Christians, how do you deal with the fact that you don't have original manuscripts of

[AKR]

We can argue all day about whether or not various translations are accurate, or whether manuscripts match up with other manuscripts, but at the end of the day, you still do not have the original manuscripts of the Bible, and therefore, do not know what the original said. How do you follow a religion with a god who's supposedly omnipotent and wants everyone to know his message, but he has not preserved the original manuscripts of the Bible?

[_TG_]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090206/...s_cyprus_bible

Quote:
The manuscript was found in a police raid on suspected antiquity smugglers. Turkish Cypriot police testified in a court hearing they believe the manuscript could be about 2,000 years old.
hmm interesting

Quote:
"I'd suspect that it is most likely to be less than 1,000 years old," leading expert Peter Williams, Warden of Tyndale House, University of Cambridge told Reuters.
damn experts lol.

Quote:
Authorities in northern Cyprus believe they have found an ancient version of the Bible written in Syriac, a dialect of the native language of Jesus.
wut?

[Lager1]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090206/...s_cyprus_bible

Quote:
The manuscript was found in a police raid on suspected antiquity smugglers. Turkish Cypriot police testified in a court hearing they believe the manuscript could be about 2,000 years old.
hmm interesting

Quote:
"I'd suspect that it is most likely to be less than 1,000 years old," leading expert Peter Williams, Warden of Tyndale House, University of Cambridge told Reuters.
damn experts lol.

Quote:
Authorities in northern Cyprus believe they have found an ancient version of the Bible written in Syriac, a dialect of the native language of Jesus.
wut?

Ok so Turkish POLICE believe it to be 2000 years old.

But the leading expert suspects it is less than 1000.



Who is more credible?

[_TG_]

Ok so Turkish POLICE believe it to be 2000 years old.

But the leading expert suspects it is less than 1000.



Who is more credible?

leading expert suspects of course. I was kiddin', but it's funny how the police want to be delusional. lol

[SilverSpork]

I've heard this is true concerning the Bible, how have they proven the originality of other holy books?

[sugicalmike]

Do people know exactly where the meat making their McD's quarter-pounder came from?

No, but they eat them anyways because it tastes good and suits their purpose.




Jesus is McDonalds.

[mangiventofly]

once again AKR, the answer is faith. nothing else. sorry to disappoint you. the same God that did not provide original manuscripts (i believe) still provides His Word and His guidance today through the bibles that we do have, prayer, and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. now that i've answered your question, feel free to make fun of me and accuse me of various things like you ususally do. not trying to be a jerk, its just that i know you by now and that is what usually happens. fire away.

[AKR]

once again AKR, the answer is faith. nothing else. sorry to disappoint you.

This is no disappointment; it's the exact answer I expected. I just don't understand how someone can say, "um, yeah, we don't really know if the Bible is true, but we think it's totally cool that people will be punished and burn in hell for all of eternity for not following something that doesn't have a reasonable amount of evidence.

the same God that did not provide original manuscripts (i believe) still provides His Word and His guidance today through the bibles that we do have, prayer, and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

That makes no sense. You just admitted that you have no proof of the accuracy of any copy of the Bible, and then, you turned around and said that you do have accuracy in the Bible. Prayer? You mean talking to someone who never actually talks to you? Conviction of the Holy Spirit? What is that exactly? When you attribute random happenings to a god you have no proof of?

The whole problem I have lies with the fact that there is no proof of your religion, and yet, people like you think it's perfectly fine that your religion says non-believers will be punished and you some how think that's justified. What's up with that?

now that i've answered your question, feel free to make fun of me and accuse me of various things like you ususally do. not trying to be a jerk, its just that i know you by now and that is what usually happens. fire away.

Whatever you say, chief.

[mangiventofly]

That makes no sense. You just admitted that you have no proof of the accuracy of any copy of the Bible, and then, you turned around and said that you do have accuracy in the Bible. Prayer? You mean talking to someone who never actually talks to you? Conviction of the Holy Spirit? What is that exactly? When you attribute random happenings to a god you have no proof of?

