Most people should do maingaining/lean bulk phases, and only cut if obese?

[Animal2692]

Alright this may spark some controversy, but hear me out first. I'll use males as an example. I think they should alternate between maingaining and lean bulking phases depending on a bodyfat range of 12-20%. With maingaining, you eat at maintenance calories and with a 'lean' bulk, you eat at a 100-200 calorie surplus. If 12% bodyfat, lean bulk. Once 20% is reached, maingain to 12% (this also depends on how far you are from your genetic potential). If over 20%, cut. At around 12% bodyfat, it becomes way too slow to keep maingaining, so lean bulking would be the way to go again. Also, both 12% bodyfat and 20% body fat are healthy levels without performance being impacted. You can also monitor performance in the gym to see if maingaining is working. If you're progressing, you're building muscle. The main point of this post is to constantly be in an anabolic state.

From what I'm seeing, we have an epidemic of cutting and wanting to be lean and not enough muscle building. Many people want to get lean to the point that they don't have much to show once lean. I'm against cutting the majority of the time because it slows the rate of muscle growth considerably and pretty much stops it for those who have already built up a decent amount of muscle mass. Also, most people do it wrong and end up losing muscle mass which they then have to regain once they start bulking. So how much time did they really save for building muscle? They end up yoyoing an entire year's worth of progress that they could of made.

Maingaining on the other hand, is only about 100-200 calories shy of a slow bulk so it doesn't impact the rate of muscle growth anywhere near as much as cutting does. Now I know that maingaining while lean is a pipe dream, but doing it once reaching about 20% bodyfat from a slow bulking phase is perfectly feasible. You never have to worry about halting muscle growth with cutting phases. You could be gaining 3lbs of muscle in 3 months maingaining instead of nothing at all. You are not only burning up bodyfat stores to build muscle, but you are also bringing your bodyfat percentage down through having more lean tissue built.

Thoughts?

[EiFit91]

Alright this may spark some controversy, but hear me out first. I'll use males as an example. I think they should alternate between maingaining and lean bulking phases depending on a bodyfat range of 12-20%. With maingaining, you eat at maintenance calories and with a 'lean' bulk, you eat at a 100-200 calorie surplus. If 12% bodyfat, lean bulk. Once 20% is reached, maingain to 12%. If over 20%, cut. At around 12% bodyfat, it becomes way too slow to keep maingaining, so lean bulking would be the way to go again. Also, both 12% bodyfat and 20% body fat are healthy levels without performance being impacted. You can also monitor performance in the gym to see if maingaining is working. If you're progressing, you're building muscle. The main point of this post is to constantly be in an anabolic state.

From what I'm seeing, we have an epidemic of cutting and wanting to be lean and not enough muscle building. Many people want to get lean to the point that they don't have much to show once lean. I'm against cutting the majority of the time because it slows the rate of muscle growth considerably and pretty much stops it for those who have already built up a decent amount of muscle mass. Also, most people do it wrong and end up losing muscle mass which they then have to regain once they start bulking. So how much time did they really save for building muscle? They end up yoyoing an entire year's worth of progress that they could of made.

Maingaining on the other hand, is only about 100-200 calories shy of a slow bulk so it doesn't impact the rate of muscle growth anywhere near as much as cutting does. Now I know that maingaining while lean is a pipe dream, but doing it once reaching about 20% bodyfat from a slow bulking phase is perfectly feasible. You never have to worry about halting muscle growth with cutting phases. You could be gaining 3lbs of muscle in 3 months maingaining instead of nothing at all. You are not only burning up bodyfat stores to build muscle, but you are also bringing your bodyfat percentage down through having more lean tissue built.

Thoughts?

I’d love to see the natty that «maingained» his way from 20% to 12% without any cutting...

This stuff sounds great in theory but reality is different.

Also where is the cutting epidemic? Everywhere I go people are fat

[AdamWW]

Alright this may spark some controversy, but hear me out first. I'll use males as an example. I think they should alternate between maingaining and lean bulking phases depending on a bodyfat range of 12-20%. With maingaining, you eat at maintenance calories and with a 'lean' bulk, you eat at a 100-200 calorie surplus. If 12% bodyfat, lean bulk. Once 20% is reached, maingain to 12%. If over 20%, cut.

You just contradicted yourself...

You don't 'maingain' while losing BF%.... if you eat at weight maintenance, what exactly do you think is happening? Recomp down to 12%? That's not going to work unless you're like brand-new to the gym.

Not to mention, your fat loss would be so, so slow (if not non-existent), you'd basically just be on the upper-end of the BF range for years at a time... makes no sense.

[TolerantLactose]

Here we go again...

[cmacken]

FYI - if you are bulking from 12% to 20% BF you're probably putting on 2 pounds of fat to 1 pound of muscle - that's not based on studies, just simple math.

