Waxy Maize Starch

[ianfkirby]

i think he was implying the other things found in food like vitamins, antioxidants, ect.

Exactly, a bevy of micro-constituents that are great for many different processes inside your body (don't ask me to quote off a list)

And a calorie is not a calorie per se. Yes, when it comes to the total overall energy balance in your body, a deficit or surplus of calories will determine whether you gain or lose WEIGHT. But this does not take things like protein synthesis or nitrogen balance into consideration. If a calorie is a calorie, you should be able to live on nothing but WMS and Whey protein (and you know if it could be done, there would be people out there hardcore enough to do it lol).

The nature of those calories is going to greatly determine the composition of your body, state of mind and satiety. You need a balanced blend of different macro and micro nutrients to perform at your highest level, period. You can eat 3,000 kcals a day in chocolate and beef jerky and hit the weights for a month compared to a month eating 3,000 kcals a day in balanced sources of whole foods and I guarantee your performance and results will be dramatically different.

WMS may no bloat you, but its doing very little else for you. You put food in your body to fuel you and to perform certain tasks. What's the point of putting watered-down gas in your tank? That's what WMS essentially appears to be.

Apples to apples, WMS, Dex, malt etc. are nearly the worst sources of CHO you can put in your body period. I am not saying YOU shouldn't do it, its your body, but the fact is that ANY other carb source would be better for your body and IMHO, the only reason we are all on these boards is to maximize our results.

Every single time you use a simple sugar or powdered CHO you are missing out on a chance to put something "more powerful" into your body.

This is not even considering the possible generally detrimental health effects of spiking insulin regularly over a long period of time as most bb'ers do (the ones who still follow that supp. industry BS anyway- sorry, jus sayin', they are getting rich selling you pounds of sugar for ridiculous rates- it is a business and they need to turn a profit)

Whole Foods = long term health AND Royal Beastliness

[nano.ix]

Go on...explain what you do and why.

explain why you take your WMS w/o using brologic and i may

[ianfkirby]

explain why you take your WMS w/o using brologic and i may

LOL, that may be one hell of a caveat ;-)

[sl4vik]

explain why you take your WMS w/o using brologic and i may

I already told you why I use it:

1) I don't have any bloat from it
2) I use it as a "pump" to shuttle in creatine post workout. I am aware that WMS doesn't actually restore glycogen stores faster than anything else.
3) It is very cost efficient and convenient
4) It tastes like nothing and thickens my shake
5) Food is food, WMS is a food. You keep mentioning "whole foods" Did you know that a protein shake can be just as beneficial as "whole food?"

I agree that I believe simple sugars are not good for the body, which is why I take WMS. Most people believe it drastically spikes your insulin, but in fact, it is considered a lot lower in glycemic value compared to malto or dextrose. You also mention that WMS is accomplishing nothing for me. I disagree, it accomplishes a lot.


I could easily use any other carb like oatmeal or something like a sweet potatoe. However, I don't like eating oatmeal more than once a day, and a potatoe takes a while to cook. Post workout I don't feel like preparing myself a meal so I use the convenience of a shake.

[sgt_kelly]

I use both. One scoop of WMS and 1/4 cup of oats. But I don't bother with grinding. Just throw em down and chase with my shake.

i use wms and oats as well!! but i usually do the wms post workout with my protien shake, with an extra scoop of glutamine, and i almost always do a 1/2 cup of oats in my morning shake!!
i guess wms is more excepted and geared towards lifters, and it is definately marketed that way!! but everyone has there choice of post workout carbs they take, but i get no bloating at all from wms! which is fine by me!

[seriouslifter]

wms sucks, dex FTW

[ksheab]

cmon Nano-

i keep reading your snappy replies to broscience issues, yet, i dont seem to be seeing any formal reasoning accompanying them.

its time, i think lol, for you to let people know what you do exactly and the formal rationality, logic, scientific research, whatever, behind it.