The whole problem I have lies with the fact that there is no proof of your religion, and yet, people like you think it's perfectly fine that your religion says non-believers will be punished and you some how think that's justified. What's up with that?

first of all, i did not claim any proof that the bibles we do have are 100% accurate. in fact i said nothing at all about how accurate today's bibles are (at least in this thread, and maybe never). i'm saying that i believe that God would not give me a bible that is a misrepresentation of His revealed will.

second, come on man, you know enough about this stuff that you don't have to ask questions about the Holy Spirit. or are you writing all this for someone else's benefit (or detriment)? if you honestly wanna know, i will explain it as best i can, but i kinda think, due to all our past convos about Christianity, that you are playing dumb. i will apologize if i'm wrong.

lastly, why do you care if i believe that non-Christians will be punished? if you don't and won't believe it, why does it matter to you? its no sweat off your back. i didn't approach you and say you were gonna burn in hell. i just answered a question. how am i supposed to know if you're gonna burn in hell. i'm not God. God has not convicted you yet, and neither have i for that matter. we all get judged in the end. and dude, if i made certain choices differently in my life, i'd be burning right along with the others. God applies justice equally. nobody is exempt. i think it sucks that God will send some to hell. but that don't make it untrue. the truth is not contingent on anything but God. i don't have to like it. i read my bible, and that's what i get out of it. no one and no thing has ever given me reason to doubt.

[BigBen85]

you really have a hard-on for christianity dont you? I mean seriously, how many f*ckin threads are you going to make trying to debunk/disprove christianity? We f*ckin got it already, you hate christianity, you've really beat this to death.

[AKR]

first of all, i did not claim any proof that the bibles we do have are 100% accurate. in fact i said nothing at all about how accurate today's bibles are (at least in this thread, and maybe never).
i'm saying that i believe that God would not give me a bible that is a misrepresentation of His revealed will.

The way you stated it made it sound as if you were saying "god didn't provide the originals, but he still provided accurate copies in the Bibles we have."

second, come on man, you know enough about this stuff that you don't have to ask questions about the Holy Spirit. or are you writing all this for someone else's benefit (or detriment)? if you honestly wanna know, i will explain it as best i can, but i kinda think, due to all our past convos about Christianity, that you are playing dumb. i will apologize if i'm wrong.

I'm not playing dumb; it was more of a rhetorical question that I answered myself. All of this "conviction" stuff is a matter of people filtering out any unanswered prayers and "signs," and cherry picking things in their life to make them feel like something spiritual is going on. And yet, they admit that they still have to believe through faith.

lastly, why do you care if i believe that non-Christians will be punished? if you don't and won't believe it, why does it matter to you? its no sweat off your back. i didn't approach you and say you were gonna burn in hell. i just answered a question. how am i supposed to know if you're gonna burn in hell.

Why do I care? Because I think it's seriously flawed and arrogant, and I like to critique flawed, arrogant ideas. YOU might not go around telling people they're going to hell, but other people do. They also push their religion on others, not only directly but through politics. They raise children to believe that they're going to hell if they can't be convinced of their religion or don't desire to pretend it's real. They want to manipulate the world around them according to a belief they (eventually) admit there is not enough proof to genuinely cause people to believe. Why is it that every time I start one of these threads I either get psycho analyzed, or I get asked to justify my interest in debating/discussion theological topics. Enough. I will not reply to anymore of these questions in this thread. You can start your own if you and others are so absolutely fascinated by me.

i'm not God. God has not convicted you yet, and neither have i for that matter. we all get judged in the end. and dude, if i made certain choices differently in my life, i'd be burning right along with the others. God applies justice equally. nobody is exempt. i think it sucks that God will send some to hell. but that don't make it untrue. the truth is not contingent on anything but God. i don't have to like it.
i read my bible, and that's what i get out of it.

You're right; you don't have to like it, but it certainly should make sense. I don't know how you can claim that this is a loving, fair god when he doesn't give people equal amounts of reasons to believe. People in distant lands through out time have never heard of your god or simply haven't heard enough to be convinced or to find any reason to continue listening. Even people like me who grew up with Christianity and now know more than most Christians still find no reason to believe and many reasons to not believe. Many of us have spent years genuinely trying to make sense of Christianity.

I don't have to like the truth either, and trust me, it's not always easy living in a world where you think that you will never see anyone again once they die; where people suffer their entire lives for absolutely no reason and nothing will ever make things right; where killers and rapist destroy lives with reckless abandonment, laughing at their unsolved crimes; where everything I've worked for and worked to become fades away after my death and eventually dissipates into the silent expanse of the universe.

