Identifying Metabolic Crashes

[Adiakritos]

Hey there,

So I've been dieting for a little over a year now. I started at 201lbs @ 19% BF and I'm at 170.3lbs @ 13.2% BF now. My goal is to hit abs.

Yes I've plateaued, but I've known that to break the plateau I have to introduce a refeed. I've done this successfully before, but it doesn't seem to be working anymore.

Whenever I start to enter that deeply hungry and very weak and low energy state I typically will keep it going until Thursday, when I eat my 1 refeed meal.

In a pervious cut I'd learned that I must get in a refeed otherwise I risk a metabolic slowdown / crash. So I've stayed pretty true to these refeeds.

The refeeds boost my calories to above the target calories for that one day, and usually is like half a cuban sandwich (about the size of a normal sandwich).

I've tried carb cycling as well using a prescription from some author on TNation. The first week it did work, and then the following 3 weeks I stayed the same.

When do I know to introduce a refeed so I'm not JUST doing them whenever I feel like I'm going to murder a house and eat it?? I think asking the question has me realize the answer - probablly only introducing refeeds when I'm actually seeing no change over 7 days. The trigger to do so isn't routine and isn't how my body feels but what the numbers are telling me and perhaps even the mirror.

During this cut, the last time I actually reached 12% BF is when I was using Hydroxycut. But I really would prefer not using stims to get to the next level. It's not like I'm sub 10s now where I want to get that extra edge, perhaps at that point I'd be willing to use the fat burners again.

Some clarification here would be massively appreciated!

Here's a picture of my stats over time - not every row is a week, sometimes it's 2 weeks, sometimes its 2 days. But still produces a trendline down the columns.

[SuffolkPunch]

There is no such thing as a metabolic crash (outside of serious medical conditions like hypothyroidism). Small amounts of adaptation can take place when moving from maintenance to either bulking or cutting (as much as +/-200 calories in both directions)

You can't measure LBM with any kind of accuracy with most methods so ignore all numbers apart from your bodyweight. You can proxy muscle mass and BF% by measuring strength and keeping track of your waist measurement - both over the longer term.

If your weight stops dropping suddenly without you altering your intake, this is most likely due to water retention which can go on for weeks.

[faithbrah]

all this time the answer was to eat less. it's not possible to be in a big deficit while nearly maintaining your weight for 4 months

probably sounds cold but it's the truth, hope this helps though

[Tommy W.]

You need to lower your weekly calories and / or add more activity. The leaner you get the fewer calories you need to maintain your weight. To continue losing you need to be below that new maintenance. Maintenance drops by around 100 calories a day for every 10 lbs you lose. Try to not do a cheat meal or day and just include those foods in your normal diet on a limited basis to still hit your weekly calorie target.

[EiFit91]

Hey there,

So I've been dieting for a little over a year now. I started at 201lbs @ 19% BF and I'm at 170.3lbs @ 13.2% BF now. My goal is to hit abs.

Yes I've plateaued, but I've known that to break the plateau I have to introduce a refeed. I've done this successfully before, but it doesn't seem to be working anymore.

Whenever I start to enter that deeply hungry and very weak and low energy state I typically will keep it going until Thursday, when I eat my 1 refeed meal.

In a pervious cut I'd learned that I must get in a refeed otherwise I risk a metabolic slowdown / crash. So I've stayed pretty true to these refeeds.

The refeeds boost my calories to above the target calories for that one day, and usually is like half a cuban sandwich (about the size of a normal sandwich).

I've tried carb cycling as well using a prescription from some author on TNation. The first week it did work, and then the following 3 weeks I stayed the same.

When do I know to introduce a refeed so I'm not JUST doing them whenever I feel like I'm going to murder a house and eat it?? I think asking the question has me realize the answer - probablly only introducing refeeds when I'm actually seeing no change over 7 days. The trigger to do so isn't routine and isn't how my body feels but what the numbers are telling me and perhaps even the mirror.

During this cut, the last time I actually reached 12% BF is when I was using Hydroxycut. But I really would prefer not using stims to get to the next level. It's not like I'm sub 10s now where I want to get that extra edge, perhaps at that point I'd be willing to use the fat burners again.

Some clarification here would be massively appreciated!

Here's a picture of my stats over time - not every row is a week, sometimes it's 2 weeks, sometimes its 2 days. But still produces a trendline down the columns.

At 5'9'' (the height specified in your profile), I think it is very unlikely that you are 13.2% or even close when you have a waist size of 90 cm (according to the log you posted). And no way that you started at 19% at 201 lbs. You probably carry more fat than you think.

