A logical take on abortion law

[yeshli2nuts]

If you're a logical and understanding person I'm not sure how you can disagree with this.

- We can all agree that at some point life begins.

- What we can't agree on is at what point that is.

- Some people might think that it begins at conception, some people at a heartbeat, some people at brain activity, some people at the time when the fetus can survive on its own out of the womb, and some people might think it starts at birth. Heck, many religions ban masturbation and contraception because those are viewed as a loss of potential life.

- People fighting about when life starts is just simply being close minded and is a pointless argument since it's entirely based on opinion.

- You can have whatever opinion you want and I will understand that there is no right answer and any opinion between ejaculation and birth is a valid opinion to me. I have my own opinion, but I completely understand that people may disagree and that's fine because it's a complex topic.

- Abortion has absolutely nothing to do with anyone except for the mother, father, fetus, and family of those people. A random person getting an abortion has no impact on you.

- All of this being the case, if some stranger believes that life starts at birth, then I am OK with that person choosing to have an abortion at any point during the pregnancy. Would I do that? No, because I believe life starts well before birth, but I'm not the one involved with it and like I said above, I respect their differing opinion and it has no impact on me.

- All of this being the case, I don't think the government should have any laws regarding abortion. Once a baby is born and you kill it, that's murder. But the government ruling that at some point abortion is not allowed, is them saying "this is my opinion and you must adhere by it". That's quite an anti-conservative and dictatorial approach. It's really not that much different than a more extreme approach if a government banned masturbation or contraception since there's a significant portion of the population that believes those are wrong.

- If you disagree with this, you're basically saying "my opinion is right and you're wrong for disagreeing"

[ezmac31]

I find abortion reprehensible, especially when used to unring the bell on some drunken mistake (incest and rape are a different story). That said I am reluctantly pro choice, due to wanting the government to stay the fuk away from telling us what we can do with our own bodies, which seems like a conservative perspective to me. I think the heartbeat principle is probably the most reasonable way to come at this thing.


Dear diary

[yeshli2nuts]

I find abortion reprehensible, especially when used to unring the bell on some drunken mistake (incest and rape are a different story). That said I am reluctantly pro choice, due to wanting the government to stay the fuk away from telling us what we can do with our own bodies, which seems like a conservative perspective to me. I think the heartbeat principle is probably the most reasonable way to come at this thing.


Dear diary

I commend you for agreeing that the government shouldn't have a say in it. To play devil's advocate, at what point do you find abortion reprehensible? Do you find the morning after pill reprehensible? Do you find any kind of sex other than for copulation reprehensible?

[ezmac31]

I commend you for agreeing that the government shouldn't have a say in it. To play devil's advocate, at what point do you find abortion reprehensible? Do you find the morning after pill reprehensible? Do you find any kind of sex other than for copulation reprehensible?

No I don’t find sex or plan B bad, those are good IMO. I think the act of willfully ending a pregnancy out of convenience is trash, but the issue is too nuanced for a one size fits all approach. Heartbeat seems like the point of reprehensible to me. The arguments of a kid growing up poor or with a bad mom are kind of weak in my opinion

[ohiostate124]

I’m fine with abortion is certain extreme circumstances like rape, incest, etc. but there should be limits to it. There is a certain point where you are killing another human. I don’t know exactly when that point is but its definitely well before the actual birth.

[VegasLifter26]

The only time I agree with abortion is if a woman is raped. In ancient times women would kill the babies if they were raped. But nowadays most women have abortions because a baby would be an inconvenience to them. Its almost like a secondary form of birth control. Personally, I would never allow my gf or spouse to get an abortion but I understand alot of women do them secretly. I think life begins at conception

[rhadam]

I simply do not believe that any governmental body (Fed/State) should impose restrictions on abortion. Whether I agree or disagree with abortion is, to me, irrelevant. It is not my, or the government's, job to determine the point of conception. Nor is it the job of citizens/government to mandate what a woman does with her body.

Money would be better spend educating children and providing free birth control to anyone who wants it.

[SmithMachineGuy]

Life begins at 18 when a person is a self sufficient legal adult. I should be allowed to abort my child until they are 18. Once a baby is 18 and you kill it, that's murder. But the government ruling that at some point abortion is not allowed, is them saying "this is my opinion and you must adhere by it". That's quite an anti-conservative and dictatorial approach.

If you disagree with this, you're basically saying "my opinion is right and you're wrong for disagreeing".

[Jessejame5]

life begins at conception, anything else is an arbitrary point
even almost all democrat biologists agree
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-a...wasnt-popular/

logic-wise, abortion is a black and white issue. but its the most debated because people bring emotion into it

[guitarwar241]

The government should 100% **** off when it comes to abortions. That's between the woman/family and the doctor.

[ezmac31]

That's between the woman/family and the doctor.

Yet you shill for vaccines every chance you get

[ClivesTriceps]

I smell baby killing sub-humans up in here.

[A-GAME]

Abortion is murder, the only logical and objective place life begins is at conception, and OP is a always and I mean ALWAYS a *******.

[CuriousReader]

Too many people irresponsibly reproduce that too many people should have never been born in this world. Look at the quality of mankind.

[TheJimmyRustler]

- All of this being the case, if some stranger believes that life starts at birth, then I am OK with that person choosing to have an abortion at any point during the pregnancy. Would I do that? No, because I believe life starts well before birth, but I'm not the one involved with it and like I said above, I respect their differing opinion and it has no impact on me.

So you think life starts before birth but that it's fine for people to kill them because they think differently?

Brb other people think life begins only when you can speak, so it's fine for them to kill their infant children

[z4v4]

In ancient times women would kill the babies if they were raped.