Reality is a cold, hard beast, and I think the perspective I have is much harder to choke down then the one you hold onto. Please remember that.

This isn't about what want to believe - this is about what makes sense to me, and I see a bold contradiction between the idea of a loving god and one that punishes people for any length of time and/or is angry with them for not choosing to play the faith game.

no one and no thing has ever given me reason to doubt.

Nothing has given you enough reason to really believe, either, which is why you have to pretend you believe (I.E. have faith).

[mangiventofly]

They raise children to believe that they're going to hell if they can't be convinced of their religion or don't desire to pretend it's real. They want to manipulate the world around them according to a belief....

You're right; you don't have to like it, but it certainly should make sense.

I don't have to like the truth either, and trust me, it's not always easy living in a world where you think that you will never see anyone again once they die; where people suffer their entire lives for absolutely no reason and nothing will ever make things right; where killers and rapist destroy lives with reckless abandonment, laughing at their unsolved crimes; where everything I've worked for and worked to become fades away after my death and eventually dissipates into the silent expanse of the universe.

Reality is a cold, hard beast, and I think the perspective I have is much harder to choke down then the one you hold onto. Please remember that.

This isn't about what want to believe - this is about what makes sense to me, and I see a bold contradiction between the idea of a loving god and one that punishes people for any length of time and/or is angry with them for not choosing to play the faith game.

i have 3 children. 2 girls and a boy. my son is only 5 months old, but my daughters are old enough to start understanding the life lessons my wife and i are teaching them. i don't know what to say about this. i guess it comes from love. you said in the above quotes, how hard it is to believe that nothing awaits you when you die. as a part of my faith i must believe that at a critical moment(s) in your life, someone failed to reach you. someone let you down. please, AKR, understand that these comments are a reflection of respect for you and a love for you as an unsaved person that is given to me from above. i have no logical reason to care about you at all, but i do. the love i have for you is as a child of the same Father. to me, you are a beautiful and unique creation of God. one that should not be wasted on hell. my beliefs are based on these things. love. but not ONLY these things. like in the other thread, justice MUST exist. see if you follow me here. real peace is not just the absence of war, but the presence of justice. we are at war. with ourselves and the world around us. with satan and his followers. as a Christian i am called, because of love, to witness and minister to the unsaved, to prevent casualties in this war. this is why i argue with you. because i have hope that you can be reached. this is why i raise my children the way i do. God willing, i WILL NOT allow my children to be casualties. i will bleed and die as an example if necessary, so that they can see God's grace. i cannot MAKE them choose God, but i will not fail them by not showing them the way. i will not fail YOU. these convos with me may be doing no good. i don't know. but they might. i have HOPE that they are. i know that the perspective you have is difficult to endure. i was not always a christian. i did not become a believer until my early twenties. i feel for you. i wish you would understand that it isn't true. that something far greater could be waiting for you. i know you don't understand it. i don't fully understand it myself. but that doesn't make it false. that just makes it a mystery to be unravelled. a journey to be undertaken. there are many things in this life that don't make sense. things you probably don't even realize or haven't thought of yet. things that may affect you every day. the human mind is not the end all be all. we are fallible. you will NEVER know everything there is to know. knowledge cannot save you. in the end your knowledge has zero benefit for you. intellectualism is not the answer.

[MISTERDUDE]

THE BIBLE IS TRUE! IT HAS BEEN PROVEN TRUE!!!!!! IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT STUFF HAPPENED thousands of years ago like the Assyrians attacking Israel and such


But yes, I find it highly ironic that so many protestants tout their "proven" Bible and its teachings (and by that I mean their casual interpretation of its teachings) and then Piss on everyone else's beliefs.

[Mr Beer]

'to me, you are a beautiful and unique creation of God. one that should not be wasted on hell.'

Yeah, you'd kind of think a loving God would come to the same conclusion, wouldn't you?

