused what I am doing wrong at this point.

75g of protein isn't much. I eat 200-230 a day. You're smaller than I am so take that into account. Your recovery is always going to be worse when cutting vs bulking. Just common sense really.

IF I were in your shoes I'd do something like 50g of fat, 130g of protein and 180 g of carbs. That's 1700 cals man. I wouldn't be going lower.

[QuickReflection]

75g of protein isn't much. I eat 200-230 a day. You're smaller than I am so take that into account. Your recovery is always going to be worse when cutting vs bulking. Just common sense really.

IF I were in your shoes I'd do something like 50g of fat, 130g of protein and 180 g of carbs. That's 1700 cals man. I wouldn't be going lower.

So I should prolly be eating a lot more then.. Like I said, I'm not a big eater as it is, and compound that with the bad habit I learned in wrestling to ignore hunger and it isn't good.

What food should I be adding? I can do eggs I suppose. What else?

[davisj3537]

So I should prolly be eating a lot more then.. Like I said, I'm not a big eater as it is, and compound that with the bad habit I learned in wrestling to ignore hunger and it isn't good.

What food should I be adding? I can do eggs I suppose. What else?

Think macros, not food choices. FWIW, I eat lots of cottage cheese, greek yogurt, beef jerky and meat of basically any kind. High protein foods. Because they hit my macros. I need lots of protein and minimal carbs.

[QuickReflection]

Think macros, not food choices. FWIW, I eat lots of cottage cheese, greek yogurt, beef jerky and meat of basically any kind. High protein foods. Because they hit my macros. I need lots of protein and minimal carbs.

You said to eat 130 g of protein, 180 g of carbs and 50 g of fat. what is that ratio wise? I am using this new (for me) website called cron-o-meter. I want to plug in the right ratio into it.

[davisj3537]

You said to eat 130 g of protein, 180 g of carbs and 50 g of fat. what is that ratio wise? I am using this new (for me) website called cron-o-meter. I want to plug in the right ratio into it.

Well you can use a calculator as well as I can. I don't use ratios because they are sh*t. If you work up a ratio right now it will only work for this bulk/cut...etc. You have minimum protein, fat and calorie goals for each phase of lifting. Where the rest of the calories go besides protein, fats doens't matter.

This is basic stuff covered in the nutrition macro sticky thread linked in the FAQ.

[DamonX]

Well, I know for a fact I get enough sleep.. That leaves nutrition... I feel like my nutrition isn't that bad.. I usually get about 3 meals a day with at least 25 g of protein each (I figured out that 25 g is what I need for synthesis for my body weight). That said, I have never really been a big eater. Most of the fat I gained was from empty calories like soda, which I have severely cut back my intake of. I've made a lot of positive changes to my diet.. That said, maybe I am not eating enough overall calories or protein. I just started juicing again - bought some kale, kiwi, plums, apples and carrots for the juicing the last 2 days been putting creatine in it. Been trying to eat high protein low fat yogurt in the morning with nuts. Mid day I usually eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with milk. late at night (for me) I've been trying to eat chicken breast which I cook with coconut oil and eat plain. I've also been weighing myself frequently, like twice a day. I don't seem to be losing a whole lot of weight, but I know I dropped an inch around my waist since like a week and a half to 2 weeks ago. IDk, I am confused what I am doing wrong at this point.

judging from how you're describing things, you really need to go to the nutrition section, and read the sticky at the top regarding TDEE and macros.

you'll be able to enjoy your diet so much more once you comprehend nutrition. and if you're cutting, your recovery abilities will be hindered, the leaner you get. Lol i remember getting down to contest level leanness this year and feeling like I slept on the freeway every morning.

[DamonX]

Trying to comprehend the way you guys are describing face pulls, but not really understanding.

Also, a few other questions:


Barbell row: i read through some of the thread in the latter pages after the first page, and saw for barbell row not pendlay, to do them at 45 degree? I did them 45 degree today, but when I began I was doing them pretty much exactly in the pendlay form, but not touching the ground. Regardless, rows are the lift I have the most difficulty with, in contracting the muscle.

Pullups: I substituted pull ups to lat pulldown, so both A and B, I'm doing pulldowns. Workout B repeats the same weight for the same reps, basically just doing it again. then the week after week A is increased by 1 rep, until its time to increase weight, and B becomes a copy of the adjustment.

Curls: what should I put, the damn dumbbells are always missing and this takes up the most time in my gym to find em.

Side laterals: is adding 2-3 sets at the end of every upper workout, really gonna throw it off?

Arms: i just really need them to grow man, I always feel they're disproportionate. Definitely small when I hit front double bi.

