Supplements useless?

[ryanr623]

I would NOT have started this post for l-arginine, BCAA's, and fish oil. This post was about supplements in general and the studies I gave you DID show benefits. Mabe not when already supplementing with a ton of amino acids from whey but under certain conditions they can benefit you.

You are aware of the mounds and mounds of studies proving the inefficiency of L-arginine's ability to increase nitric oxide synthesis, yes? .............. No, i'm not going to go looking for them. You have access to google.

[bartwaldon]

I'm sorry that you have poor reading comprehension.

When someone says "some supplements have benefits" and your first word in response is "Nope", what am I suppose to think???

[bartwaldon]

"Furthermore, BCAA supplementation before and after exercise has beneficial effects for decreasing exercise-induced muscle damage and promoting muscle-protein synthesis; this suggests the possibility that BCAAs are a useful supplement in relation to exercise and sports."

Not saying they are "needed" just not worthless.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15173434

[jdjprimer19]

When someone says "some supplements have benefits" and your first word in response is "Nope", what am I suppose to think???

Maybe you should have glanced at the bolded list.

[bartwaldon]

You are aware of the mounds and mounds of studies proving the inefficiency of L-arginine's ability to increase nitric oxide synthesis, yes? .............. No, i'm not going to go looking for them. You have access to google.

I'm going to see what I can find.

[_Smitty_]

is it just me or is OP slowly/systematically retracting his statements... ?

[bartwaldon]

Maybe you should have glanced at the bolded list.

I did, but still I cant read your mind. In my last debate about supplements the people on the nutrition thread said all supplements are a waist of time and money. A few of them would call you an idiot for taking creatine and whey and ESPECIALLY multi vitamins. I think you were on that thread??

[bartwaldon]

is it just me or is OP slowly/systematically retracting his statements... ?

What are my statements exactly??

[jmuniverse]

Well I only spent about 5 minutes putting the references together... but the studies show benefits do they not??

lol bro waxy maize and arginine have both been proven to be ineffective

i read something similar to this awhile ago
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...ginine_scam_ii

there is also one for waxy maize
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/waxy...tarch_myth.htm

[Nailbomb9]

Then teach me. Which supplements are a joke?? What's the science that proves it?

I'm guessing he thinks there's no need for supps when juicing is better....

[natetrig]

How kind of you that really made my day better!

real friendly... real friendly... hmmm

[jmuniverse]

in b4 nutrient timing is disproven and my mind=blown
I was always under the impression that BCAA's kept someone from going catabolic after a workout (while on a cut)

Currently my workout window is consisted of this
10g BCAA's w/ beta alanine and taurine- pre workout
30g of hydrolyzed protein with 20g of carbs from vitargo-intra
10g of BCAA's with 5g of creatine-post

havent lost much muscle and look leaner
but i have only lost a few lbs lol so take that with a grain of salt

If anyone can have any input on these supps id apprechate and rep for knowledgeable responses

L-caratine (for weight managment purposes)
GPLC- for Nitic oxide purposes
Beta Alanine
HMB
Isolate vs Hydrolyzed proteins
Vitargo vs another carb source
Caffeine ( always makes me feel like i lose size when i take too much caffeine)

I have also heard that the slow vs fast digesting proteins thing is a myth, any truth to that?

[bartwaldon]

I looked up a bunch of articles and studies and it seems as if taking L-arginine alone is potentially useless for NO production. Apparently L-arginine needs an enzyme to convert it into NO?? I found that interesting. I also found this:

Arginine Supplements Cause Gradual Decrease in IGF-1
Arginine is an amino acid that stimulates growth hormone release, and is sometimes used to treat growth deficiencies in children. Growth hormone works largely by increasing the release of IGF-1, a powerful anabolic growth factor. Arginine is also the central ingredient in athletic supplements designed to boost growth hormone. French researchers found that you can't fool Mother Nature! They gave non-athletic subjects arginine aspartate (30 grams daily) for 21 days. IGF-1 increased during the first four days of the experiment, but decreased after that. This study demonstrated an important lesson for bodybuilders: drugs and supplements will not work indefinitely. Feedback systems will eventually limit almost any stress the body encounters.

(Fundamental Clinical Pharmacology, 23: 339-344, 2009)

[lisward]

Wait wait so is L-arginine useless, or AAKG specifically useless. There's a difference.

[lordakhenulv]

Im going to be following since im especially interested in all this amino talk...mainly because i take Xtend as a staple..

[bartwaldon]

Wait wait so is L-arginine useless, or AAKG specifically useless. There's a difference.

No it's not useless, only if you take it for NO production. I havent searched AAKG yet.

[bartwaldon]

No it's not useless, only if you take it for NO production. I havent searched AAKG yet.

Actually it seems useless by itself. It needs to be paired with other supplements that promote NO synthesis.

