Boeing - search for shareholder value run amok

[PlanoLifter]

Boeing is having more and more quality control issues these days. Add this to their underhanded approach to save $1m per aircraft sold to Southwest by incorporating MCAS in the 737 MAX without telling pilots about it, as well as a myriad of other issues.

This all started when beancounters took over from the real engineering management after the McDonnell Douglas merger in the late 1990s

I understand the need for shareholder value and returns in a company, but at what point is enough is enough?


For your viewing pleasure:

[Mark1T]

Plano, yes, this is much more serious than we even know. If the bolts were loose on the door that blew off, what else could possibly be overlooked by inspectors?

Your questions are very valid. When shareholder value trumps safety, the probability for a catastrophic event or events is increased - a lot. Then, what happens to shareholder value after an accident? It does not make sense to trade safety for temporary shareholder value for any business.

Make the planes safe and shareholder value will rise. Pretty simple.

[IronCharles]

I had a wing seat on a 737 one day, and as I looked out during the flight, could clearly see several rivets missing from the wing.

I don't think the inspection/maintenance schedules are anywhere near as thorough or efficient as they would have you believe.

[PlanoLifter]

I had a wing seat on a 737 one day, and as I looked out during the flight, could clearly see several rivets missing from the wing.

I don't think the inspection/maintenance schedules are anywhere near as thorough or efficient as they would have you believe.

Missing rivets are not necessarily an issue depending on how many are missing and where they're missing from. These usually get replaced at the next scheduled maintenance check. Airliner wings can still be effective despite loose panels even. I understand this can be disconcerting for passengers however.

Airliners have what we call a MEL (minimum equipment list). If missing or inop parts fall into this list the aircraft can still be dispatched for passenger service.

https://www.nata.aero/assets/Site_18...ineqlistbp.pdf

The Minimum Equipment List (MEL) is a document and method aircraft operators use to obtain
relief from Federal Aviation Regulations requiring that all equipment installed on the aircraft be
operative at the time of flight. It is aircraft-specific and spells out which pieces of equipment
may be allowed to be inoperable along with any procedures that are required for an aircraft to
operate under specific conditions while maintaining airworthiness.

The MEL is developed from the Master Minimum Equipment List (MMEL), which is produced
by the aircraft manufacturer and approved during certification of the airplane. The MMEL is
used by individual operators to develop their MEL and takes into consideration an operator’s
more particular equipment, instrument and operational conditions. Operator MELs for
administrative control may include items not contained in the MMEL; however, the Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA) must approve the administrative control items. An operator’s
MEL may differ in format from the MMEL, but cannot be less restrictive than the MMEL. When
the individual operator’s MEL is approved and authorized, it then becomes a Supplemental
Type Certificate (STC), and permits operation of the aircraft with inoperative equipment.

...

[Karl_Hungus]

Plano -- I notice your sig is "747 driver". Are you a pilot?

I am certainly no expert in finance, but my layman's guess is that having doors fall off mid-flight or having a flight end in a fireball via catastrophic mechanical failure will probably decrease share price a lot more than skimping on maintenance will raise it.

[PlanoLifter]

Plano -- I notice your sig is "747 driver". Are you a pilot?

I am certainly no expert in finance, but my layman's guess is that having doors fall off mid-flight or having a flight end in a fireball via catastrophic mechanical failure will probably decrease share price a lot more than skimping on maintenance will raise it.

Yep, I fly 747s (currently, 777/767 previously) for a living.

Agreed about the door falling off. Wonder how much Boeing is going to have to compensate UA and AS for this fiasco.

[OldFartTom]

I had a wing seat on a 737 one day, and as I looked out during the flight, could clearly see several rivets missing from the wing.

I don't think the inspection/maintenance schedules are anywhere near as thorough or efficient as they would have you believe.

I've been next to a wing and when doing checks they went full flap and back. This was some years ago on a little bae 146, and I looked up into the wing and could see an earth strap disconnected next to some sort of broken wire. Just that moment a stewardess was walking past (not sure why they'd usually be sitting down at that point) and I mentioned it, after the climb-out she walked back down the plane and when she went past me she said she'd reported it right away but the captain already knew about it and it was on the list for next maintenance it wasn't a problem. I think stuff isn't always serious.

Although I hope it's taken more seriously than my car which has a slowly growing list of stuff that no longer works but is never going to be repaired. If my car had a loose door, I'd want to tighten that up *before* the next service!

At least it was only 16,000 foot not 36,000 foot. That was a very good thing. Although I wouldn't want super fast decompression to 16,000, that altitude is absolutely no problem, that really shouldn't cause any issues beyond distress for the nervous. Here's a really really really old picture of just a little short of 16,000 foot, way back from the early 1990s (when I was young and handsome ) https://imgur.com/gallery/EqXsUik. Nobody died, no drama, you can still do hard physical exercise (with increased effort!) so sitting on an airline seat isn't a problem, they should've completed the flight - what a bunch of wimps

[FingerFood]

I heard the door was modified by the airline after delivery to allow the addition of more seats. It was then plugged with a new door.

