20 pull up challenge

[uk3mi]

I still cant do a single pull up from dead hang...

If I jump into a strong position for the first one, then I can do 2 and 1/2 in a row. But from a dead hang...nope

What do you think of this exercise:

youtube.com/watch?v=JZMw2fAfLvg (sorry can't posts URLs yet)

I do them on rings I attached to my pull up bar, its quite fun. Not sure if it helps 'normal' pull ups tho.

[KyleAaron]

uk3mi, I recommend inverted rows as a preparation for chinups.



Begin with your knees bent, if you can do at least 10 in one go, stretch out your legs and pivot on your heels, keeping the body straight, no need to elevate feet or anything like that at this stage. You can do them from under a chair or table, or set the bar for the Smith machine at mid-thigh height and do them.

With any bodyweight work, the simplest way is to just work on your total. First workout, do 10 chinups, or pressups, or whatever you're trying to improve. Whether you do 10 in one go, or 5,5, or 4,3,2,1, or 1,1,1,.. doesn't matter. Do as many as you can in one go, then as many sets as needed to get that total of 10. Next workout, do a total of 11 or more. Third workout, do more than in the second. Work on the total, don't worry too much about how many you can do in one go.

When you can do a total of 50 inverted rows (or pressups, etc), you will probably be able to do 10 or more in one go. Total of 100, 20 or more in one go. If you can do 20 inverted rows in one go, you will be able to do a few chinups.

I don't recommend doing any exercise upside-down unless you are a trained gymnast - in which case you could do chinups already.

[uk3mi]

Thanks for the method, sounds good! Some time ago, somebody here advised me to do inverted rows indeed. Now I can do about 10-12 in a row (straight body, feet on the floor). This has helped yes. At first, I couldn't hold any up/down movement even when jumping into a higher starting position. I'll start working on the total then, rather than focusing on how many in a go.

I have difficulty when my arms are full extended basically, if they are a little bit bend then its ok (but well it doesn't qualify as a pull up then..). Same for chin up. What does that mean, that my back muscles are still too weak compared to my arms? Or is this the shoulder position issue mentioned above?

Why do say that for upside down exercises ? (I mean apart from security issues, indeed I'm careful, use a mat, and don't do this to failure of course, and not when I feel tired)
eg I take aerial classes (silk/trapeze), most us can't do full pull ups yet (it's a beginner course), still we work on inverted straddle and the likes, you still need to start somewhere I think (as long as you're in a secure environment with people spotting).

[KyleAaron]

You probably need some more back strength. You can get that from inverted rows, dumbell one-armed rows, cable rows, and so on.

From a "dead hang" with your shoulders up, the first part of the motion is coming from your lower trapezius, this pulls your scapula (shoulderblade) downwards. The latissimus dorsi - the v-shaped flare at the back - then starts pulling on your humerus (upper arm bone). However, with your elbows extended (your arms straight), the biceps brachii and brachialis come into it, because those muscles flex your elbow. In terms of the force generated, the back muscles are more important than the arm muscles in the bottom half of the motion, and vice versa in the top half.

In this respect it's like the bench press, where the pectoralis major (chest muscles) are most important from the chest to halfway, and the triceps (back of arms) from halfway to lockout. The closer the hands are to the torso, the more important are the muscles of the torso.

So from the bottom, a person with back muscles weaker than arms will find the bottom half of the movement most difficult; one with arm muscles weaker than back will find the top half harder. For example, a guy who'd done years of biceps curls and not much else, if he jumped he could do the top half of the motion, but mightn't be able to get up there by himself.

It's most common for the toros muscles to be the weakest link the torso-arms-legs chain. That's just lifestyle, when we do things day-to-day we'll move our arms or legs, and won't put our whole body into it.

Anyway, inverted rows are the way to go to work up to chinups. There are a lot more places you can do inverted rows compared to chins with resistance bands or whatever, and it saves a lot of messing about. Other rowing stuff works, though. One woman (now 72kg) I've worked with, we weren't aiming to get her to do chinups, but she went from 3 knee pressups, 10 struggling lunges, and about 2-3 inverted rows with knees bent, worked up to 62.5kg front squats, 27.5kg overhead presses and 105kg deadlifts (as of yesterday) - she did a chinup 2-3 weeks ago. She's actually done very few rows. The upper back strength from cleaning the bar up from the ground for front squat and overhead press, the lower back and grip strength from deadlifts - it's been enough.