Sounds barbaric.

Personally, I would never allow my gf or spouse to get an abortion

This mentality is likely why you haven't been able to lock in a long-term girlfriend/spouse.

[isingmodel]

I simply do not believe that any governmental body (Fed/State) should impose restrictions on abortion. Whether I agree or disagree with abortion is, to me, irrelevant. It is not my, or the government's, job to determine the point of conception. Nor is it the job of citizens/government to mandate what a woman does with her body.

Money would be better spend educating children and providing free birth control to anyone who wants it.

end thread

[Noahbro]

Killing any babies is bad and immoral. When you have so many ways to avoid getting pregnant, having an abortion shouldn’t even be an option. It should have never existed to begin with. We need to start teaching people on how to be accountable which their life choices. We have gotten to the point where sucking the teet of the government is the norm.

[Muscle2021]

lmao so with your logic you are ok with an 8 month old baby being killed. Thats crazy

[LtGoose]

Just lolz @ women having rights

[Kraken]

Here is the problem with abortion; government funding. When government funds something, its automatically political. If anyone wants abortion legal, maybe they should have thought of that before forcing people to fund it through taxation. States pull funding, but then the Fed steps in and funds it anyway. So now states have to outright ban abortions to fight against the Fed.

When you force people to participate in something they feel is immoral, they will resist and fight, until the left pushes the right far enough to retaliate with far right ideals in order to stop the left

[RIKTER]

I simply do not believe that any governmental body (Fed/State) should impose restrictions on abortion. Whether I agree or disagree with abortion is, to me, irrelevant. It is not my, or the government's, job to determine the point of conception. Nor is it the job of citizens/government to mandate what a woman does with her body.

Money would be better spend educating children and providing free birth control to anyone who wants it.

Bold: Then let science decide. Whats the earliest born baby that survived? Because after that date, its indisputable that you are now killing a viable human life.

That said, as much as I hate abortion, Im pro choice only because of the social/economic reasons. Imagine the size of the entitlement state/prisons, etc if it were illegal.

[leafs43]

If you're okay with abortion, you should be okay with a man making a choice of abandoning the mother and child.

[Kraken]

If you're okay with abortion, you should be okay with a man making a choice of abandoning the mother and child.

Correct. Unfortunately, fathers being out of the picture leads to bad outcomes too. In fact, the welfare state helped make fathers less "Necessary" for survival. AT one time, the family unit depended on each other.

This is why I said that the values of America have fallen from anything moral. Socialization of our system has lead to corruption of values like dominoes falling.

[kingmanaverage]

lmao so with your logic you are ok with an 8 month old baby being killed. Thats crazy

Pretty sure that's a strawman. I didn't see OP say it's ok to kill 8-month-olds anywhere.

If you're okay with abortion, you should be okay with a man making a choice of abandoning the mother and child.

Does that mean that someone who's against abortions at any point should be ok with paying for single baby mommas?

[RIKTER]

Pretty sure that's a strawman. I didn't see OP say it's ok to kill 8-month-olds anywhere.

From OP: "All of this being the case, I don't think the government should have any laws regarding abortion."

I take that at face value, unless Im missing something?

[numberguy12]

From OP: "All of this being the case, I don't think the government should have any laws regarding abortion."

I take that at face value, unless Im missing something?

When you say “8 month old baby”, many are going to take this as an 8 month old infant. When giving your age, do you normally date it from conception? If it were, say, 5 months after your 46th birthday, you typically call yourself 47 years old? Perhaps Muscle could have used “8 month old fetus” to avoid the confusion.

However, I’m not sure OP’s argument is entirely against some random person being killed, infant or not, if it is not directly affecting you (kind of an odd take- anything goes if it’s not affecting you personally?)

There is no real logic or “answer” in the abortion debate. It’s not a logic problem waiting to be solved, or even a question of science really.

The stance repeated predictably several times ITT “against abortion except in the case of rape” is curious. This signifies to me the person is not so much concerned about when human life begins, killing an innocent human being or any of that....it’s just about that gotcha factor about being irresponsible and making bad choices (without free will, there is no “choice” anyway, whatever that would mean, in any situation, but this is a different topic).

A: Are you ok with the killing of X?
B: Well hold on first...how did X arise, was it by consensual sex or rape? (note this is utterly beyond the control of X, X is an innocent party in all this).
A: X arose by rape.
B: Then I don’t care, X can be killed.

Run this conversation, first replacing X with, say, a 3 month old fetus. Then run it back if X were replaced with, say a 6 month old infant. Multiple people in this thread seem to be ok with B’s stance in the first case, does this mean they are also ok with B’s stance in the latter case? If not, then they must be differentiating the case of a fetus vs a born infant in some fundamental way, and it’s not so much longer about how human personhood starts well before birth or any of that, after all.

[z4v4]

From OP: "All of this being the case, I don't think the government should have any laws regarding abortion."

I take that at face value, unless Im missing something?

Yeah, I think you're missing what the medical definition of the word abortion is.

[z4v4]

The stance repeated predictably several times ITT “against abortion except in the case of rape” is curious. This signifies to me the person is not so much concerned about when human life begins, killing an innocent human being or anything thing like that....it’s just about that gotcha factor about being irresponsible and making bad choices (without free will, there is no “choice” anyway, whatever that would mean, in any situation, but this is a different topic).

Ain't that the truth...

[Muscle2021]

Pretty sure that's a strawman. I didn't see OP say it's ok to kill 8-month-olds anywhere.

Actually he did. He said he doesn't support laws to protect unborn children.
The real issue here is that OP thinks he can use logic to reach a reasonable position on which most reasonable people can agree with.
But he didn't.