[Wussy]

i have 3 children. 2 girls and a boy. my son is only 5 months old, but my daughters are old enough to start understanding the life lessons my wife and i are teaching them. i don't know what to say about this. i guess it comes from love. you said in the above quotes, how hard it is to believe that nothing awaits you when you die. as a part of my faith i must believe that at a critical moment(s) in your life, someone failed to reach you. someone let you down. please, AKR, understand that these comments are a reflection of respect for you and a love for you as an unsaved person that is given to me from above. i have no logical reason to care about you at all, but i do. the love i have for you is as a child of the same Father. to me, you are a beautiful and unique creation of God. one that should not be wasted on hell. my beliefs are based on these things. love. but not ONLY these things. like in the other thread, justice MUST exist. see if you follow me here. real peace is not just the absence of war, but the presence of justice. we are at war. with ourselves and the world around us. with satan and his followers. as a Christian i am called, because of love, to witness and minister to the unsaved, to prevent casualties in this war. this is why i argue with you. because i have hope that you can be reached. this is why i raise my children the way i do. God willing, i WILL NOT allow my children to be casualties. i will bleed and die as an example if necessary, so that they can see God's grace. i cannot MAKE them choose God, but i will not fail them by not showing them the way. i will not fail YOU. these convos with me may be doing no good. i don't know. but they might. i have HOPE that they are. i know that the perspective you have is difficult to endure. i was not always a christian. i did not become a believer until my early twenties. i feel for you. i wish you would understand that it isn't true. that something far greater could be waiting for you. i know you don't understand it. i don't fully understand it myself. but that doesn't make it false. that just makes it a mystery to be unravelled. a journey to be undertaken. there are many things in this life that don't make sense. things you probably don't even realize or haven't thought of yet. things that may affect you every day. the human mind is not the end all be all. we are fallible. you will NEVER know everything there is to know. knowledge cannot save you. in the end your knowledge has zero benefit for you. intellectualism is not the answer.

Religion always amuzes me. I think someone failed YOU. They taught you to confirm to their beliefs and never taught you to think for yourself. You should question everything and believe nothing that doesn't make sense to your own reason.

As much as you hope your kids choose God I hope mine won't. All it shows is their failure to mature and accept the world as it is. It will show they have a closed or weak mind.

You will tell your kids of Jesus and tell them that it is true. I'll tell mine of him and believes of others and let them know that no one knows and to think for themselves.

You have been held back you can't see the world for what it is. You have blinders on.

Their is nothing in the bible that is true. Hell and Heaven are no more likely to be real than leprechauns and fierys. This isn't something I will teach my kids. I just hope to teach them to be able to figure that out themselves. There is no way for you to do that. Without someone telling them about it or tellign them it is true. No one would logically decide that the universe might have been created by a god and that we are all sinners and there is a heaven and hell etc etc etc. It's just not possible.

You can spend your how life believing in Jesus and promoting closed minded faith to your children. But accept it or not you live in the same realty as myself or AKR.

Belief in justice doesn't not make it so. You're reality is sadder than AKR's for you not only live in the same world as he does, but you also will waste your time in that world thinking you live in another.

[AKR]

i have 3 children. 2 girls and a boy. my son is only 5 months old, but my daughters are old enough to start understanding the life lessons my wife and i are teaching them. i don't know what to say about this. i guess it comes from love. you said in the above quotes, how hard it is to believe that nothing awaits you when you die. as a part of my faith i must believe that at a critical moment(s) in your life, someone failed to reach you. someone let you down.

Everyone who is or has been a Christian has failed me in the sense that they could never answer the big questions. What drove me a way was a lack of rational explanations; a lack of evidence. I hold no deep, dark secret past - no heart breaking story of how some Christian mistreated me. I just grew up and the simple "have faith" and "wait and see when you're dead" answers did nothing for me. As my brain developed further and my thirst for knowledge, even the more detailed answers did not satisfy me.

Also, I don't want you to come away from this thinking I'm a miserable person. When you talk to me, you see me focusing on the atrocities and the harshness of reality, but that's just my "arguing against theism" mode. I'm generally light hearted and quite excited about life, but that doesn't change the fact that this other side exists and is not my ideal reality.