[ianfkirby]

I already told you why I use it:

1) I don't have any bloat from it

This point taken, but also addressed at end of my post

2) I use it as a "pump" to shuttle in creatine post workout. I am aware that WMS doesn't actually restore glycogen stores faster than anything else.

It has been established that the WMS doesn't move through any quicker than we thought and the notion of it shuttling nutrients more quickly/directly through your system just doesn't seem to be true. If it doesn't restore glycogen any faster (which we have addressed the fact that this isn't important anyway unless your are endurance training in a fasted state) it isn't delivering any other nutrients any faster either. In fact, it seems like it may even be wasting those nutrients. Remember I posted earlier that I took my WF/GM/PW pre WO with WMS using this same logic and once I tried it again without the WMS I felt much more pronounced affects from my supps.

None of this has been proven though and I would encourage everyone to reread this article carefully http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/waxy...tarch_myth.htm

3) It is very cost efficient and convenient

This is a matter of personal preference, IMO it's not really cost effective because I could be putting that money towards a whole food source, not something that provides no nutritive value to my overall diet. It is just an empty carb source. As for convenience, again IMO nothing in Bodybuilding is about convenience. We live this lifestyle because it takes dedication, hard work and a lot of inconvenience. I think every time you have to do something just for convenience's sake, you are really cutting a corner.

4) It tastes like nothing and thickens my shake

I personally struggle with my shake being too thick, but that's because of the milk and oats ;-) WMS just makes it chalky IMO

5) Food is food, WMS is a food. You keep mentioning "whole foods" Did you know that a protein shake can be just as beneficial as "whole food?"

I don't agree with "Food is Food." If this was the case, bb'ers could eat anything they wanted as long as they met their caloric needs, but we all know WHAT you eat has a major effect on performance, appearance, overall health etc. I wouldn't consider WMS a "food" as much as an ingredient. It's like saying flour or sugar is a food, but there is no nutritive value in them and they are not generally meant to be eaten as a stand alone food. I know scientifically they are foods, but for our purposes, they are just not optimal and that is what this game is about; finding the optimal combination of diet, training and supps to bear the greatest results. We should eat the best we can. If not, just skip the brown rice and chicken pre wo and just have some hamburger helper.

Furthermore, I think a lot of people are fooled by the convenience and huge hype around protein shakes. I don't think you could ever say they are just as good for you as whole foods and certainly not better. This will be the most hotly contended point here I am sure, but there are a lot of nutritionists/trainers/pros who will tell you whole foods are always better when they are possible.

In this month's MD, they mention the 'Pro Creator' Hany Rambod's method's in that he advises all his pro's to COMPLETELY ELIMINATE ALL SHAKES from their diets starting 12 weeks out! I was under the impression whole foods were better, but it did surprise me to see such a strict mantra from the guy who trains Jay Cutler, Phil Heath as well Mark Alvisi and Branden Ray two very strong amateurs that were the focus of the articles in MD mentioning Mr. Rambod.

I don't present any of this as anything more than anecdotal, but it still has strong implications in my minds. Granted, these guys are being told to slam massive amounts of pure egg whites PWO, lengths which I am sure not many of us are willing to go to, but it is 'Food' for thought.

Here is Rambod's perspective on shakes, as relayed by Branden Ray in this month's feature on him in MD (I have included it in it's entirety as to not take it out of context- notice shakes have their place here, but this adds perspective: "Hany is really big on food. He still let's me have a PWO shake in the off-season to let me take advantage of that anabolic window, but he got me away from using shakes as meal replacements at other times. One thing that he pointed out that I never realized was that drinking shakes on a regular basis kills your appetite. And if I didn't feel like eating, what would I do? Have another shake! It was a vicious cycle. Another thing Hany had me doing in the off-season was to have a nice big cheeseburger every third day, because the fat would help me grow. I was never into cheat meals, but I would go to someplace like Fuddrucker's and order a 1-pound burger. A lot of times I wouldn't even want it."

p.s., Here's what this guy looks like:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attach...1&d=1249316884

I agree that I believe simple sugars are not good for the body, which is why I take WMS. Most people believe it drastically spikes your insulin, but in fact, it is considered a lot lower in glycemic value compared to malto or dextrose.

