What's wrong with adding another chest excercise to Fierce 5?

[Wendal]

Browsing around the forum I noticed some posters asking if it's beneficial to throw in another chest exercise to Fierce 5 beginners level, which only has one chest exercise - flat bench press. But the answer is always "no, stick the program as is."

My question is, what's wrong adding one more chest exercise? How would it hinder ones progress and how would it not simply improve one's chest muscle growth?

[TolerantLactose]

Are you going to add another back exercise? Quad exercise? Hamstring/glute? Why just chest?

[air2fakie]

If you've been on here since 2004 and are still on F5 novice it prob won't make a diff either way.

OHP works the chest too btw.


F5 author: "Why can’t I add in other exercises? If you knew how to correctly do this then you'd have written your own routine. 99% of the time when I'm asked if something is ok, it's a no from me. It normally messes something else up."

[BeginnerGainz]

Simplest thing to do is replace OHP with incline bench if you want more chest focus.

[leidenesLK]

Browsing around the forum I noticed some posters asking if it's beneficial to throw in another chest exercise to Fierce 5 beginners level, which only has one chest exercise - flat bench press. But the answer is always "no, stick the program as is."

My question is, what's wrong adding one more chest exercise? How would it hinder ones progress and how would it not simply improve one's chest muscle growth?

If you’re a novice you don’t need that much to grow. All you’re doing is increasing workload for the same results, which is fine for now but gives you less options in the future if you stall. If you care about sustained progress, doing less now sets you up for more in the future. Break the typical novice ‘more is more‘ mentality and you’ll go a long way. If the extra chest work will keep you consistent in the gym, then do it. Just be mindful of the potential balancing issues this causes and adopting this ‘add here but not there’ approach would require a good amount of knowledge on programming balance.

The creator of F5 made a thread about programming balance. Read it.

[MyEgoProblem]

The answer is..

If you have to ask, you don't know enough to change anything like asking if a girl finished.. If you have to ask... xD

Most who ask are just boys with no back.. Who can only see their own bewbs and no mass.

Some people say balance. But pushull ratios that are normally cited are outdated and not really an issue at all.. "balance" it's just too nuanced to go thru that whole discussion

Edit.

If you've been on here since 2004 and are still on F5 novice it prob won't make a diff either way.

OHP works the chest too btw.


F5 author: "Why can’t I add in other exercises? If you knew how to correctly do this then you'd have written your own routine. 99% of the time when I'm asked if something is ok, it's a no from me. It normally messes something else up."

Thanks for digging that out mate /spread

I 1000% agree, especially as I consulted on the entire program and rewrite with Davis.

The creator of F5 made a thread about programming balance. Read it.

Its a decent idiot proofing for basic stuff!

Lacks some of the necessary nuance to be comprehensive but perfect for here and the majority of novices and people whose only inroads to programming are bro lore..

[leidenesLK]

Some people say balance. But pushull ratios that are normally cited are outdated and not really an issue at all.. "balance" it's just too nuanced to go thru that whole discussion

Interesting. Do you have any good reads on this topic?

[sooby]

Interesting. Do you have any good reads on this topic?

basically the jist of it, anybody feel free to correct me but shoulder health can't simply be reduced to an arbitrary pull to push ratio. Not all pushing and pulling exercises are created equal or are the same either. You also have external rotation, internal rotation, the scapula can move through many different planes, can be retracted, depressed, etc.

shoulder health depends on so many different factors, some of which may not have to do with the shoulder itself. you can't magically fix posture by doing a whole bunch of face pulls and reverse flies because it's more complicated than this.

MAYBE, if you did literally zero back exercises you could say that doing zero pulling MAY lead to injury, I put maybe and may in caps to emphasize that it's a possibility but not really based on anything. However, I don't think anybody can make the claim that having a 1:1 push-pull ratio is inherently detrimental to shoulder health over say a 1:2 ratio. Not to mention it would probably be highly individual and based on their needs.

As long as you a variety of pushing and pulling movements you should be fine and as you get more experienced you get a better sense of your own strengths/weaknesses and what seems to work best for you as an individual. Also lifestyle comes into consideration whether you work at your office all day or you are out and about.

I remember awhile ago Davis having a "posture" program but took it down after he realized you should probably see a physio to assess you rather than "just do this program, but with these few changes".

https://rehab-u.com/blog/push-pull-r...eally-need-it/

he basically echoes what I'm trying to say, get your shoulders strong and healthy by employing a variety of movements which train the shoulder in different planes and positions.