please, AKR, understand that these comments are a reflection of respect for you and a love for you as an unsaved person that is given to me from above. i have no logical reason to care about you at all, but i do. the love i have for you is as a child of the same Father. to me, you are a beautiful and unique creation of God. one that should not be wasted on hell. my beliefs are based on these things. love. but not ONLY these things. like in the other thread, justice MUST exist. see if you follow me here. real peace is not just the absence of war, but the presence of justice. we are at war. with ourselves and the world around us. with satan and his followers. as a Christian i am called, because of love, to witness and minister to the unsaved, to prevent casualties in this war. this is why i argue with you. because i have hope that you can be reached. this is why i raise my children the way i do. God willing, i WILL NOT allow my children to be casualties. i will bleed and die as an example if necessary, so that they can see God's grace. i cannot MAKE them choose God, but i will not fail them by not showing them the way. i will not fail YOU. these convos with me may be doing no good. i don't know. but they might. i have HOPE that they are. i know that the perspective you have is difficult to endure. i was not always a christian. i did not become a believer until my early twenties. i feel for you. i wish you would understand that it isn't true. that something far greater could be waiting for you. i know you don't understand it. i don't fully understand it myself. but that doesn't make it false. that just makes it a mystery to be unravelled. a journey to be undertaken. there are many things in this life that don't make sense. things you probably don't even realize or haven't thought of yet. things that may affect you every day.

I appreciate your genuine concern, and as much as I don't like a lot of Christians, this attitude of caring is the only think that has any hope of saving your religion. If you fail to convince me, don't feel bad. I've read everything from Joshua Mcdowell to C.S. Lewis; I've listened to countless sermons; I've read through the Bible just as much; I've debated everyone from pastors to scientists and none of them have ever made me think, "well, maybe Christianity is real." But hey, I respect your reasons for doing so and I actually think that's the reason Christians should be in this forum if they're really Christians. Either way, hopefully we can have interesting conversations.

the human mind is not the end all be all. we are fallible. you will NEVER know everything there is to know. knowledge cannot save you. in the end your knowledge has zero benefit for you. intellectualism is not the answer.

Intellectualism is the only answer I can accept. Emotionally clouded thinking has never been acceptable for me and no offense, but I didn't hear anything but emotion in this whole post. You stated justice must exist, but offered no reason why or proof of it's existence.



Getting back to the focus...I have yet to understand how the idea of a loving god and one who condemns others for a lack of faith are compatible ideas.

[ONtop888]

i have 3 children. 2 girls and a boy. my son is only 5 months old, but my daughters are old enough to start understanding the life lessons my wife and i are teaching them. i don't know what to say about this. i guess it comes from love. you said in the above quotes, how hard it is to believe that nothing awaits you when you die. as a part of my faith i must believe that at a critical moment(s) in your life, someone failed to reach you. someone let you down. please, AKR, understand that these comments are a reflection of respect for you and a love for you as an unsaved person that is given to me from above. i have no logical reason to care about you at all, but i do. the love i have for you is as a child of the same Father. to me, you are a beautiful and unique creation of God. one that should not be wasted on hell. my beliefs are based on these things. love. but not ONLY these things. like in the other thread, justice MUST exist. see if you follow me here. real peace is not just the absence of war, but the presence of justice. we are at war. with ourselves and the world around us. with satan and his followers. as a Christian i am called, because of love, to witness and minister to the unsaved, to prevent casualties in this war. this is why i argue with you. because i have hope that you can be reached. this is why i raise my children the way i do. God willing, i WILL NOT allow my children to be casualties. i will bleed and die as an example if necessary, so that they can see God's grace. i cannot MAKE them choose God, but i will not fail them by not showing them the way. i will not fail YOU. these convos with me may be doing no good. i don't know. but they might. i have HOPE that they are. i know that the perspective you have is difficult to endure. i was not always a christian. i did not become a believer until my early twenties. i feel for you. i wish you would understand that it isn't true. that something far greater could be waiting for you. i know you don't understand it. i don't fully understand it myself. but that doesn't make it false. that just makes it a mystery to be unravelled. a journey to be undertaken. there are many things in this life that don't make sense. things you probably don't even realize or haven't thought of yet. things that may affect you every day. the human mind is not the end all be all. we are fallible. you will NEVER know everything there is to know. knowledge cannot save you. in the end your knowledge has zero benefit for you. intellectualism is not the answer.

That's a great REAL post, well put bro. repps on recharge.

[Nagalfar]

Hummm I wonder what those thar dead sea scrolls are all about lol...

ummm lets see, yep there the New Testament (original translations) in both Hebrew AND GREEK .. ALL TWENTY TWO BOOKS.

lol yet another AKR expert failure.. watching someone own himself.. priceless.

/failed

[jf1]

Hummm I wonder what those thar dead sea scrolls are all about lol...

ummm lets see, yep there the New Testament (original translations) in both Hebrew AND GREEK .. ALL TWENTY TWO BOOKS.

lol yet another AKR expert failure.. watching someone own himself.. priceless.