So a traditional strength workout will get you chinups happening. But of course, if you really want chinups it's better to work directly for them, and that begins with inverted rows.

If you're doing aerial classes then you and your coaches know what you're doing, go for it. I just wouldn't recommend the ordinary gym-goer do upside-down pullups.

[st5p8]

uk3mi, I recommend inverted rows as a preparation for chinups.



Begin with your knees bent, if you can do at least 10 in one go, stretch out your legs and pivot on your heels, keeping the body straight, no need to elevate feet or anything like that at this stage. You can do them from under a chair or table, or set the bar for the Smith machine at mid-thigh height and do them.

With any bodyweight work, the simplest way is to just work on your total. First workout, do 10 chinups, or pressups, or whatever you're trying to improve. Whether you do 10 in one go, or 5,5, or 4,3,2,1, or 1,1,1,.. doesn't matter. Do as many as you can in one go, then as many sets as needed to get that total of 10. Next workout, do a total of 11 or more. Third workout, do more than in the second. Work on the total, don't worry too much about how many you can do in one go.

When you can do a total of 50 inverted rows (or pressups, etc), you will probably be able to do 10 or more in one go. Total of 100, 20 or more in one go. If you can do 20 inverted rows in one go, you will be able to do a few chinups.

I don't recommend doing any exercise upside-down unless you are a trained gymnast - in which case you could do chinups already.

Thanks for the video post. Very informative and helpful. I will be incorporating these exercises to my routine.

[uk3mi]

From a "dead hang" with your shoulders up, the first part of the motion is coming from your lower trapezius, this pulls your scapula (shoulderblade) downwards. The latissimus dorsi - the v-shaped flare at the back - then starts pulling on your humerus (upper arm bone). However, with your elbows extended (your arms straight), the biceps brachii and brachialis come into it, because those muscles flex your elbow. In terms of the force generated, the back muscles are more important than the arm muscles in the bottom half of the motion, and vice versa in the top half.

In this respect it's like the bench press, where the pectoralis major (chest muscles) are most important from the chest to halfway, and the triceps (back of arms) from halfway to lockout. The closer the hands are to the torso, the more important are the muscles of the torso.

So from the bottom, a person with back muscles weaker than arms will find the bottom half of the movement most difficult; one with arm muscles weaker than back will find the top half harder. For example, a guy who'd done years of biceps curls and not much else, if he jumped he could do the top half of the motion, but mightn't be able to get up there by himself.

very useful explanation, thanks! that's exactly what's happening I think. Same when I do aerial silk work, I tend to bend my arms to use the biceps rather than the back. Actually one of the teachers told me that last Friday, I didn't fully comprehend til now!

One woman (now 72kg) I've worked with, we weren't aiming to get her to do chinups, but she went from 3 knee pressups, 10 struggling lunges, and about 2-3 inverted rows with knees bent, worked up to 62.5kg front squats, 27.5kg overhead presses and 105kg deadlifts (as of yesterday) - she did a chinup 2-3 weeks ago. She's actually done very few rows. The upper back strength from cleaning the bar up from the ground for front squat and overhead press, the lower back and grip strength from deadlifts - it's been enough.

How long did it take her roughly?

One thing that has hindered me is that I have been training at home with dumbbells only and I'm running out of plates. Eg 1 arm row, the max I can use is 25lbs dumbbells, but I feel I could do much more than that. On the other hand I have also used 15 to 25lbs for biceps curls. Clearly some silly imbalance here..

But from tomorrow on, this is changing! I'm going to hit the gym with a personal trainer. I'll start barbell training and compound movements. I'm really looking forward to this!

When I started, I wasn't too sure what to do, so I went for P90X classics... I just finished it, it is nice but it's all split+isolated exercises. I mainly improved in chest/biceps/tri. For pullups, they suggest using a resistance band when you can't do full pullups (resistance band loops around pullup bar, you sit on the floor and pull), but that has gotten me nowhere. Then I discovered this website, which is really a mine of information!

[just.demi]

I can do about three, but I don't count them because when I start, my elbows are slightly bent. I'm working hard and purchased a pull-up bar, so I can practice every day.