This not true?

If it is true, why are the airlines making modifications to planes after delivery and could Boeing not sue them for this?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbs...ems-door-plug/

[mtpockets]

Boeing is having more and more quality control issues these days. Add this to their underhanded approach to save $1m per aircraft sold to Southwest by incorporating MCAS in the 737 MAX without telling pilots about it, as well as a myriad of other issues.

This all started when beancounters took over from the real engineering management after the McDonnell Douglas merger in the late 1990s

I understand the need for shareholder value and returns in a company, but at what point is enough is enough?


For your viewing pleasure:

Interesting thread Plano... Loved the cartoon lol





There's a lot going on up there at any given time....




I hope this pic doesn't give the flat earthers a boner.




Here's a link if anyone hasn't heard of flight Radar

https://www.flightradar24.com/41.20,-91.06/5

[PlanoLifter]

I heard the door was modified by the airline after delivery to allow the addition of more seats. It was then plugged with a new door.

This not true?

If it is true, why are the airlines making modifications to planes after delivery and could Boeing not sue them for this?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbs...ems-door-plug/

This is not true in the case of the door and the article you linked makes no mention of airlines removing the door immediately after delivery. The door will be opened during maintenance checks to check for corrosion but this will be years after delivery.

When an airliner is delivered to an airline all the seats and interior cabin components are in place. This is done (in the case of the MAX 9) in the Boeing factory in Renton.

Airlines can, and do, make cabin/seating changes after delivery but this is done years after initial delivery. An example would be replacing the seats, replacing the overhead bins, etc.

Airlines do make some modification after delivery, often to add WiFi. There was speculation that the company adding the WiFi system to the ill-fated AS a/c tampered with the door but this has been ruled out.

Here are pictures of a WiFi antenna system being added to an a/c:

[PlanoLifter]

Interesting thread Plano... Loved the cartoon lol





There's a lot going on up there at any given time....




I hope this pic doesn't give the flat earthers a boner.




Here's a link if anyone hasn't heard of flight Radar

https://www.flightradar24.com/41.20,-91.06/5

I've heard that during the day there are 5000-6000 aircraft in the skies over North America at any one time. This does not include GA (General Aviation) aircraft operating VFR (Visual Flight Rules). The aircraft tracked by FR24 are, AFAIK, those operating under IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) which will include all airliners and most private jets.

FR24 is a great resource but it does filter out some aircraft. Examples would be military, Air Force 1 (at times), private aircraft where owners have requested it not be tracked (such as those owned by Elon Musk). A better resource for tracking those aircraft is https://www.adsbexchange.com/

Edit: I take part of my statement back. Any aircraft operating with and ADS-B transponder will usually be picked up by the tracking services whether operating VFR or IFR

[Karl_Hungus]

Yep, I fly 747s (currently, 777/767 previously) for a living.

Unrelated to the thread, but that sounds like a cool job. I am not in aviation, but find it interesting and follow a few channels hosted by pilots (e.g., mentour pilot, 74 Gear who also flies 747s, and a few others).

Here's a link if anyone hasn't heard of flight Radar

https://www.flightradar24.com/41.20,-91.06/5

Never saw that link before -- good one Pockets. Seeing just how many planes are in the air at any given time makes me hope that any industry-wide cost cutting measures don't also extend to the controllers.

[PlanoLifter]

Unrelated to the thread, but that sounds like a cool job. I am not in aviation, but find it interesting and follow a few channels hosted by pilots (e.g., mentour pilot, 74 Gear who also flies 747s, and a few others).




Never saw that link before -- good one Pockets. Seeing just how many planes are in the air at any given time makes me hope that any industry-wide cost cutting measures don't also extend to the controllers.

Kelsey from 74 Gear is a good guy. I had dinner with him once in Hong Kong a while back.

If you're interested in more 747 operations, Pilot Obet has a great channel:

https://www.youtube.com/@pilot_obet7815

[mtpockets]

I've heard that during the day there are 5000-6000 aircraft in the skies over North America at any one time. This does not include GA (General Aviation) aircraft operating VFR (Visual Flight Rules). The aircraft tracked by FR24 are, AFAIK, those operating under IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) which will include all airliners and most private jets.

FR24 is a great resource but it does filter out some aircraft. Examples would be military, Air Force 1 (at times), private aircraft where owners have requested it not be tracked (such as those owned by Elon Musk). A better resource for tracking those aircraft is https://www.adsbexchange.com/

Edit: I take part of my statement back. Any aircraft operating with and ADS-B transponder will usually be picked up by the tracking services whether operating VFR or IFR

Correct you are, I spent a career watching the air picture over North America while working for NORAD. What is displayed by Flight Radar 24 are transponder equipped Aircraft. There are more like you said that aren’t being displayed.

Unlike Flight Radar, NORAD had the ability to see all of them. Military Aircraft squawking different modes/codes as well as those without transponders because it employed a search radar that would detect anything. Even flocks of geese were picked up at times.

I have been out of the Controlling game for quite some time so things may have changed now.

