Question about squatting heavy

[janzbot71]

Hi.
If I squat a weight that I can manage well I can remain upright and balanced, but when it gets heavy I go into more of that bent over "good morning" pose in which I straighten my legs more before my back comes up. (Not rounded over, just bent over.) I can continue to get the weight up this way but it seems ugly and maybe dangerous. The posts I read when I searched this forum seem to indicate that (provide my form is correct) this is a weakness in my back.

I THINK my form is pretty good. I'm currently doing ATG squats (built up flexibility and I'm really going to the bottom -- well beneath parallel) I vary the width of my stance here and there each workout ensuring that my bare feet are driving with the heels, toes almost off the floor, knees only slightly past the toes, head looking a little down, bar across the shoulder blades, upper body tight, butt tight and behind me as far as I can throw it... When I come up I push hard with my heels and concentrate on pushing my knees out.

FYI, I'm doing the 5 x 5 spilt in which it calls for 15 sets of squats per week vs 2 sets of DL.

Any advice on how to rectify this?

[ironwill2008]

Any advice on how to rectify this?

The lower back weakness? Good Mornings, done with good form, done on your 'back' day.

As far as you Squat form goes, if you're unsure whether or not you're good, post a couple of vids here, one from the side to include your foot, and one from front or back. Can't tell much from a written description.

[rob440]

For bodybuilding if your form goes to hell its too heavy better to add small amounts of weight over time until you can do it properly. For powerlifting I will let someone more qualified answer. Longevity should be a concern if you arent competing in powerlifting events. I guess it should be anyway but competing athletes may take on more risk.

[notch5507]

Here is a link to 21 squat rx videos.

http://www.youtube.com/user/johnnymnemonic2

Watch them.

If you think it "might be dangerous" odds are it is. You are just inviting an injury.
Everyone's form tends to slip when reaching close to max weights. That being said, it could be a weak core. Training the correct stabalizing core muscles will help make you feel more stable.
I agree with above posters. Videos of form would help.

[janzbot71]

"Watch them."

Thanks for the link -- good stuff.

"I agree with above posters. Videos of form would help."

Yes, definitely -- I'll try to record this during the next workout. But it looks like I need more posts in order to link a video..?

[janzbot71]

[QUOTE=ironwill2008;512490863]The lower back weakness? Good Mornings, done with good form, done on your 'back' day.

OK, I'll do them before the DL.

[BrotherWolf]

Any advice on how to rectify this?

Keep squatting until you are strong enough
sounds like you have the basic down, it would really help if you read starting strength

[BrotherWolf]

OK, I'll do them before the DL.

Bad idea.... you will hurt your deadlift, do it on a different day or after DL
a good morning is an accessory to the squat and DL

[Nikonguy]

Here is elite level powerlifter Mike Tuchscherer training. It is also an example of a Starting Strength style low bar squat, although Mike's stance is slightly wider that your average SS trainee.



If you are bending a little farther forward then he is you are ok, if you are having to GM the bar up to keep it moving you need to lower the weight.

[BuckSpin]

IMHO, the Good Morning is probably the best accessory lift to help one's deadlift and squat thru its properly executed form demand on the hams, glutes & lower back. If it helps, envision it as an "upside down" SLDL in that the ROM/bar path for both are the same. Its just that a Good Morning has the load on your upper back instead of on the floor.

As soon as my brain grasped this upside down SLDL concept my Good Mornings got MUCH better. Always make sure you are moving the bar by driving your hips forward and NOT by raising the bar by standing up with at/your lower back.

That said, I would definitely do this as an accessory lift AFTER either squatting or deadlifting. FWIW I do these after deadlifts in that this gives me a lift with a bar off the floor/on my back after a lift that starts from the floor. Likewise, when I squat I will follow those with a SS of BB Hacks & SLDLs for the same reasoning.

[janzbot71]

As suggested I took video of my squat form. After reading the messages in this thread I dropped the weight down to 135 because that is the last weight I felt comfortable with for 5 x 5. There may be other problems with my form, but in my original question I was referring to the 'good morning' that occurs in some of those reps.

**Ok, well I just confirmed that BB.com won't let me link videos in my post yet**

So if anyone wants to check out my 'dashboard' the videos are on there and I would appreciate any advice. Thanks.

[BuckSpin]

I thought your form with 135 looked pretty good to me.

[ironwill2008]

**Ok, well I just confirmed that BB.com won't let me link videos in my post yet**

You need to have 30 posts before you can post links or any other stuff. It's a good rule; it keeps the spammers away.

So if anyone wants to check out my 'dashboard' the videos are on there and I would appreciate any advice. Thanks.

Your form looks fine at that weight, except for the last rep or two in the vid from the back, where it looks like you were simply running out of steam.

Your depth is good, your bar path is good, and your knees aren't caving in.

Your job now is to add 5 pounds a week, as long as you are able to maintain that same good form. When you feel your form begin to break down, end the set.

Overall, good job.

[BrotherWolf]

I thought your form with 135 looked pretty good to me.

I agree .. your stance is a little too wide unless you are purposely squatting like a powerlifter

you should definitely read starting strength and follow the program you are already better than most people who start SS including myself ..
http://startingstrength.com/
In fact I wish I had that form when I started SS.. You will be able to add between 5 and 15lbs per workout for many months if you do it correctly...