[leidenesLK]

basically the jist of it, anybody feel free to correct me but shoulder health can't simply be reduced to an arbitrary pull to push ratio. Not all pushing and pulling exercises are created equal or are the same either. You also have external rotation, internal rotation, the scapula can move through many different planes, can be retracted, depressed, etc.

shoulder health depends on so many different factors, some of which may not have to do with the shoulder itself. you can't magically fix posture by doing a whole bunch of face pulls and reverse flies because it's more complicated than this.

MAYBE, if you did literally zero back exercises you could say that doing zero pulling MAY lead to injury, I put maybe and may in caps to emphasize that it's a possibility but not really based on anything. However, I don't think anybody can make the claim that having a 1:1 push-pull ratio is inherently detrimental to shoulder health over say a 1:2 ratio. Not to mention it would probably be highly individual and based on their needs.

As long as you a variety of pushing and pulling movements you should be fine and as you get more experienced you get a better sense of your own strengths/weaknesses and what seems to work best for you as an individual. Also lifestyle comes into consideration whether you work at your office all day or you are out and about.

I remember awhile ago Davis having a "posture" program but took it down after he realized you should probably see a physio to assess you rather than "just do this program, but with these few changes".

https://rehab-u.com/blog/push-pull-r...eally-need-it/

he basically echoes what I'm trying to say, get your shoulders strong and healthy by employing a variety of movements which train the shoulder in different planes and positions.

Thanks brother, that seems very logical. I think it goes without saying that those with existing conditions should be training under the directive of a professional, as opposed to trying to correct their issues with movement/planar balancing in their weight training program. Preventative maintenance is where the waters are muddied, which is where individualization and experimentation from experience come into play - eg. if someone’s routine looks poorly balanced, according to basic recommendations, but they have been training for an appreciable amount of time, and it hasn’t caused them any issues, then there is no reason for them to ‘correct’ it. In saying that, in the case of novices, I think it’s fine to suggest push/pull ratios. Their lack of experience makes individualization virtually impossible because they have no evidence as to how their body responds to basic weight training. At the very least, a push/pull ratio acts as a way of mitigating an overemphasis on ‘show muscles’, which novices tend to get carried away with (as ego touched on). This overemphasis, at best, doesn’t do anything positive for the structural integrity of the shoulder girdle, due to chest being one of the biggest offenders for ‘show muscles’ and its movements being internal rotation dominant.

Now that I think of it, one flaw of the push/pull ratio is a lack of attention to vital muscles such as the serratus anterior, which is huge for structural integrity of the shoulder girdle. Responsible for helping the scapula sit flush against the rib cage for smooth protraction/upward rotation, the serratus anterior doesn’t really get hit in basic weight training routines, with scapula winging resulting as a common symptom for a weak serratus. Pushing compounds teach us to retract the scapula, greatly reducing the protraction component in the serratus’ function. We get the upward rotation component in a standing OHP, but it’s quite common for lifters to replace this for other shoulder work (seated/machine press) or more chest work (incline), which only exacerbates this issue.

Cheers again for the link, will definitely give it a read. On spread

[BeginnerGainz]

Thanks brother, that seems very logical. I think it goes without saying that those with existing conditions should be training under the directive of a professional, as opposed to trying to correct their issues with movement/planar balancing in their weight training program. Preventative maintenance is where the waters are muddied, which is where individualization and experimentation from experience come into play - eg. if someone’s routine looks poorly balanced, according to basic recommendations, but they have been training for an appreciable amount of time, and it hasn’t caused them any issues, then there is no reason for them to ‘correct’ it. In saying that, in the case of novices, I think it’s fine to suggest push/pull ratios. Their lack of experience makes individualization virtually impossible because they have no evidence as to how their body responds to basic weight training. At the very least, a push/pull ratio acts as a way of mitigating an overemphasis on ‘show muscles’, which novices tend to get carried away with (as ego touched on). This overemphasis, at best, doesn’t do anything positive for the structural integrity of the shoulder girdle, due to chest being one of the biggest offenders for ‘show muscles’ and its movements being internal rotation dominant.