Agree with EiFit91 - most people are either skinny fat or fat-fat. I rarely ever see anyone who is super lean.

[Animal2692]

Here we go again...

Yeah, here we go again to you replying here we go again.

[Tommy W.]

Not this again.....

A) Having your counting down to exactly maintenance which changes daily won't happen

B) A surplus of 100 calories a day is next to impossible to nail due to (A) above and imperfect counting\tracking..


These are great ways to spin your wheels. Define your goal and focus on it.

Need muscle, Train properly with a surplus that will yield the most muscle and least amount of fat.

Need to lose fat? Run the biggest weekly deficit you can be consistent with while getting in proper nutrition. This number of calories will be higher than you think but usually not as low as needed

[Animal2692]

I’d love to see the natty that «maingained» his way from 20% to 12% without any cutting...

This stuff sounds great in theory but reality is different.

Also where is the cutting epidemic? Everywhere I go people are fat

I'm just saying that dieting goal-wise cutting is so popular that it eclipses bulking or building muscle. 12% isn't crazy lean like 8%, that's why I think maingaining to it is feasible? Maintenance calories are only 100-200 from a slow bulk. I'm sitting at around 20%, making progress every workout, eating at maintenance.

[Animal2692]

Not this again.....

A) Having your counting down to exactly maintenance which changes daily won't happen

B) A surplus of 100 calories a day is next to impossible to nail due to (A) above and imperfect counting\tracking..


These are great ways to spin your wheels. Define your goal and focus on it.

Need muscle, Train properly with a surplus that will yield the most muscle and least amount of fat.

Need to lose fat? Run the biggest weekly deficit you can be consistent with while getting in proper nutrition. This number of calories will be higher than you think but usually not as low as needed

I don't know, I'm seeing more and more people getting good results with maingaining, especially around 20% bf. Most legit fitness youtubers are even saying that the whole bulking/cutting cycle is overrated because people think they must either do one or the other. You say that my suggestion is a good way to spinning your wheels but yet I see so many people spinning their wheels by following bulking and cutting cycles.

[Animal2692]

You just contradicted yourself...

You don't 'maingain' while losing BF%.... if you eat at weight maintenance, what exactly do you think is happening? Recomp down to 12%? That's not going to work unless you're like brand-new to the gym.

Not to mention, your fat loss would be so, so slow (if not non-existent), you'd basically just be on the upper-end of the BF range for years at a time... makes no sense.

Ok you don't lose bodyfat maingaining, but muscle built will decrease bf % since it's lean tissue. A slow bulk is only 200 calories more than maintenance. With 20% bf to go around, I don't see why it would be slow. The time spent cutting really halts progress. If you add up all the months spent cutting in 3 years of lifting, that's a long time barely making any gains. Best case is you break even compared to someone who goes between maingaining and slow bulking.

[Tommy W.]

I don't know, I'm seeing more and more people getting good results with maingaining, especially around 20% bf. Most legit fitness youtubers are even saying that the whole bulking/cutting cycle is overrated because people think they must either do one or the other. You say that my suggestion is a good way to spinning your wheels but yet I see so many people spinning their wheels by following bulking and cutting cycles.

Just no.

[Animal2692]

Just no.

We can agree to disagree but 3 months spent cutting each year over 4 years, adds up to a year of hardly any gains. I just think the whole mentality of surplus or deficit only is dogmatic. It's too black or white

[TolerantLactose]

We can agree to disagree but 3 months spent cutting each year over 4 years, adds up to a year of hardly any gains. I just think the whole mentality of surplus or deficit only is dogmatic. It's too black or white

3 years of walking vs. 4 years of crawling.

I'm on a cut right now. 1.75 in of my waist in 3 weeks without breaking a sweat.

[GayCumLord]

I'ma just say that being over 25 BMI no matter how thicc and shredded you are is going to be bad for your heart and health

[AdamWW]

Ok you don't lose bodyfat maingaining, but muscle built will decrease bf % since it's lean tissue. A slow bulk is only 200 calories more than maintenance. With 20% bf to go around, I don't see why it would be slow. The time spent cutting really halts progress. If you add up all the months spent cutting in 3 years of lifting, that's a long time barely making any gains. Best case is you break even compared to someone who goes between maingaining and slow bulking.

uhhh...

It's 'slow' because you just spent like 1 year + 'slow building' and now you're trying to recomp from 20% down to 12% with ZERO calorie deficit.

By the time you get to 20%, your newbie gains will be gone basically, and muscle gain will be VERY slow...



There is a very specific anabolic benefit to being in a surplus, and being leaner makes you more sensitive to gaining mass as well.

So in my opinion, someone would be better of 'lean bulking' to 20%, then spending like 3 months cutting to 12%, then lean bulking again for like a year at a time unless they reach a BF level they want to change.