For a little inspiration check this lady out. She recently broke the world record for pull-ups. She can do all different kinds. Truly amazing.

http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/cwpullups/

[hmotb555]

You just focus on your front squat, deadlift and overhead press I gave you, woman! Once you reach your goal lifts then we'll add 3 exercises, and among them will be a row. The deadlifts are giving you the grip strength for chins, the row will give you the back and bicep strength. You'll get there, just focus

LOL! I am focused, I promise....I have a pull-up bar at home so I always hop on it to see if I can get further than I could before. I can do a chin-up...pull-ups have just been that one exercise that I could never get...but I know I'll get there especially as I drop more fat and with the lifts you gave me, I know I'll build strength....I can't wait to get back to doing rows, they have always been a part of my routine, I can't wait until I can put up some big numbers with that lift!

[discdoggie]

So kyle, I can do wide grip pull ups, but not 20. My first set I can make 12-13. The next two sets I reach failure at 6 -7 or so. To reach 20, should I just keep eeking out "1 more" on set # 1, or should I stop, rest, and try and get out more on the consecutive 2 sets?

[KyleAaron]

Actually one of the teachers told me that last Friday, I didn't fully comprehend til now!

That's the way things work, we learn best if we've got a few different ways to take it in. Plus sometimes it takes a while for knowledge to "digest"... or at least for me.

How long did it take her roughly?

It was 4 months in all, 3 months with me interrupted by a month on her own. Again remember that she wasn't actually trying to get to do chinups. Her primary goal isn't strength or fitness, just looks. She wanted to lose fat and gain muscle. It just so happened that during a rest between sets she looked at the pullup bar and wondered out loud if she could do one. I said, "give it a go," expecting I might have to give her an assist, but she did it without trouble.

One who trained for that specific goal could achieve it more quickly.

One thing that has hindered me is that I have been training at home with dumbbells only and I'm running out of plates.

Actually that needn't be a problem. There are always different exercises you can do. As well as progression in weight, sets and reps, there's a progression between exercises. For example,

knee pressups --> full pressups ---> pressups with feet on chair --> pressups with feet on wall at waist height ---> chest height ---> handstand pressups supported by wall ---> free handstand pressups

Progress through those and you'd get stronger. Eat to support it, and your muscles would get bigger, too. Weights aren't needed, they just make things more convenient. Also, progressing through exercises often requires good balance, so weight plates allow klutzes like me to get stronger.

Eg 1 arm row, the max I can use is 25lbs dumbbells, but I feel I could do much more than that. On the other hand I have also used 15 to 25lbs for biceps curls. Clearly some silly imbalance here..

No imbalance at all. When you curl, you're using mainly one muscle (biceps brachii). When you row, you're using several muscles (biceps brachii, posterior deltoid, middle trapezius, latissimus dorsi, etc). In general, you can move more in a compound movement (two or more joints moving) than an isolation movement (one joint moving) simply because more muscles are involved.

But from tomorrow on, this is changing! I'm going to hit the gym with a personal trainer. I'll start barbell training and compound movements. I'm really looking forward to this!

Excellent, so I don't have to suggest different exercises so you can do it all at home with the equipment you've got

For pullups, they suggest using a resistance band when you can't do full pullups (resistance band loops around pullup bar, you sit on the floor and pull), but that has gotten me nowhere.

In principle it should work, in practice I've never seen anyone progress from assisted chinups (on machine or bands) to full ones. From inverted rows to chins, many times. However, those on the assistance machines and with the bands tend to be working on their own rather than having a trainer, coach or training partner. And for most people it's harder to progress on their own. Consistent effort over time gets results, but consistent effort over time is not easy.

[KyleAaron]

So kyle, I can do wide grip pull ups, but not 20. My first set I can make 12-13. The next two sets I reach failure at 6 -7 or so. To reach 20, should I just keep eeking out "1 more" on set # 1, or should I stop, rest, and try and get out more on the consecutive 2 sets?

Don't worry about sets. Just aim for a certain total.

So okay, at the moment you can do 12-13 + 6-7, or 18-20. Rightyo, in your next workout aim for a total of 20. It doesn't matter if you do them 13,7, or 12,6,2, or 5,5,5,5 or whatever - just get 21. Workout after that, you must get at least 21 total. After that, at least 1 more, and so on.

Since I came back weak from my overseas trip, the below has been my progression. In my first set I pump out all the reps I can, after that I just do what feels comfortable. I find that if you go to failure on every set, you quickly become fatigued, and instead of (for example) 3,3,3,3 = 12 you get 5,3,1,1,1,1 = 12. Takes longer to get through the exercise and it's depressing to keep failing.