This appears to be true at least. But just because it doesn't spike your insulin as much doesn't heavily impact its viability as a PWO carb source IMO, that is just a further reason NOT to use dex/malt and not an argument FOR WMS.

You also mention that WMS is accomplishing nothing for me. I disagree, it accomplishes a lot.

I think this may be absolutely true because you are dedicated to training and nutrition, so you will get results regardless, but to what degree could you optimize those results possibly by replacing WMS w/ better foods? I understand it's not always possible, I am just saying that when all else is equal, WMS/dex/malt should be a last result.

I could easily use any other carb like oatmeal or something like a sweet potatoe. However, I don't like eating oatmeal more than once a day,

Why?

Post workout I don't feel like preparing myself a meal so I use the convenience of a shake.

I like a shake to and use one myself (1c skim milk, 1 c oats, 1 scoop ON whey, 2 tbs splenda) and now that I have switched from a dex shake or WMS shake, I have been getting more gains while staying a lot leaner. I am just under 10% BF now and it has been a lot easier to get there since making the switch to "real" foods.

And as far as the bloat goes, I don't see any reason why one should slug this entire concoction down immediately to get it in some "PWO window of opportunity." I think this happens as long as you start consuming it right away. If you start drinking it immediately PWO, take maybe 1/4 of it and then consume the rest over the next hour, you are giving yourself a longer sustained release of nutrients (promoting further positive Nitrogen balance.) And even if you did pound it down, your body can only process it so quickly anyway, so its better to pace it a little IMO. Someone may immediately blow this theory out of the water, but it makes sense to me.

Just saying if you haven't tried and stuck to it, you should give it a go because I would be absolutely floored if you didn't make improved progress and at the very least sustain what you have done to date while adding additional nutrition to your diet and dropped one more supp you have to buy.

[ianfkirby]

Bump for further thoughts

[XTrnr02]

Research has shown WMS to perform not so well compared to Dex/Malt for speed of digestion and Insulin spike, if that's what you want.

Serch for David Barrs article on WMS for all the facts.

Even if WMS did what it says it should, IMO you should avoid ever spiking insulin and forget all that fast absorbing super recovery crap. A lot of really smart and well educated guys on here with degrees in this stuff will tell you a spike isn't necessary to blunt cortisol or "shuttle nutrients." Whey protein will provide sufficient insulin release in and of itself to blunt cortisol release.

And if you are taking it to speed restoration o glycogen stores, there are 2 important points to bear in mind:

1.Why do you need to do it so fast? You don't, unless you have trained to complete depletion of glycogen and are in a fasted state, this only occurs after 90 min of continuous excercise and isn't really a consideration in bodybuilding, only endurance sports.

2. Even if you did need to refill glycogen rapidly (which you don't), WMS has been proven slower than Dex/Malt.

Powdered carbs have 0 micronutrients, oats are king in my Post WO realm.

Milk, oats, whey, repeat.

Having said that, if I try Oats for my first thing in the morning HIIT, I WILL puke. So, I do 1 cup milk, 1 whey and 1 scoop of WMS just to get the carbs in me to fuel my workout without feeling so bloated and full I have to wait an hour to work out or risk vomiting.

Also, my pre WO meals are always spot on and timed perfectly (I eat and it takes me just about an hour to get to the gym), but I was using WMS (only 15G) just before my WO w my creatine, Eaa/Bcaa and white flood because I bought into the idea of it pulling those nutrients through quicker and more effectively.

I now will just go with a small piece of fruit boost just prior to my WO w my supps. and I will probably go with a water/whey/banana for my early AM cardio.

my two cents.

I'm also a fan of the milk, oats, whey, repeat method for pwo. I also throw in a banana. If you don't mind sharing, what proportions do you use?