You'll have MORE time in a leaner, more aesthetic body, less overall time with higher blood sugar, triglycerides, etc, and you'll also be able to re-sensitize yourself.

[AdamWW]

I'ma just say that being over 25 BMI no matter how thicc and shredded you are is going to be bad for your heart and health

No it isn't...

You're saying that I, at 6-foot tall, cannot exceed 185lb even if im under 15% bodyfat without having health issues?

No... just no...

BMI is a Bell Curve distribution of what would be considered 'healthy' for the GENERAL population... so even in 'normal' BF ranges, not everyone's health is safe/best/optimized at the same level.

[EliKoehn]

I'ma just say that being over 25 BMI no matter how thicc and shredded you are is going to be bad for your heart and health

I agree with your general point but those specific parameters are pretty extreme. As a 6'2" man, I can't be 200 pounds without necessarily harming my health even if I'm very lean? I doubt it...

[Tommy W.]

We can agree to disagree but 3 months spent cutting each year over 4 years, adds up to a year of hardly any gains. I just think the whole mentality of surplus or deficit only is dogmatic. It's too black or white

The only way to lose fat is to be in a deficit. Once past the beginner stage of lifting adding muscle with no surplus becomes an exercise in futility . You want to get down to your preferred leanness then work on dialing in your diet so that there is minimal fat gain while adding quality muscle.

But you do you

[Animal2692]

uhhh...

It's 'slow' because you just spent like 1 year + 'slow building' and now you're trying to recomp from 20% down to 12% with ZERO calorie deficit.

By the time you get to 20%, your newbie gains will be gone basically, and muscle gain will be VERY slow...



There is a very specific anabolic benefit to being in a surplus, and being leaner makes you more sensitive to gaining mass as well.

So in my opinion, someone would be better of 'lean bulking' to 20%, then spending like 3 months cutting to 12%, then lean bulking again for like a year at a time unless they reach a BF level they want to change.

You'll have MORE time in a leaner, more aesthetic body, less overall time with higher blood sugar, triglycerides, etc, and you'll also be able to re-sensitize yourself.

I don't think the partitioning effect varies much between 12% and 20% bf as both are still very healthy levels. But if you're comparing the partitioning effect between 12% and 30% then yeah, definitely cut. I'm just saying we can take advantage of a gradient here. A surplus vs. Maintenance vs. Deficit is not all black or white. A surplus only means it's a more conducive environment for growth. If you're not close to your genetic ceiling and have about 20% bf to spare, you can make some good progress maingaining. Worst case you'll break even with someone cutting for 3 months.

[AdamWW]

I don't think the partitioning effect varies much between 12% and 20% bf as both are still very healthy levels. But if you're comparing the partitioning effect between 12% and 30% then yeah, definitely cut. I'm just saying we can take advantage of a gradient here. A surplus vs. Maintenance vs. Deficit is not all black or white. A surplus only means it's a more conducive environment for growth. If you're not close to your genetic ceiling and have about 20% bf to spare, you can make some good progress maingaining. Worst case you'll break even with someone cutting for 3 months.

Well good luck then... let us know how that goes

[Animal2692]

The only way to lose fat is to be in a deficit. Once past the beginner stage of lifting adding muscle with no surplus becomes an exercise in futility . You want to get down to your preferred leanness then work on dialing in your diet so that there is minimal fat gain while adding quality muscle.

But you do you

If you put on 10 pounds of muscle maingaining, that's 10 pounds of additional lean tissue to your frame which changes your bf %. Yeah you'll have the same amount of fat, but that's more ambiguous compared to percentage.

I agree to a point that after the beginner stage, it gets hard to add muscle without a surplus. But I want to add that it also depends on your bodyfat %. If you're at around 20% bf, it's not fighting to keep every last bit of it. Our bodies aren't dumb either, they'll tap into those stores. If you were going to have a surplus, it would be small anyways to the point that a single serving of whole milk would make all the didifference. If you're still making good progress in the gym on maintenance calories at 20% bodyfat, you're not going to say, "Oh I need to be in a surplus because I'm no longer a beginner." How much faster would a daily 150 calorie surplus allow at that point?

[EiFit91]

I'ma just say that being over 25 BMI no matter how thicc and shredded you are is going to be bad for your heart and health

Possibly, but afaik no study has shown health benefits from cutting from slightly overweight BMI to normal weight.

I know of a couple of meta-analyses on mortality curves and BMI; one of them finds lowest mortality at BMI < 25 and another at BMI = 25. But the health risks don’t increase a lot from going from normal weight to overweight...

[Animal2692]

Well good luck then... let us know how that goes

I'm telling you man, maingaining is underrated. It's gaining more and more traction in studies and YouTube fitness. I think Greg Doucette coined the term 'maingaining'. To gain weight you need a surplus. But to gain muscle you need a positive nitrogen balance.