For reference, my chinup "bar" is actually two handles slightly wider than shoulder-width apart. So I'm using a "neutral" grip. I do each rep from dead hang, and the rep only counts if my chest hits where the bar would be. No leg swaying allowed to help me get up there. The most I have ever done in one go is I think 24, but that was in 1997. Last year I worked up to 12, which is my current goal.

2010-04-26 = 4,4,2 = 10 - at this stage, I allowed 2'00" for every set, work and rest altogether. I was also doing deadlifts before the chins.
2010-04-30 = 4,4,4 = 12
2010-05-02 = 4,4,4,3 = 15
2010-05-05 = 4,4,4,3,3 = 18
2010-05-08 = 5,4,4,3,3 = 19
2010-05-09 = 5,5,4,4,3 = 21
2010-05-11 = 5,5,4,4,4 = 22
2010-05-13 = 5,5,3,3,3,4 = 23 - after the 5th set, I went and did some other exercises and came back to it
2010-05-16 = 6,6,4,3,4,3 = 26
2010-05-18 = 6,5,5,5,5,4 = 30 - here I started doing chins first and deadlifts afterwards
2010-05-24 = 7,7,6,4,1,3,4 = 32 - I pushed a bit harder and got exhausted, after the 5th 1-rep set I went and did some other exercises and came back to it
2010-05-28 = 7,7,7,7,3,2,2 = 35 - I thought I could have done 8 or even 9 here, but after the experience of dropping down to just 1 rep in the last workout, I wanted to pace myself. But I also wanted to improve a bit more on bodyweight work, which was hard to do in the same session with deadlifts and front squats. So at this stage I split my workouts, instead of aiming at 2-3 workouts a week with mixed bodyweight and weights work, I will do 4-6 workouts a week, alternating bodyweight workouts with weights workouts. As well, the bodyweight exercises I work through, eg chins 5 then squats 20 then pressups 20, rather than all the chins, then all the squats, then all the pressups; spreading out the work in this way lets individual body parts rest a bit longer between sets while still keeping the overall workload high. I still have 2'00" per set.
2010-05-30 = 7,7,7,4,4,4,3 = 36

In the beginning when your total is low you can do all your sets of the bodyweight exercise together. But at some stage it becomes quite fatiguing, and as you've experienced the reps will drop off, getting 12-13 on the first set and only 7-8 on the second. So then it can be good to rotate through exercises. For example, if you're in the power cage at the gym doing squats, between squat sets you could knock a couple of reps of chins out.

This is the approach Army uses in building up pressups. In the first week you're given 10 for punishment. If you can't do 10 in one go, they keep standing there yelling at you until you get a total of 10 out. Then they might add a couple, "and another for Her Majesty" or "and one more for the Regiment." In the second week, 20. And so on. And these come at random times throughout the day, multiple times. Your total goes up, it doesn't matter that the total is spread out through other exercises or even the whole day. If you do more reps every workout than you did last time, you'll progress, get stronger, and eventually be able to do 20.

Progress ain't quick on chinups, it ain't an easy exercise. I mean, if you started with just 4 full pressups then in a month you could be doing 30 in one go, no worries. But as you see I've gone from 4 to 7 chinups in the same time. Others will progress faster, I am nearly 39 and my nutrition is not always spot-on, nor have I worked out as regularly as I might have. In this I think I'm a good example of the ordinary gym-goer - decent but not great nutrition, decent but not great attendance and dedication.

Less dedicated and organised people may not progress at all. More dedicated and organised people will go faster.

[discdoggie]

Don't worry about sets. Just aim for a certain total.

So okay, at the moment you can do 12-13 + 6-7, or 18-20. Rightyo, in your next workout aim for a total of 20. It doesn't matter if you do them 13,7, or 12,6,2, or 5,5,5,5 or whatever - just get 21. Workout after that, you must get at least 21 total. After that, at least 1 more, and so on.

Since I came back weak from my overseas trip, the below has been my progression. In my first set I pump out all the reps I can, after that I just do what feels comfortable. I find that if you go to failure on every set, you quickly become fatigued, and instead of (for example) 3,3,3,3 = 12 you get 5,3,1,1,1,1 = 12. Takes longer to get through the exercise and it's depressing to keep failing.