/failed

LOL @ the dead sea scrolls being 'the word of god'!
another old book written by men claiming to speak for god...
failure all around!

[Nagalfar]

LOL @ the dead sea scrolls being 'the word of god'!
another old book written by men claiming to speak for god...
failure all around!

That is not what to OP asked for is it.. lmao..

Jack, for claiming to know so much, why would you spend so much time and effort to to disprove something you claim is not there???..

I dont know what you call it, but I bet its clinical name is a long one.

[ONtop888]

We can argue all day about whether or not various translations are accurate, or whether manuscripts match up with other manuscripts, but at the end of the day, you still do not have the original manuscripts of the Bible, and therefore, do not know what the original said. How do you follow a religion with a god who's supposedly omnipotent and wants everyone to know his message, but he has not preserved the original manuscripts of the Bible?

I don't understand your premise, or perhaps an an atheist you don't understand our beliefs as Christians? At the end of the day, God's message is intact just ashe intended. His love and message of salvation is still readily accessible when one reads the Bible. We don't have the original copy of many ancient classics i.e. The Illiad or Augustine's City of God, but the message and/or work is preserved. Being omnipotent and omniscient, I think questioning why He didn't choose to maintain the original manuscripts, a non-issue for Christians, is like an 8 year old grasping quantum physics. Maybe He foresaw us becoming idolatrous with such an item and people would start worshipping the book instead of Him, as many of His followers have done through out history.

[AKR]

Hummm I wonder what those thar dead sea scrolls are all about lol...

ummm lets see, yep there the New Testament (original translations) in both Hebrew AND GREEK .. ALL TWENTY TWO BOOKS.

lol yet another AKR expert failure.. watching someone own himself.. priceless.

/failed

Hey, are the Dead Sea scrolls the originals, and do they contain all the works found in the Bible?

Oh, that's right; the scrolls don't even contain anything from the New Testament. Not only are they not the original manuscripts of the Old Testament, but they do not contain the entire Old Testament and contain NONE of the New Testament. lullz.

[user23960508710783]

We can argue all day about whether or not various translations are accurate, or whether manuscripts match up with other manuscripts, but at the end of the day, you still do not have the original manuscripts of the Bible, and therefore, do not know what the original said. How do you follow a religion with a god who's supposedly omnipotent and wants everyone to know his message, but he has not preserved the original manuscripts of the Bible?

I am a Christian (a lousy, hypocritical one, but still).

The problem you state is a valid concern. However, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Now, granted that I am a raging, retarded, moronic idiot who knows very little about very many things, but I've been around people who are less stupid than I am. They tell me not to worry too much about it, on the grounds that we don't even follow the majority of the stuff regarding what the Bible commands of us anyway.

Basically, what difference does it make if I don't follow a rule that might be the wrong one? Even if I had the right one, I'm still too stupid and lazy and morally wicked to do anything about it. And since my shortcomings are likely here to stay, it makes no sense for me to whine about possibly not having the right tools for a job I am not cut out for in the first place.

[Nagalfar]

Hey, are the Dead Sea scrolls the originals, and do they contain all the works found in the Bible?

Oh, that's right; the scrolls don't even contain anything from the New Testament. Not only are they not the original manuscripts of the Old Testament, but they do not contain the entire Old Testament and contain NONE of the New Testament. lullz.

You proclaim to KNOW.. and you ask if the dead sea scrolls are optionals? priceless...

You clearly have no idea what your are even talking about, you dont know about either do you? lol. lol.. you win, lol..

[ONtop888]

Hey, are the Dead Sea scrolls the originals, and do they contain all the works found in the Bible?

Oh, that's right; the scrolls don't even contain anything from the New Testament. Not only are they not the original manuscripts of the Old Testament, but they do not contain the entire Old Testament and contain NONE of the New Testament. lullz.

They do contain some of the deutero-cannonical books though

[AKR]

I don't understand your premise, or perhaps an an atheist you don't understand our beliefs as Christians? At the end of the day, God's message is intact just ashe intended. His love and message of salvation is still readily accessible when one reads the Bible. We don't have the original copy of many ancient classics i.e. The Illiad or Augustine's City of God, but the message and/or work is preserved.

This is not something you can know or can prove. How do you prove anything is preserved when you do not have the original works to compare your copies to? This makes no sense.