[EiFit91]

I'm just saying that dieting goal-wise cutting is so popular that it eclipses bulking or building muscle. 12% isn't crazy lean like 8%, that's why I think maingaining to it is feasible? Maintenance calories are only 100-200 from a slow bulk. I'm sitting at around 20%, making progress every workout, eating at maintenance.

I think what you are talking about here is «recomping».

I have recomped from 20% to about 17-18%. I was in a small calorie deficit and religiously on point with both diet and training. Progress still felt relatively slow.

When maintaining your weight progress will feel ridiculously slow.

And it will get harder the leaner you get. It stopped working for me at 17-18%.

An actual 12% is very lean.

[EiFit91]

I'm telling you man, maingaining is underrated. It's gaining more and more traction in studies and YouTube fitness. I think Greg Doucette coined the term 'maingaining'. To gain weight you need a surplus. But to gain muscle you need a positive nitrogen balance.

Think in terms of counterfactuals.

Scenario 1: You gain 10 pounds of muscle and 5 lbs of fat bulking. You quickly diet of the fat in a month.

Scenario 2: You gain 5 pounds of muscle and lose 5 lbs of fat in the same amount of time as scenario 1

Which scenario do you prefer?

[AdamWW]

It's gaining more and more traction in studies

show me the studies then

And as soon as you refer to that talking parrot greg doucette, you lose a few points by default

Greg himself didn't even do this... he used to bulk HARD when he was actually gaining mass, and he's on drugs (and has been for a LONG time).

[Tommy W.]

If you put on 10 pounds of muscle maingaining, that's 10 pounds of additional lean tissue to your frame which changes your bf %. Yeah you'll have the same amount of fat, but that's more ambiguous compared to percentage.

I agree to a point that after the beginner stage, it gets hard to add muscle without a surplus. But I want to add that it also depends on your bodyfat %. If you're at around 20% bf, it's not fighting to keep every last bit of it. Our bodies aren't dumb either, they'll tap into those stores. If you were going to have a surplus, it would be small anyways to the point that a single serving of whole milk would make all the didifference. If you're still making good progress in the gym on maintenance calories at 20% bodyfat, you're not going to say, "Oh I need to be in a surplus because I'm no longer a beginner." How much faster would a daily 150 calorie surplus allow at that point?

BF% is not really a good gauge of body composition as depending on muscle amount say 15% would look totally different on 2 different people. you will add 10 lbs of muscle much faster in a slight surplus than relying on nitrogen balance in either a deficit or maintenance amount. With the correct surplus you will gain minimal fat and it is quickly dieted off.

Building muscle only requires a small 100 calorie surplus however nailing a diet within 100 calories is unrealistic so 200 ish is recommended then dialed in from there. Those amounts over maintenance make a big difference in muscle gain especially as you become leaner and more advanced.

Most of these youtubers are total yayhoo's so don't use them as the be all end all of knowledge.

[EiFit91]

uhhh...

It's 'slow' because you just spent like 1 year + 'slow building' and now you're trying to recomp from 20% down to 12% with ZERO calorie deficit.

By the time you get to 20%, your newbie gains will be gone basically, and muscle gain will be VERY slow...



There is a very specific anabolic benefit to being in a surplus, and being leaner makes you more sensitive to gaining mass as well.

So in my opinion, someone would be better of 'lean bulking' to 20%, then spending like 3 months cutting to 12%, then lean bulking again for like a year at a time unless they reach a BF level they want to change.

You'll have MORE time in a leaner, more aesthetic body, less overall time with higher blood sugar, triglycerides, etc, and you'll also be able to re-sensitize yourself.

3 months cutting from 20% to 12%? Man how fast do you cut?

[AdamWW]

3 months cutting from 20% to 12%? Man how fast do you cut?

No idea… I haven’t cut in…

Like 10 years…

[Animal2692]

BF% is not really a good gauge of body composition as depending on muscle amount say 15% would look totally different on 2 different people. you will add 10 lbs of muscle much faster in a slight surplus than relying on nitrogen balance in either a deficit or maintenance amount. With the correct surplus you will gain minimal fat and it is quickly dieted off.

Building muscle only requires a small 100 calorie surplus however nailing a diet within 100 calories is unrealistic so 200 ish is recommended then dialed in from there. Those amounts over maintenance make a big difference in muscle gain especially as you become leaner and more advanced.

Most of these youtubers are total yayhoo's so don't use them as the be all end all of knowledge.

I meant to say that lean muscle gain offsets bodyfat %. And I totally agree that a 100 calorie surplus is hard to track and doing 200 is better. The thing is if you started out lean and bulked up to 20%, that means you have a good amount of cutting to do. Say you need to cut 16lbs, you have to cut for about 4 months if you really want to preserve muscle mass, that stipulation alone forces you to take your time cutting. You essentially make 0 gains for a third of a year.