For reference, my chinup "bar" is actually two handles slightly wider than shoulder-width apart. So I'm using a "neutral" grip. I do each rep from dead hang, and the rep only counts if my chest hits where the bar would be. No leg swaying allowed to help me get up there. The most I have ever done in one go is I think 24, but that was in 1997. Last year I worked up to 12, which is my current goal.

2010-04-26 = 4,4,2 = 10 - at this stage, I allowed 2'00" for every set, work and rest altogether. I was also doing deadlifts before the chins.
2010-04-30 = 4,4,4 = 12
2010-05-02 = 4,4,4,3 = 15
2010-05-05 = 4,4,4,3,3 = 18
2010-05-08 = 5,4,4,3,3 = 19
2010-05-09 = 5,5,4,4,3 = 21
2010-05-11 = 5,5,4,4,4 = 22
2010-05-13 = 5,5,3,3,3,4 = 23 - after the 5th set, I went and did some other exercises and came back to it
2010-05-16 = 6,6,4,3,4,3 = 26
2010-05-18 = 6,5,5,5,5,4 = 30 - here I started doing chins first and deadlifts afterwards
2010-05-24 = 7,7,6,4,1,3,4 = 32 - I pushed a bit harder and got exhausted, after the 5th 1-rep set I went and did some other exercises and came back to it
2010-05-28 = 7,7,7,7,3,2,2 = 35 - I thought I could have done 8 or even 9 here, but after the experience of dropping down to just 1 rep in the last workout, I wanted to pace myself. But I also wanted to improve a bit more on bodyweight work, which was hard to do in the same session with deadlifts and front squats. So at this stage I split my workouts, instead of aiming at 2-3 workouts a week with mixed bodyweight and weights work, I will do 4-6 workouts a week, alternating bodyweight workouts with weights workouts. As well, the bodyweight exercises I work through, eg chins 5 then squats 20 then pressups 20, rather than all the chins, then all the squats, then all the pressups; spreading out the work in this way lets individual body parts rest a bit longer between sets while still keeping the overall workload high. I still have 2'00" per set.
2010-05-30 = 7,7,7,4,4,4,3 = 36

In the beginning when your total is low you can do all your sets of the bodyweight exercise together. But at some stage it becomes quite fatiguing, and as you've experienced the reps will drop off, getting 12-13 on the first set and only 7-8 on the second. So then it can be good to rotate through exercises. For example, if you're in the power cage at the gym doing squats, between squat sets you could knock a couple of reps of chins out.

This is the approach Army uses in building up pressups. In the first week you're given 10 for punishment. If you can't do 10 in one go, they keep standing there yelling at you until you get a total of 10 out. Then they might add a couple, "and another for Her Majesty" or "and one more for the Regiment." In the second week, 20. And so on. And these come at random times throughout the day, multiple times. Your total goes up, it doesn't matter that the total is spread out through other exercises or even the whole day. If you do more reps every workout than you did last time, you'll progress, get stronger, and eventually be able to do 20.

Progress ain't quick on chinups, it ain't an easy exercise. I mean, if you started with just 4 full pressups then in a month you could be doing 30 in one go, no worries. But as you see I've gone from 4 to 7 chinups in the same time. Others will progress faster, I am nearly 39 and my nutrition is not always spot-on, nor have I worked out as regularly as I might have. In this I think I'm a good example of the ordinary gym-goer - decent but not great nutrition, decent but not great attendance and dedication.

Less dedicated and organised people may not progress at all. More dedicated and organised people will go faster.

Thanks! Also impressed at your detailed training log.

[KyleAaron]

If you want to progress, you have to keep a log. If you don't know where you've been then how do you know where you are, how far you've come, or where to go next? It also becomes a record of what works for you and what doesn't. In a recent chat between Rippetoe and Staley, Rip mentions visiting a mainstream gym and looking around saying "where is everyone's logs? how do they know what they're doing without a log?"

By the way, this evening I was demonstrating chins to a client, I knocked out 9 before I couldn't go on - the last was pretty grindy, I really had to resist the temptation to swing my legs. So this shows you what I mean, that if you work on the total, you'll also improve the amount you can do in one go. Again, 4 to 9 in a bit over a month, others could do better than me without a doubt. This perhaps answers SarcasticWalrus' question about whether 0 to 20 in 2 months is realistic. I think it is if you train mainly for that, and if your nutrition and rest are spot on. If a client asked for it, I'd probably want 3-4 months to be sure.