[shadar]

I looked up a bunch of articles and studies and it seems as if taking L-arginine alone is potentially useless for NO production. Apparently L-arginine needs an enzyme to convert it into NO?? I found that interesting. I also found this:

Arginine Supplements Cause Gradual Decrease in IGF-1
Arginine is an amino acid that stimulates growth hormone release, and is sometimes used to treat growth deficiencies in children. Growth hormone works largely by increasing the release of IGF-1, a powerful anabolic growth factor. Arginine is also the central ingredient in athletic supplements designed to boost growth hormone. French researchers found that you can't fool Mother Nature! They gave non-athletic subjects arginine aspartate (30 grams daily) for 21 days. IGF-1 increased during the first four days of the experiment, but decreased after that. This study demonstrated an important lesson for bodybuilders: drugs and supplements will not work indefinitely. Feedback systems will eventually limit almost any stress the body encounters.

(Fundamental Clinical Pharmacology, 23: 339-344, 2009)

No it's not useless, only if you take it for NO production. I havent searched AAKG yet.

Actually it seems useless by itself. It needs to be paired with other supplements that promote NO synthesis.

So much facepalm in so few posts.

You have no clue what you're talking about. Please stop.

[bartwaldon]

So much facepalm in so few posts.

You have no clue what you're talking about. Please stop.

Again, please explain. I WANT to learn!

[Mr.Cooper69]

Again, please explain. I WANT to learn!

its fine that you want to learn, but all of the info is right in front of you. i just dont get how youre so confused...

[bartwaldon]

its fine that you want to learn, but all of the info is right in front of you. i just dont get how youre so confused...

I come across many recent studies both proving benefits and suggesting otherwise. It is an extremely complex issue we have. It's not basic nutrition, if it were, there would be no debate.

[Mr.Cooper69]

I come across many recent studies both proving benefits and suggesting otherwise. It is an extremely complex issue we have. It's not basic nutrition, if it were, there would be no debate.

well i just read the three posts shadar quoted and if that is seriously the extent of your knowledge than you have no place in the debate

[WillBrink]

lol bro waxy maize and arginine have both been proven to be ineffective

i read something similar to this awhile ago
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...ginine_scam_ii

there is also one for waxy maize
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/waxy...tarch_myth.htm

I cover waxy maize etc in detail here if interested in the actual studies, etc:

"The Facts on Waxy Maize, Vitargo, and other carb sources"

http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/se...y-maize-craze/

[shadar]

I come across many recent studies both proving benefits and suggesting otherwise. It is an extremely complex issue we have. It's not basic nutrition, if it were, there would be no debate.

The point is you don't even understand how to read a study properly. In fact you've probably only ready the abstracts, not even the studies themselves. Yet you act like you know what you're talking about in one post, then admitting you don't know much at all in another.

Stop trying to post studies and quoting abstracts and start learning how to read the studies and what makes one study well designed and another poorly designed.

People don't want to rehash the same debate we've had a hundred times before with someone who hasn't done even basic research on the topic yet. So here, read these threads for now:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=124049701
GH Booster? http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...3&postcount=34

[Roma315]

You are stuck in 1990 pal...

TRUE THAT!! Sups have come a long way from either creatine or protein

[bartwaldon]

well i just read the three posts shadar quoted and if that is seriously the extent of your knowledge than you have no place in the debate

Yet he had nothing to post? So far I've posted more references and studies than everyone combined. I can only post so much and I'm not being bias either. I just found studies that have changed my view on l arginine. It seems as if no matter what references I post I only get the most bitter people who act as if I just shoved a watermelon up their ass! RELAX! Tell me what you want very clearly because it seems like nothing makes you people content.

[jdjprimer19]

Im going to be following since im especially interested in all this amino talk...mainly because i take Xtend as a staple..

All you need is on page two of this discussion. Any questions beyond that, feel free to ask.

[ryanr623]

Yet he had nothing to post? So far I've posted more references and studies than everyone combined. I can only post so much and I'm not being bias either. I just found studies that have changed my view on l arginine. It seems as if no matter what references I post I only get the most bitter people who act as if I just shoved a watermelon up their ass! RELAX! Tell me what you want very clearly because it seems like nothing makes you people content.

There are LOTS of studies on this page
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=124049701

[bartwaldon]

The point is you don't even understand how to read a study properly. In fact you've probably only ready the abstracts, not even the studies themselves. Yet you act like you know what you're talking about in one post, then admitting you don't know much at all in another.

Stop trying to post studies and quoting abstracts and start learning how to read the studies and what makes one study well designed and another poorly designed.

People don't want to rehash the same debate we've had a hundred times before with someone who hasn't done even basic research on the topic yet. So here, read these threads for now:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=124049701
GH Booster? http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...3&postcount=34

I can respect that. But remember I'm not making claims like " arginine boost NO, and without BCAA's you wont build as much muscle". I'm defending the fact that these supplements are not completely worthless and to say that is naive. Again, I'm not defending the supplement companies "claims". I posted studies like he asked and got bashed for it. I referenced my books, written by world reknown experts and not the magazines promoting supplements. Many of you are putting words in my mouth and act as if I'm against whole food consumption and fall for the rediculous hype and scams run by the supplement companies.

[bartwaldon]

There are LOTS of studies on this page
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=124049701

Wow, that was a great thread! Thank you ryan.