Being omnipotent and omniscient, I think questioning why He didn't choose to maintain the original manuscripts, a non-issue for Christians, is like an 8 year old grasping quantum physics.

So, basically you're copping out with the old "he's strong and smart, so don't question it" routine. What you don't realize is that you have to prove he's strong and smart before you can claim that he is. If you don't even know the characteristics of your god because you don't have the original works of the Bible, then how do you have anything to stand on? You've made your case before you've even built it. In order to build your case, you must look at things rationally instead of just throw your arms up in the air and say, "whatever, I'm going to assume he's so powerful and smart that he doesn't have to make any sense."

Maybe He foresaw us becoming idolatrous with such an item and people would start worshipping the book instead of Him, as many of His followers have done through out history.

Wait, so he allowed his word to be corrupted so people wouldn't worship it? I seriously do not get this argument. Why would people worship a book because it's actually kept intact and is god incapable of passing on his message in a better fashion? I mean, you have a bunch of illiterate scribes with who-knows-what kind of motives for copying or changing the Bible; you have a language barrier; you have the fact that through out history, most people couldn't even read, so they're relying on other people to tell them the truth about god's word, and then you have the fact that not everyone has even had access to the Bible and many STILL don't.

[AKR]

They do contain some of the deutero-cannonical books though

Ok?

You proclaim to KNOW.. and you ask if the dead sea scrolls are optionals? priceless...

You clearly have no idea what your are even talking about, you dont know about either do you? lol. lol.. you win, lol..

Optionals? This post maketh no sense.

I am a Christian (a lousy, hypocritical one, but still).

The problem you state is a valid concern. However, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Now, granted that I am a raging, retarded, moronic idiot who knows very little about very many things, but I've been around people who are less stupid than I am. They tell me not to worry too much about it, on the grounds that we don't even follow the majority of the stuff regarding what the Bible commands of us anyway.

Basically, what difference does it make if I don't follow a rule that might be the wrong one? Even if I had the right one, I'm still too stupid and lazy and morally wicked to do anything about it. And since my shortcomings are likely here to stay, it makes no sense for me to whine about possibly not having the right tools for a job I am not cut out for in the first place.

I can't recall if you're actually a Christian or just playing one.

[Thy_Kingdom]

DIE HEATHEN SCUM

[ONtop888]

This is not something you can know or can prove. How do you prove anything is preserved when you do not have the original works to compare your copies to? This makes no sense.


**** you can know that's preserved by mention of the very books we have now, better yet, specific Biblical quotes from 1st century church fathers, 2nd century...and so on it goes........PRESERVED. That does make sense.

So, basically you're copping out with the old "he's strong and smart, so don't question it" routine. What you don't realize is that you have to prove he's strong and smart before you can claim that he is. If you don't even know the characteristics of your god because you don't have the original works of the Bible, then how do you have anything to stand on? You've made your case before you've even built it. In order to build your case, you must look at things rationally instead of just throw your arms up in the air and say, "whatever, I'm going to assume he's so powerful and smart that he doesn't have to make any sense."

** you were the one using the hypothetical of God being omnipotent, so I expounded upon it.

Wait, so he allowed his word to be corrupted so people wouldn't worship it? I seriously do not get this argument. Why would people worship a book because it's actually kept intact and is god incapable of passing on his message in a better fashion? I mean, you have a bunch of illiterate scribes with who-knows-what kind of motives for copying or changing the Bible; you have a language barrier; you have the fact that through out history, most people couldn't even read, so they're relying on other people to tell them the truth about god's word, and then you have the fact that not everyone has even had access to the Bible and many STILL don't.

**I've already stated that God has preserved His word and the message has not been corrupted, so I don't know what your talknig about. Why would be people worship a book.....I don't know, why did the Jews worship a Golden Calf?

**illiterate scribes changing the Bible...lol/wut? Can you source this?

**the Bible was preserved in the Latin and that copy is orthodox, preserved. It can be attested to by viewing the allthe passages from the Church Father's writings to our the passages in the modern Bible.

***those who have not had access to the Bible will not be judged by the same measure as those that did, God is infact merciful. God's mission for us, as Christians, was to spread His word...the Great Commission. The fault for some not having access to God's word, rests on us, npot God.

[momofo]

DIE HEATHEN SCUM

LOL--great argument. Very Christian of you.