It's bloody hard work.

[discdoggie]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5y6KinTF1I

Believe it or not, there was actually 15 of these, the camera didn't start recording until pull up #3. They are neutral grip, which I find much easier than wide-grip.

I'm gettin' there. Twenty pull ups, here I come!

[hmotb555]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5y6KinTF1I

Believe it or not, there was actually 15 of these, the camera didn't start recording until pull up #3. They are neutral grip, which I find much easier than wide-grip.

I'm gettin' there. Twenty pull ups, here I come!

wow! rock on!

[Bowiechick]

uk3mi, I recommend inverted rows as a preparation for chinups.



Begin with your knees bent, if you can do at least 10 in one go, stretch out your legs and pivot on your heels, keeping the body straight, no need to elevate feet or anything like that at this stage. You can do them from under a chair or table, or set the bar for the Smith machine at mid-thigh height and do them.

With any bodyweight work, the simplest way is to just work on your total. First workout, do 10 chinups, or pressups, or whatever you're trying to improve. Whether you do 10 in one go, or 5,5, or 4,3,2,1, or 1,1,1,.. doesn't matter. Do as many as you can in one go, then as many sets as needed to get that total of 10. Next workout, do a total of 11 or more. Third workout, do more than in the second. Work on the total, don't worry too much about how many you can do in one go.

When you can do a total of 50 inverted rows (or pressups, etc), you will probably be able to do 10 or more in one go. Total of 100, 20 or more in one go. If you can do 20 inverted rows in one go, you will be able to do a few chinups.

I don't recommend doing any exercise upside-down unless you are a trained gymnast - in which case you could do chinups already.

I LOVE THIS! I cant believe i havent done/seen this before! Thx! cant wait to try it...

[KyleAaron]

Believe it or not, there was actually 15 of these, the camera didn't start recording until pull up #3. They are neutral grip, which I find much easier than wide-grip.

Well done! I think you can squeeze out 2 more just by starting the pull with your left arm at the same time - you're starting the pull with your right to give you the first impulse up, so you're effectively doing a one-handed pull for a few inches. This will tire out your muscles quicker, so you get less total. If you pull with both evenly, you'll get another couple of reps, I think.

I was impressed that you continued despite the distraction of the dog coming up to say, "what are you doing?"

Well done, keep going.

[jagadzie]

oh my goodness, discdoggie, you are doing GREAT! awesome work!!!

[discdoggie]

Well done! I think you can squeeze out 2 more just by starting the pull with your left arm at the same time - you're starting the pull with your right to give you the first impulse up, so you're effectively doing a one-handed pull for a few inches. This will tire out your muscles quicker, so you get less total. If you pull with both evenly, you'll get another couple of reps, I think.

I was impressed that you continued despite the distraction of the dog coming up to say, "what are you doing?"

Well done, keep going.

Thanks! In the one I entered with palms out grip (I got 12) my dog went beyond looking and actually started jumping. (Okay, humping. ) Interestingly, apparently mine is not the first, but the second entry with a dog trying to hump.

[KyleAaron]

Well, all of us like a strong woman, just some of us find it harder to contain our excitement.

[discdoggie]

Well, all of us like a strong woman, just some of us find it harder to contain our excitement.

<Snork!>

[uk3mi]

youtube.com/watch?v=I5y6KinTF1I

Believe it or not, there was actually 15 of these, the camera didn't start recording until pull up #3. They are neutral grip, which I find much easier than wide-grip.

I'm gettin' there. Twenty pull ups, here I come!

wow!! great inspiration!

[uk3mi]

KyleAaron,

Actually that needn't be a problem. There are always different exercises you can do. As well as progression in weight, sets and reps, there's a progression between exercises. For example,

knee pressups --> full pressups ---> pressups with feet on chair --> pressups with feet on wall at waist height ---> chest height ---> handstand pressups supported by wall ---> free handstand pressups

Progress through those and you'd get stronger. Eat to support it, and your muscles would get bigger, too. Weights aren't needed, they just make things more convenient. Also, progressing through exercises often requires good balance, so weight plates allow klutzes like me to get stronger.