[WolfRose7]

Trying to comprehend the way you guys are describing face pulls, but not really understanding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSoHeSjvIdY

[davisj3537]

Trying to comprehend the way you guys are describing face pulls, but not really understanding.

Also, a few other questions:


Barbell row: i read through some of the thread in the latter pages after the first page, and saw for barbell row not pendlay, to do them at 45 degree? I did them 45 degree today, but when I began I was doing them pretty much exactly in the pendlay form, but not touching the ground. Regardless, rows are the lift I have the most difficulty with, in contracting the muscle.

Pullups: I substituted pull ups to lat pulldown, so both A and B, I'm doing pulldowns. Workout B repeats the same weight for the same reps, basically just doing it again. then the week after week A is increased by 1 rep, until its time to increase weight, and B becomes a copy of the adjustment.

Curls: what should I put, the damn dumbbells are always missing and this takes up the most time in my gym to find em.

Side laterals: is adding 2-3 sets at the end of every upper workout, really gonna throw it off?

Arms: i just really need them to grow man, I always feel they're disproportionate. Definitely small when I hit front double bi.

1. I don't see the question here. Rephrase please

2. Again I don't see a question about pullups either.

3. Cable curls, barbell curls, preacher curls...etc are all good subs. Any curl you want. Should be able to do them tons of different ways.

4. It won't ruin the workout; it just isn't needed. The below picture is a good example of delts. I'd never done OHP, lat raises, incline or upright rows. This picture is without a pump.

Spoiler!

5. If your rows, pullups, face pulls...etc are increasing then so are they. Having said that you can alter a few exercises to give more bi emphasis. Doing chin ups instead of pullups is a good example. If I'm doing 4 sets of pullups then 2 of them might be chinups and two of them might be pullups. You can add more arm isolations if you want, but it's really just going to detract from the program. Adding lat raises, curls and triceps is too much.

You're chasing weak points when you still have a lot of growing to do. It's a mistake. When you bench 315 and pendlay 275 you're going to have great arms. Mine were either just under 18 or 18.5 (can't remember) when I was 190lbs 5'10. With the exception of a few short stretches I never did curls and I only ever did 1 tricep iso. When your compounds are increasing it simply isn't needed.



Having said all this, I don't lift or diet for aesthetics. If I were diet would change drastically and once reaching advanced status I'd suggest changing programming to include more isolations and less frequency. This WILL decrease overall growth, but allow more specific targeting of weak points. You CANNOT target a bunch of weak areas and still grow as fast as people that aren't chasing weak points. You have to pick one or the other. You're trying to do both and it's going to cost you growth. Once you're advanced then you're not really growing any more anyway so you're not sacrificing much for tiny weak point targeting.

[QuickReflection]

Well you can use a calculator as well as I can. I don't use ratios because they are sh*t. If you work up a ratio right now it will only work for this bulk/cut...etc. You have minimum protein, fat and calorie goals for each phase of lifting. Where the rest of the calories go besides protein, fats doens't matter.

This is basic stuff covered in the nutrition macro sticky thread linked in the FAQ.

judging from how you're describing things, you really need to go to the nutrition section, and read the sticky at the top regarding TDEE and macros.

you'll be able to enjoy your diet so much more once you comprehend nutrition. and if you're cutting, your recovery abilities will be hindered, the leaner you get. Lol i remember getting down to contest level leanness this year and feeling like I slept on the freeway every morning.

I've looked at the sticky several times.. I just can't get my head around it. Understanding how autoregulation works? No problem, but when it comes to nutrition I just can't get my head around it. I STILL don't know what my BMR is and that's what you need to know for all the other stuff. I mean yeah, I can find a site and plug in my weight and age and get a number, but I don't really trust that. I don't know how to figure out my specific numbers and that is what is tripping me up. So I just start eating healthy and looking for foods that are "better" for me to compensate for lack of knowledge.

[wowter]

I've looked at the sticky several times.. I just can't get my head around it. Understanding how autoregulation works? No problem, but when it comes to nutrition I just can't get my head around it. I STILL don't know what my BMR is and that's what you need to know for all the other stuff. I mean yeah, I can find a site and plug in my weight and age and get a number, but I don't really trust that. I don't know how to figure out my specific numbers and that is what is tripping me up. So I just start eating healthy and looking for foods that are "better" for me to compensate for lack of knowledge.

Those calculators are just a general idea. It's a good starting point but from there just keep weighing yourself (not twice daily lol) and keep adjusting. Not losing weight? Lower calories. Losing weight too quickly? Up calories. Etc. Your intake and expenditure are always going to be guesses man, no matter how well you weigh your food, so just don't take it so black and white.