[AlexSays]

As above it is time for some tough love:

1) if you are 13.2% bodyfat and can't see your abs you are not 13.2% bodyfat (at least for the vast majority of males). If you are using a scale/callipers rather than a visual estimate from an experienced person then likely you have been greatly underestimating your bodyfat. All bodyfat scales are so inaccurate as to be almost comical, ignore them and go based on the mirror.

2) you have not 'crashed' there is no such thing. This is a myth propagated some years ago by personal trainers and fitness/diet companies. The unfortunate truth is that you are not eating below maintenance. 'refeeds' are just increasing your calorie total for the week, do them if you want for sanity reasons but don't expect them to solve anything. Either your counting is off or you maintenance is lower than you think (it can decrease with weight loss, but never to the level of 'starvation mode' or 'metabolic crash' that some would have you believe). In every single case it is a combination of those two things. For example, if you are eating '1800 calories' it is a fair bet that you are actually eating a fair bit more than that, and that whatever you are eating is over or at your maintenance

Short answer, metabolic crash doesn't exist, refeeds are fitness guru BS and you need to eat less

EDIT: and there is no need to carb cycle, you are not an advanced athlete or IFBB pro. Just eat a level of carbs that works for you and forget complicated advice, it is often wrong and ALWAYS unnecessary

[TolerantLactose]

Week ending Oct 8, you claim a daily deficit of over 2100 cal/day.... and you gained weight.

There may be a possibility that you're not tracking correctly.

[Luclin999]

You aren't tracking correctly at all.

Eat less, not more.

[Adiakritos]

To keep things focused, the ideal outcome of this thread would be to identify why I may not be losing more fat and know what I can test out and check to keep the fat coming off.

From everyone’s awesome responses it appears the main reason is simply I’m not maintaining a caloric deficit enough consistently.

I’ll drop carbs a bit to reduce calories by 100 a day and also do 3 more cardio sessions per week and then post again in a few weeks to see if things improve.

Also the log I posted has values entered for weight and body fat and the rest are calculated and derived from those two.

Also the values may not be accurate but if they give me a trend I can see if I’m going in the right direction before I can actually see the change in the mirror. Ultimately I care how I look of course as that’s the goal.

[xsquid99]

You dropped roughly 4 lbs in 4 months, which means your average deficit per day over that amount of time was just over 100 calories a day.

Whatever calorie level you think you're currently eating you need to drop by at least another 400 per day.

[SuffolkPunch]

You can't even use BIA for spotting trends... it's just flat out inaccurate - in both a random and systematic way. Why? Because it actually measures water content of your cells which is only vaguely related to body composition and can vary over time for other reasons.

[Adiakritos]

You dropped roughly 4 lbs in 4 months, which means your average deficit per day over that amount of time was just over 100 calories a day.

Whatever calorie level you think you're currently eating you need to drop by at least another 400 per day.

Thank you, this is super specific and actionable. I’ll do exactly this.

[Adiakritos]

You can't even use BIA for spotting trends... it's just flat out inaccurate - in both a random and systematic way. Why? Because it actually measures water content of your cells which is only vaguely related to body composition and can vary over time for other reasons.

I see, that’s great to know.

So like you said just total bodyweight. Perhaps also mirror and tape measure of my waistline?

[Adiakritos]

here's a progress pic from about a week ago to go with the stats. It may or may not be accurate.

Either way, I think the biggest help here is recognizing that I should be basing progress on mirror and total weight, and also basically seeing that if I lose 1lb in a week, it's 500 cals deficit. So if I lose 4 lbs in 3 months, that about 155 caloric daily deficit. It's that straightforward.

[Adiakritos]

You dropped roughly 4 lbs in 4 months, which means your average deficit per day over that amount of time was just over 100 calories a day.

Whatever calorie level you think you're currently eating you need to drop by at least another 400 per day.

This ties into what SuffolkPunch said and it the most eyeopening part.

Thank you

[Adiakritos]

I've smashed through the plateau this week, dropping to 169.5 this morning. This is from dropping overall calories by 400 and increasing cardio sessions frequency. That's exactly what I needed. I was misled by the numbers I was focused on. I can see overall more definition around my body. Finally, for the first time ever in my life, my body is taking a real 'in-shape' look. Thanks for your advice everyone!

[xsquid99]

I've smashed through the plateau this week, dropping to 169.5 this morning. This is from dropping overall calories by 400 and increasing cardio sessions frequency. That's exactly what I needed. I was misled by the numbers I was focused on. I can see overall more definition around my body. Finally, for the first time ever in my life, my body is taking a real 'in-shape' look. Thanks for your advice everyone!

Right on dude, glad to hear it! Just keep your calories as consistent as possible and the weight will come off.