Love the variety of things that can be done to train.
I'm disgressing from the main topic but what do you think of 'Building the gymnastic body'? There are nice variations from beginner (eg just holding handstand) to 'tough'. It's mostly based on body weight

No imbalance at all. When you curl, you're using mainly one muscle (biceps brachii). When you row, you're using several muscles (biceps brachii, posterior deltoid, middle trapezius, latissimus dorsi, etc). In general, you can move more in a compound movement (two or more joints moving) than an isolation movement (one joint moving) simply because more muscles are involved.

what I meant is that lifting almost the same weight for rows vs curls was not very challenging (for the row side). Now I had my 1rpms tested, it was very interesting and exciting because I had only used dumbbells so far, and I have never done powerlifting moves before:

squat: 40kgs (I'm totally ashamed)
bench press: 35kgs
deadlift: 72.5kgs
shoulder press: 25kgs
BB rows: 38.5 kgs
BB curls, didn't do a 1RPM test but did: 14 kgs, 3x10reps

I almost bench as much as I squat, lol, which could be a nice thing to say, unfortunately, it just a pity! (and my legs are screaming!)
Anyway pardon the newbie stats, but it was quite fun to do and I'm really looking forward to upping those numbers!

On close grip pull downs, I only could do 25/25=50kgs, and I'm 60kgs something, so indeed...

[KyleAaron]

I think gymnastic exercises are an excellent way to build strength, muscular endurance, cardiovascular fitness, flexibility and balance. Unfortunately they require a lot of time to do that. See for example Damien Walters, who has trained for 3-4 hours a day for 20 years.

The iron just gets quicker results in the strength and physique change most people are seeking, because you're developing mainly your strength - whereas with bodyweight training, you're developing strength, muscular endurance, cardiovascular fitness, flexibility and balance. It takes longer to develop five things at once than one.

The basic ones, any healthy non-obese adult can manage with time and patience - like these pullups, and they are an excellent preparation for those getting into weight training. You need a certain amount of those five things to get much out of weight training.

The lower squat strength is unusual for a woman. Either you've been training bench for a while and neglecting legs, or your squat technique needs work. Don't be worried about the "newbie numbers", it doesn't matter where you are only where you're going. In every session do more, more and more - more weight, more reps or more sets. Then you're progressing. "How strong are you?" should never be answered with weights, but with "Stronger than I was yesterday."

You'll find that pulldowns, as with machines generally, do not translate well into free weights or bodyweight exercises. It's because you have to stabilise free weights and your bodyweight, but not a machine.

The way to get stronger at a particular exercise is to do that particular exercise. If you can't do it for some reason, you do the exercise closest to it. The closest exercise to pullups is not lat pulldowns, but the inverted row.

[mommalu]

I was up to 10 pull ups before I entered a figure show. Then my strength went all downhill.
I'm back into training and am ready for the challenge.
You can also see me doing my pull ups here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aUH0gFrIFw

[uk3mi]

I was up to 10 pull ups before I entered a figure show. Then my strength went all downhill.
I'm back into training and am ready for the challenge.
You can also see me doing my pull ups here:

impressive! do you get looks at the gym?

Damien Walters who has trained for 3-4 hours a day for 20 years.

ouch I was afraid he would bump his head to the gym's ceiling! and in the end he did hang to the ceiling!

The lower squat strength is unusual for a woman. Either you've been training bench for a while and neglecting legs, or your squat technique needs work.

It was the first time I benched ever. I spent the last 10 years doing no regular sport (only aikido for a year or so) and my day job is IT, meaning I sit in a chair most of the time. If you remove the fat around my legs & bum, you will probably find hypotrophied muscles :~
When I started committing again, I did P90X classics (completed last month). This program is perhaps stronger on the upper body than the legs. Doing aerial stuff probably contributed some too. I otherwise do horse riding, which is supposed to require some strong legs (hamstrings)... but they are my weakness, I can feel it and I'm told so almost every lesson..

On the squat, when warmin up, I was told I was going too low and it was not so good because I was locking myself once down. I do have difficulty to find and hold the parallel-to-the-floor line. Either too high, or too low (= no leg muscles whatsoever? of all muscles my quadriceps hurt the most)

The closest exercise to pullups is not lat pulldowns, but the inverted row.

I hear you :]

[just.demi]

Don't worry about sets. Just aim for a certain total.

So okay, at the moment you can do 12-13 + 6-7, or 18-20. Rightyo, in your next workout aim for a total of 20. It doesn't matter if you do them 13,7, or 12,6,2, or 5,5,5,5 or whatever - just get 21. Workout after that, you must get at least 21 total. After that, at least 1 more, and so on.