[DamonX]

1. I don't see the question here. Rephrase please

2. Again I don't see a question about pullups either.

3. Cable curls, barbell curls, preacher curls...etc are all good subs. Any curl you want. Should be able to do them tons of different ways.

4. It won't ruin the workout; it just isn't needed. The below picture is a good example of delts. I'd never done OHP, lat raises, incline or upright rows. This picture is without a pump.

Spoiler!

5. If your rows, pullups, face pulls...etc are increasing then so are they. Having said that you can alter a few exercises to give more bi emphasis. Doing chin ups instead of pullups is a good example. If I'm doing 4 sets of pullups then 2 of them might be chinups and two of them might be pullups. You can add more arm isolations if you want, but it's really just going to detract from the program. Adding lat raises, curls and triceps is too much.

You're chasing weak points when you still have a lot of growing to do. It's a mistake. When you bench 315 and pendlay 275 you're going to have great arms. Mine were either just under 18 or 18.5 (can't remember) when I was 190lbs 5'10. With the exception of a few short stretches I never did curls and I only ever did 1 tricep iso. When your compounds are increasing it simply isn't needed.



Having said all this, I don't lift or diet for aesthetics. If I were diet would change drastically and once reaching advanced status I'd suggest changing programming to include more isolations and less frequency. This WILL decrease overall growth, but allow more specific targeting of weak points. You CANNOT target a bunch of weak areas and still grow as fast as people that aren't chasing weak points. You have to pick one or the other. You're trying to do both and it's going to cost you growth. Once you're advanced then you're not really growing any more anyway so you're not sacrificing much for tiny weak point targeting.

1: so for barbell row, 45 degrees is what you recommend? Also, any tips for always feeling contractions during rows? (i have trouble sometimes, where some workouts I don't feel the back contract at all.

2: Is it okay for me to do lat pulldowns on both days? With the progression scheme I mentioned? workout B for lat pulldowns is just repeating workout A's weights and reps. So when workout A's reps go up, so do workout B's, and the same applies for weight increases.

3: okay, i may do cable curls then. I was just wondering if I was losing out on any arm gains by not doing something like barbell or dumbbell curls. Cable is better for convenience when the weights are scattered across the gym.

4: alright, i'll skip on doing the lateral raises and see how it goes in the following months.

5: all of that makes complete sense. You're absolutely right, I'm in no position to be going after weak points. Compound progression is what I'll keep the focus on.
thank you

[bob2589]

My understanding was that if you subbed Pendlay for BOR you should be bent over with arms perpendicular to floor, wide grip and flaring the elbows out.

Same back angle as the pendlay but the weight doesnt touch the floor.

The reason I thought BOR wasnt a sub is that people tend to decrease the back angle and row into the lower chest/upper adominal and recruit too much of the Lats, not focusing on squeezing the mid back.

I could be totally wrong though. It happens alot...

[DamonX]

My understanding was that if you subbed Pendlay for BOR you should be bent over with arms perpendicular to floor, wide grip and flaring the elbows out.

Same back angle as the pendlay but the weight doesnt touch the floor.

The reason I thought BOR wasnt a sub is that people tend to decrease the back angle and row into the lower chest/upper adominal and recruit too much of the Lats, not focusing on squeezing the mid back.

I could be totally wrong though. It happens alot...

workout A for me is barbell row, workout B is pendlay.
I was doing barbell rows in the pendlay form, without touching the floor, but then read that it should be done at 45 degrees and brought to navel area? While pendlay is brought to lower chest? and wide grip is supposed to be used for pendlay?

man im so confused now lol

[bob2589]

I remember a conversation over in the novice thread about this before it closed, but that was in relation to a straight swap on workout A, where the row was the pull to balance bench.

I try not to over analyse it, I get the idea of balancing and why BOR isnt ideal, I just lack the flexibility to nail the form on Pendlays so I subbed them. That and the guys at my gym get all pissy about people clanging weights.

[QuickReflection]

Those calculators are just a general idea. It's a good starting point but from there just keep weighing yourself (not twice daily lol) and keep adjusting. Not losing weight? Lower calories. Losing weight too quickly? Up calories. Etc. Your intake and expenditure are always going to be guesses man, no matter how well you weigh your food, so just don't take it so black and white.

K, Thanks.

[QuickReflection]

Well, got back from the Doc.. I have excellent blood pressure, 7?/115. Said he didn't see a problem with my lungs and heart. He checked out my back and said no to lordosis, but that I did have some bad hip tilt and get this, some mild scoliosis. He was cool with my suggestion to get Physical Therapy. Have to get an X-ray for my back. Told him where I wanted to go and he already knew about the place, so I didn't need to give him any info on that.

Overall went well, I'm healthy and that's what matters.