[AlexSays]

I've smashed through the plateau this week, dropping to 169.5 this morning. This is from dropping overall calories by 400 and increasing cardio sessions frequency. That's exactly what I needed. I was misled by the numbers I was focused on. I can see overall more definition around my body. Finally, for the first time ever in my life, my body is taking a real 'in-shape' look. Thanks for your advice everyone!

Good job man

[Adiakritos]

168.4 lbs this morning

Just a little flab around my love handle areas but the hips bones are starting to really show more.

Curious to know when I'll see the oblique muscles more. Everything else seems much more defined.

Not even feeling crazy hungry.

I'm just gonna keep going until I like how I look. My guess would be around 165-ish.

[Adiakritos]

166.6 lbs

I'm losing weight even faster than I thought I might. Damn! And still got some chub to cut through. Beforre after pictures definitely show the side chubs reducing a lot. If I wear a tight shorts they bunch up but aside from that I see my whole stomach very flat and my hips are even more pronounced. Super pumped to find out at what weight I'm gonna actually be able to see a full visible 6 pack. At the rate I was going before this would have taken so much longer.. and it had already been taking way too long.. And to think that I was even taking hydroxycut at one point. Still not even THAT crazy hungry either.

[xsquid99]

Its a rare thing when we see the whole thing finally "click" with people and they get it and see that the process does indeed work when you trust it. Thanks for sharing your update!

[Adiakritos]

I'm down to 160.8. I eat just around 1600 calories per day. Mostly protein and veggies at this point with a tablespoon of carbs at 1 meal. No salt on anything. I haven't plateaued yet. Still have a tiny bit of fat around the bottom portion of my abs. I had a few set backs from vacations and an emergency trip to another country. I've never been this light since highschool! I obviously look way better though. I'd have liked to begin this cut with more muscle but I do think I look smaller than I really am because of how depleted my body is of glycogen. When I do plateau I think the only thing left for me to do is add another day or two of cardio. My goal has been abs and I'm just never going to stop cutting until I see them totally and completely. It's taken MUCH longer than I expected. I heard somewhere that the only difference between those that are shredded and those that aren't is simply that the ones who are shredded have been doing the same things for a much longer duration.

[Adiakritos]

Just an update of where I'm at at 160.8lbs. After gym so I'm pumped. I don't look like this before I hit the gym.

[xsquid99]

Just an update of where I'm at at 160.8lbs. After gym so I'm pumped. I don't look like this before I hit the gym.

You're still carrying a lot of fat around your midsection, so you have a ways to go, you're around 18-20% right now.

[Adiakritos]

You're still carrying a lot of fat around your midsection, so you have a ways to go, you're around 18-20% right now.

I severely underestimated the amount of work it would take to get abs! lol Good to know. I've resolved to just continue until I see them. So I guess I maybe around 150-155lbs.

[xsquid99]

I severely underestimated the amount of work it would take to get abs! lol Good to know. I've resolved to just continue until I see them. So I guess I maybe around 150-155lbs.

Guess again. Probably between 15-20 more lbs to go.

[Adiakritos]

Holy ****! Alright! I'll post again with my weight and abs to see where it ended up being. I've been wrong on so many things up till now so probably better to overestimate the timeframe and progress so I just grind it out properly.

[Adiakritos]

Did like 4 extra sessions of cardio this week and tighten the screws on total calories a bit more. Now finally starting to see a V shape form under my belly. 🤩 almost there!

[Adiakritos]

Dropped starches almost entirely, increased cardio by 4 sessions per week. Sometimes two 30 min sessions per day. With additional water I think this shocked my body as I’m reading 1-2 lbs heavier in the scale each day since making these changes.

So while keeping calories at around 1500 I’ll go back to the macro split that was working which included starches.

I figured that by going to straight veggies and protein without any starch and also increasing cardio I’d see more fat loss but instead it seems my body is trying harder to hold it. Usually I’d introduce a “refeed” meal at this point to flip whatever hormonal switches have been set off by the extreme changes. But instead of the feast/famine thing it seems it’s been more consistent to just keep macros constant and adjust little by little not making drastic changes.

[Adiakritos]

What’s crazy is that by journaling my process here I can see how this change I made was purely from a psychological need to speed things up and go astray from what’s worked. I think I answered my own question about what caused the increase in weight despite the changes. So I can see my own sabotage of results in being hasty. It makes it very obvious to myself. I love this journey partly because of the physical rewards but the mental development is so awesome as well.

When xsquid99 told me I have 15-20lbs to go my brain freaked out and I started trying to cut corners and push harder and the result was instantly seeing the scale go up instead of down.