Since I came back weak from my overseas trip, the below has been my progression. In my first set I pump out all the reps I can, after that I just do what feels comfortable. I find that if you go to failure on every set, you quickly become fatigued, and instead of (for example) 3,3,3,3 = 12 you get 5,3,1,1,1,1 = 12. Takes longer to get through the exercise and it's depressing to keep failing.

For reference, my chinup "bar" is actually two handles slightly wider than shoulder-width apart. So I'm using a "neutral" grip. I do each rep from dead hang, and the rep only counts if my chest hits where the bar would be. No leg swaying allowed to help me get up there. The most I have ever done in one go is I think 24, but that was in 1997. Last year I worked up to 12, which is my current goal.

2010-04-26 = 4,4,2 = 10 - at this stage, I allowed 2'00" for every set, work and rest altogether. I was also doing deadlifts before the chins.
2010-04-30 = 4,4,4 = 12
2010-05-02 = 4,4,4,3 = 15
2010-05-05 = 4,4,4,3,3 = 18
2010-05-08 = 5,4,4,3,3 = 19
2010-05-09 = 5,5,4,4,3 = 21
2010-05-11 = 5,5,4,4,4 = 22
2010-05-13 = 5,5,3,3,3,4 = 23 - after the 5th set, I went and did some other exercises and came back to it
2010-05-16 = 6,6,4,3,4,3 = 26
2010-05-18 = 6,5,5,5,5,4 = 30 - here I started doing chins first and deadlifts afterwards
2010-05-24 = 7,7,6,4,1,3,4 = 32 - I pushed a bit harder and got exhausted, after the 5th 1-rep set I went and did some other exercises and came back to it
2010-05-28 = 7,7,7,7,3,2,2 = 35 - I thought I could have done 8 or even 9 here, but after the experience of dropping down to just 1 rep in the last workout, I wanted to pace myself. But I also wanted to improve a bit more on bodyweight work, which was hard to do in the same session with deadlifts and front squats. So at this stage I split my workouts, instead of aiming at 2-3 workouts a week with mixed bodyweight and weights work, I will do 4-6 workouts a week, alternating bodyweight workouts with weights workouts. As well, the bodyweight exercises I work through, eg chins 5 then squats 20 then pressups 20, rather than all the chins, then all the squats, then all the pressups; spreading out the work in this way lets individual body parts rest a bit longer between sets while still keeping the overall workload high. I still have 2'00" per set.
2010-05-30 = 7,7,7,4,4,4,3 = 36

In the beginning when your total is low you can do all your sets of the bodyweight exercise together. But at some stage it becomes quite fatiguing, and as you've experienced the reps will drop off, getting 12-13 on the first set and only 7-8 on the second. So then it can be good to rotate through exercises. For example, if you're in the power cage at the gym doing squats, between squat sets you could knock a couple of reps of chins out.

This is the approach Army uses in building up pressups. In the first week you're given 10 for punishment. If you can't do 10 in one go, they keep standing there yelling at you until you get a total of 10 out. Then they might add a couple, "and another for Her Majesty" or "and one more for the Regiment." In the second week, 20. And so on. And these come at random times throughout the day, multiple times. Your total goes up, it doesn't matter that the total is spread out through other exercises or even the whole day. If you do more reps every workout than you did last time, you'll progress, get stronger, and eventually be able to do 20.

Progress ain't quick on chinups, it ain't an easy exercise. I mean, if you started with just 4 full pressups then in a month you could be doing 30 in one go, no worries. But as you see I've gone from 4 to 7 chinups in the same time. Others will progress faster, I am nearly 39 and my nutrition is not always spot-on, nor have I worked out as regularly as I might have. In this I think I'm a good example of the ordinary gym-goer - decent but not great nutrition, decent but not great attendance and dedication.

Less dedicated and organised people may not progress at all. More dedicated and organised people will go faster.

All of this! I have to just say, I got in my first pull-up from a dead hang today following this advice. Thanks. Initially, I started with slightly bent elbows figuring I could only get stronger. It worked. I finally pulled myself up from a dead hang today. THanks again!

[KyleAaron]

Well done, Demi. Now that you can do 1, you can do 5 in your workout. And then next time 6. Then 7, and so on.

Soon you'll be pumping them out like a madwoman, impressing people at parties.