Now that I think of it, one flaw of the push/pull ratio is a lack of attention to vital muscles such as the serratus anterior, which is huge for structural integrity of the shoulder girdle. Responsible for helping the scapula sit flush against the rib cage for smooth protraction/upward rotation, the serratus anterior doesn’t really get hit in basic weight training routines, with scapula winging resulting as a common symptom for a weak serratus. Pushing compounds teach us to retract the scapula, greatly reducing the protraction component in the serratus’ function. We get the upward rotation component in a standing OHP, but it’s quite common for lifters to replace this for other shoulder work (seated/machine press) or more chest work (incline), which only exacerbates this issue.

Cheers again for the link, will definitely give it a read. On spread

Scapular winging is a neurological issue, not simply a result of a weak muscle.

https://www.cureus.com/articles/1007...tment#abstract

Depends on how you bench, some people will let the shoulders protract and retract with dumbbells, cable and machines. Same goes for incline DB to get that humerus closer to the center line of the chest at the top.

Also, I’m not sure why you think the serratus isn’t hit in machine versions of OHP, unless you aren’t doing it right. My serratus is sore after a hard session of machine OR dB OHP/high incline press.

[leidenesLK]

Scapular winging is a neurological issue, not simply a result of a weak muscle.

https://www.cureus.com/articles/1007...tment#abstract

Depends on how you bench, some people will let the shoulders protract and retract with dumbbells, cable and machines. Same goes for incline DB to get that humerus closer to the center line of the chest at the top.

Also, I’m not sure why you think the serratus isn’t hit in machine versions of OHP, unless you aren’t doing it right. My serratus is sore after a hard session of machine OR dB OHP/high incline press.

You’re correct, it can be caused by damage to the long thoracic nerve from memory (I could be wrong). I have minor scapula winging and have had it checked by a PT who believes it is not a neurological issue. I know this myself because I can train my serratus and can get a great pump (good mmc). If there was damage to the nerve, training it wouldn’t be so straight forward because it wouldn’t be able to contract effectively, making the mmc very difficult or impossible to achieve. For reference, I have damage to the nerve that innervates my left quadricep and I barely ever feel it working, it’s also noticeably smaller in size. But I’m not a PT or medical professional, so the only advice would be to seek professional help if someone has that issue. Keep in mind that the reason winging occurs, from nerve damage, is due to a serratus that’s failing to contract from poor innervation, causing poor force output = weakness. Therefore, it’s not a stretch to assume a weak serratus, with sufficient innervation, can cause the same issue (albeit with varying severity). Typically, winging caused by thoracic nerve damage is much greater in severity, where the scapula ‘hangs’ loosely and is met with the appearance of a ‘disappearing’ lat from front on. A lot of mild cases are attributed to a weak serratus muscle, without nerve damage, which causes moderate winging. It’s quite common where many won’t realize they even have it. Again, seeking professional help is the only correct advice.

You’re also correct about the chest stuff. Although I’m making the point for basic weight training routines, so machines and cables weren’t considered. For form, I’m going by the general recommendation, which is to keep the scapula retracted, not fixed though. It still does protract for sure, but compare this to a push up plus, which gets full protraction. It’s safe to assume that most lifters don’t bench like that. That is how to maximally engage the serratus in protraction.

For seated press - They definitely do, but not as effectively as a standing free press IMO/E. For seated, incline etc, you’re bracing against a support, so the scapula is battling a frictional force to upwardly rotate. My point here was to opt for the movement that better engages it, seeing as it already takes a back seat in most programs (generic programs). Admittedly, a bit of an exaggeration on my part and someone who opts for something other than a free press may never experience issues. But the topic was structural balance for preventative maintenance, so I was chiming in with that in mind.

[MyEgoProblem]

That's why I face the other way in Ohp machines.... To press overhead.

No back rest, no getting locked onto the pad, no cheesing it Into an incline.

Not that I have a problem with doing a very high incline that way. Just people never call it what it is and are deluding them selves.

My incline work is set about 8' due to how I stack my bench at home or around 60' in the gym.
The stuff In between (commercial angles) all feels like dog **** on my shoulder that has no ac ligaments

[TAWS6]

Just to add. A novice benching 185 for 5 does not need more chest work. You want to start with the least amount of volume that you need to grow. At a certain point when you need more volume it becomes very difficult to keep adding volume in on that program. At which point you move to the intermediate version (when you NEED more volume).