PS
remember... the best way to get good at squatting is to squat more

[janzbot71]

"Your job now is to add 5 pounds a week, as long as you are able to maintain that same good form. When you feel your form begin to break down, end the set."

OK -- but now do I still include the 'Good Mornings'? Or just stick to the squat for now and concentrate more on form than on moving up in weight?

"Overall, good job."

Thanks.

"I agree .. your stance is a little too wide unless you are purposely squatting like a powerlifter"

Yeah, I still am experimenting with the stance a lot and what you saw in the video is about as wide as I go -- but I do think I prefer the feel of the wider stance; I seem to feel stronger and I like the deep stretch at the bottom.

"you should definitely read starting strength and follow the program you are already better than most people who start SS including myself .."

Thanks for the link and the suggestion. I have watched a lot of the videos from those guys, especially Wendler and Rippetoe. They obviously know what they are doing. (I kinda like Wendler's attitude too I almost bought SS a while back -- I'll take another look.

"PS remember... the best way to get good at squatting is to squat more"

75 groaning reps per week is enough for now.

[janzbot71]

"you should definitely read starting strength and follow the program..."

I just bought it. 3-5 business days. Thanks again.

[BrotherWolf]

"you should definitely read starting strength and follow the program..."

I just bought it. 3-5 business days. Thanks again.

You won't be sorry it's probably the best single piece of "equipment" you'll ever buy

75 groaning reps per week is enough for now.

LOL... not if you follow the book, that would be done in one day... every other day
but don't worry I am counting the warmup sets as well

[ironwill2008]

OK -- but now do I still include the 'Good Mornings'? Or just stick to the squat for now and concentrate more on form than on moving up in weight?

I'd still suggest you add in 3 sets of 6 reps of GM's at the end of your 'back' day. Can't think of a better lift to help your Squats.

Start GM's with no more than the empty bar, and gradually add weight, week to week, as you can with good form. These are very form-specific; don't stray from good form with these or they'll bite you. Not trying to scare you; rather to make you respect the lift for what it is.


And I'm with BW on Rip's book; it's money in the bank.

[RxJunkie]

For a guy who is following the "SS" program would you think to do these on DL day ( 3X/2weeks) as opposed to every time you Squat 3X/week)?

Or maybe just do them every Fri?

Also, do you have a link to a video tutorial that you like? I am going to add these but, honestly, I am a bit wary of them.

Certainly not 3x/week when you squat. Probably after DL would you do an accessory lift that targets a muscle group already used with heavy weight that day. If you did it on the Power Clean day, you might not have adequate recovery for the lower back on your DL day 48 hours later.

[BrotherWolf]

Certainly not 3x/week when you squat. Probably after DL would you do an accessory lift that targets a muscle group already used with heavy weight that day. If you did it on the Power Clean day, you might not have adequate recovery for the lower back on your DL day 48 hours later.

I think at your level the accessory exercises are not as important as you might think
you get plenty of back work form squats, OH press and DL
if you decide to do GMs go ahead but don't go too heavy and stop if you think it interferes with the main lifts, especially if you are doing SS less is more.
You will start and think "oh this is very easy" .
3 weeks into it if you did it as written
it will feel "challenging" but still manageable, 3 months into it you'd wish you were never born and think you're overtraining
but the progress will be so big that you wont be able to quit
and after a while you'll get used to the volume and intensity and sadistically speaking love the pain and suffering.. and I am not talking about DOMS

Whether you lift a lot of weight or not, SS will make you a stronger person both mentally and physically

[Fifty+]

I think at your level the accessory exercises are not as important as you might think
you get plenty of back work form squats, OH press and DL
if you decide to do GMs go ahead but don't go too heavy and stop if you think it interferes with the main lifts, especially if you are doing SS less is more.
You will start and think "oh this is very easy" .
3 weeks into it if you did it as written
it will feel "challenging" but still manageable, 3 months into it you'd wish you were never born and think you're overtraining
but the progress will be so big that you wont be able to quit
and after a while you'll get used to the volume and intensity and sadistically speaking love the pain and suffering.. and I am not talking about DOMS

Whether you lift a lot of weight or not, SS will make you a stronger person both mentally and physically

IMO, if you do not have the mental ability you are going to have a miserable time achieving your physical goals. The human body does not normally crave physical work. It's a day by day battle.. The cool thing is, that the proof is in the pudding. Whether the goal be gaining strength or reshaping your physique, the results are obvious.

[ironwill2008]

For a guy who is following the "SS" program would you think to do these on DL day ( 3X/2weeks) as opposed to every time you Squat 3X/week)?

Or maybe just do them every Fri?

Also, do you have a link to a video tutorial that you like? I am going to add these but, honestly, I am a bit wary of them.

I'd do them once a week. You can put them wherever you see fit, but I'd do them after Deadlifts if you put them on that day.

This vid is good for the form the guy uses. What's important is to keep an arch in the back at all times, and to initiate the move by sticking your butt out.

[BrotherWolf]

IMO, if you do not have the mental ability you are going to have a miserable time achieving your physical goals. The human body does not normally crave physical work. It's a day by day battle.. The cool thing is, that the proof is in the pudding. Whether the goal be gaining strength or reshaping your physique, the results are obvious.

That is so true...I am a pretty lazy one but the instant results I got by doing SS
was enough to turn me and keep me going