[PlanoLifter]

FAA Opens investigation, invites Boeing to respond:

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/fi...01_737MAX9.pdf


The AS a/c had loose bolts on the other plug door that Boeing actually looked at:

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...ring-assembly/

[FingerFood]

They also have them for ships.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...ry:32.0/zoom:2

[FingerFood]

FAA Opens investigation, invites Boeing to respond:

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/fi...01_737MAX9.pdf


The AS a/c had loose bolts on the other plug door that Boeing actually looked at:

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...ring-assembly/

Thanks, it looks like Deutsche Bank may have been responsible for the rumor I heard. Probably trying to profit or dump their Boeing stock.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...or-2024-01-08/

[FingerFood]

https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/st...24322138018064

[eomrat]

When shareholder value trumps safety, the probability for a catastrophic event or events is increased - a lot. .

Almost to the point of certainty.

[Karl_Hungus]

Kelsey from 74 Gear is a good guy. I had dinner with him once in Hong Kong a while back.

If you're interested in more 747 operations, Pilot Obet has a great channel:

https://www.youtube.com/@pilot_obet7815

Yeah, I imagine that is a pretty small community -- thanks for the link -- Obet's videos are great!

[Mark1T]

This is the plane thread, so I am posting this here.

FAA’s diversity push includes focus on hiring people with ‘severe intellectual’ and ‘psychiatric’ disabilities
FAA says people with 'severe' disabilities are most underrepresented segment of federal workforce

As if we didn't need more to worry about all in the name of DEI

https://www.foxnews.com/us/faas-dive...c-disabilities

Almost to the point of certainty.

Even more certain. My hope is that they hire more transgenders.

[PlanoLifter]

This is the plane thread, so I am posting this here.

FAA’s diversity push includes focus on hiring people with ‘severe intellectual’ and ‘psychiatric’ disabilities
FAA says people with 'severe' disabilities are most underrepresented segment of federal workforce

As if we didn't need more to worry about all in the name of DEI

https://www.foxnews.com/us/faas-dive...c-disabilities



Even more certain. My hope is that they hire more transgenders.

The aviation industry certainly doesn't need employees with severe intellectual disabilities.

I occasionally fly with a transgender first officer, she to he, who is one of the best first officers I've flown with in terms of problem solving, handling issues, and the art of flying. I was a little skeptic of "him" at first but I have no issues with "him" now.

[Mark1T]

The aviation industry certainly doesn't need employees with severe intellectual disabilities.

I occasionally fly with a transgender first officer, she to he, who is one of the best first officers I've flown with in terms of problem solving, handling issues, and the art of flying. I was a little skeptic of "him" at first but I have no issues with "him" now.

Good to hear.

[mtpockets]

Nothing hotter than a chick in a flight suit.... I may be bias but I am right


Congrats to this young lady on her many accomplishments.

[Karl_Hungus]

The aviation industry certainly doesn't need employees with severe intellectual disabilities.

I occasionally fly with a transgender first officer, she to he, who is one of the best first officers I've flown with in terms of problem solving, handling issues, and the art of flying. I was a little skeptic of "him" at first but I have no issues with "him" now.

As long as people are being selected on the basis of talent and ability, then I am good with that. I do get nervous when airlines make proclamations about hiring X percent of new pilots from Y gender/racial/disability groups as it necessarily implies that ability is no longer the primary consideration. There are some industries where a certain amount of incompetence can be absorbed in the name of DEI (e.g., academia). Others, such as aviation and medicine do not have this luxury because people can die as a result. IMO, there should never be any DEI initiatives in either of these areas. Talent and ability should be the only criteria that matters regardless of whether that appears unfair or "inequitable".

[Mark1T]

Elon slams FAA over plans to hire people with 'severe' mental disabilities. Sure glad Elon isn't woke. I am ok with a few transgenders, but if they hire midgets, we gots a problem. Yes, I am an Anti-Midgitite.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/oth...3cedb866&ei=20

[OldFartTom]

Obviously Boeing has some PR issues at the moment, but it's worse than I first thought


"... ... [Ryanair] is one of Boeing's biggest customers for the 737 Max family, with more than 100 in service and due to have some 400 more by 2034.

Ryanair's chief executive Michael O'Leary ... .... ... in an interview with the BBC if he had complete confidence in Boeing's quality control processes after the incident which saw an unused door fall off, the Ryanair boss said "no".
"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67994140

[Mark1T]

Obviously Boeing has some PR issues at the moment, but it's worse than I first thought


"... ... [Ryanair] is one of Boeing's biggest customers for the 737 Max family, with more than 100 in service and due to have some 400 more by 2034.

Ryanair's chief executive Michael O'Leary ... .... ... in an interview with the BBC if he had complete confidence in Boeing's quality control processes after the incident which saw an unused door fall off, the Ryanair boss said "no".
"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67994140

Wow. This is not just bad press. It will be devastating for Boeing's future, its employees and shareholders.

[mtpockets]

[eomrat]

Almost to the point of certainty.

I got negged for this comment?