What am I doing wrong! mysterious changes! fix my routine please

[Qowiiyya]

A whole 2 lbs isn't going to make any difference in your look at a height of 5'6". If you were carrying enough overall muscle you would be ripped at the weight you're at now. Your being soft and lack of definition is a clear indicator you're undermuscled. You're at 55 kgs now trying to reach a goal of 52-53 kgs. That's where your thought process is backwards. You'll never be able to build and ass or any other bodypart when you're constantly cutting...you can't build something out of nothing.

When you deprive the body for so long (which you've been doing,) it starts to fight back. That's what's happening to you right now. You're battling trying to get to a low weight that your body is not naturally meant to be at.

Everything you're doing is unhealthy and it's written all though out your posts.

Kim forreal... two pounds doesn't make a darn diff to my look, but I just feel better and lighter and able to run around in my property with greater vigour and energy, anything under 121 FEELS good energy-wise.. above 123 and I feel slower and just more lazy. I EAT! seriously... even grains in healthy portions... I make homemade sourdough croissants, and traditional pastries, I just eat them S p r e a d out, and not all in one go in huge portions. I have them in my freezer for whenever I want... But Kim I am so grateful for your advice and words and maybe I will just have to re-do this and figure it out properly. I honestly just thought 123lbs (56kg) at around 18%bf was a good place to cut... MY BAD I will never do that again lest I get cursed into the outcasted land of ED... lol...wow..

[Qowiiyya]

Athletes normally have a team of professionals that monitor their health and are at a completely different level than your average gym goer. The MMA fighter you mentioned actually doesn't like fighting at 115lbs and is pushing for a Flyweight division of 125lbs because getting that low makes her weaker. Her weight outside of actual fights is in the high 120s to low 130s. Her fighting weight is not something she maintains year round.

Its very common for people not to count calories and still be under weight. Usually it's not realizing how little they really eat and being very active. From everything that I have read on medical research sites like pub med ect, staying at a low weight can have just as many health issues as being obese. It may come in different forms but it still happens.

You went from a very extreme fast that probably put your hormones completely out of wack to hitting an extreme refeeding and exercise regime which probably made it worse. I would suggest getting a check up and complete blood panel, at the very least, to make sure You are ok.

Echo, I fully understand what you are saying and I agree completely. JJ (for the purposes of not typing that last name I can never spell) is obviously a pro... Im obviously not wanting to be exactly like her... that as ridiculous as me saying I wanna be beyonce or have a real non-realistic ass but exactly like kim kardashian or nikki manaj - i wasn't meaning literally EXACTLY LIKE HER... lol that sounds creepy and fixated... But I was meaning around about that kinda physique.. lol... 120b is still ok for me, I do feel ok at that weight. It feels healthy and still heaps of energy.

Yes, I totally agree about maintaining an underweight state... but 52.5kg is within normal range. In cm Im 168cm and it shows that its normal BMI... Thank you for recommending a a check up. I have two great GPS who really take care of me. No, they aren't in love with my naturopathic methods of health., but they are both open-minded and natural as a allopathic doctor can be - After my fast I got checked up and consulted closely with both docs, did my bloods, I had to have plant proteins, then get onto my animal protein, and just make sure my B12 and folate was topped up... other than that I was in exceptional health! I felt better than ever. Actually prior to the fast, I had some pretty rough hormone issues, yet after they were perfect! and my skin glowed like a childs! It did actually sort many things in my body out. I know you may be sceptical, and its not for everyone - I know, but it really did help me. But please know thats not how I live day-to-day! I cook 3 square meals with snacks most days in this household! thats not who I am... I'm not someone who thinks thats the way to live or eat... but i accept that is an option for treating some things .... I literally hated the skeletal look. I couldn't weight to be ME again!

[Qowiiyya]

Here is the issue, your posts exhibit the following symptoms taken from which gives information on all eating disorders and does not ask you how you "feel" and "think". These are warning signs that tell us when we are out of our scope of practice. It is not a diagnosis, but an indication that we are facing a client with an issue bigger and more severe than what we are qualified to deal with.

Dramatic weight loss. (water fasting to underweight status)

Preoccupation with weight, food, calories, fat grams, and dieting. (resistance to go beyond a small weight goal)

Refusal to eat certain foods, progressing to restrictions against whole categories of food (e.g. no carbohydrates, etc.). (your words are organic, mostly plants, plant proteins, organic meat a 2-3 time a week, good quantity of eggs, fish, only grains I eat is rice 2-3 time a week and every now and then when I feel naughty I have sprouted bread...(once a week) always within my macros, usually.)


Frequent comments about feeling “fat” or overweight despite weight loss. (you are low in weight, low in bmi, fighting your body, refusing to gain, comments on "softness" etc)

Anxiety about gaining weight or being “fat.” (consistent comments about keeping low weight and refusal to gain)

Denial of hunger. (refusal to gain weight, fighting body, refusal to eat larger amounts etc)


Consistent excuses to avoid mealtimes or situations involving food. (your very long winded replies to each person are full of excuses and "reasons" why you must avoid foods and avoid eating in a "normal" manner)

Excessive, rigid exercise regimen--despite weather, fatigue, illness, or injury, the need to “burn off” calories taken in. (evident in your posts)


In general, behaviors and attitudes indicating that weight loss, dieting, and control of food are becoming primary concerns.
Pretty much every time you reply, you show evidence of issues that are concerning. This is why you are getting the feedback you are.

Either your thinking patterns are so messed up that you are not able to see what you are writing, or you need to slow down and really think about what you are typing because you are not explaining yourself in a way which puts us at ease and you set off nearly every warning sign of an eating disorder.

Until you are able and willing to gain weight above what your "ideal" is, spend time working with a heavy lifting program, and willing to change your attitudes toward food and eating, you are not likely to get more info as most of us have experience with training people who set off these warning signs.

Hello there and thank you for your lovely long reply to my thread. I went to the link you sent and took the screening. Ironically it said in huge letters "HOW ARE YOU FEELING TODAY"...

I was brutally honest and sincere coz y'all are making me paranoid as hell.
My results were that I do NOT have a eating disorder but that I maybe at risk and that I should speak to my health care provider. I have spoken to them and although they don't advocate my -PAST - NOT PRESENT - water fast they knew I was well, safe, happy, and not ED... and had valid medical reasons to do so. They checked in on me, and I saw them before and after several times. It was all good, really. They are medically trained professionals. They respected my choices and my decisions and didn't LABEL ME...

Im not preoccupied with foods and diet. Im on a bodybuilding forum just asking why my butt went... I do have a whole other life... lol Sorry to break it to ya. lols

I do not *refuse* to eat certain foods... Processed food is not a food group, nor is white flour, white sugar, or alcohol. They are the only things I flat out refuse. That now makes me ED... then jews and muslims all have ED because they refuse pork, and alcohol. wow. Or that because I eat less GRAINS - (note I did not say CARBS) because of sensitivity....

I don't remember saying FAT at all.. I just like to be energetic and light. I think I have a better than average Fat composition compared to most average women... Im not after a miss universe priZE!!! My upper body is nice and firm the softness was just about my lower body in relation to running... Your really seeming a bit presumptuous and slightly leading towards attacking, TBH....

Denial of hunger? where'd you pull that one from? Refusal to gain? who told you that? I just said I was comfortable bulking to that weight and that I thought that was a good place to start cutting? seriously... this is a bit much what you getting at...

HOW do you KNOW what meals I avoid? I eat normally. I just am sensitive to grains... My replies are long winded due to presumptions I have ED... and I feel I should have the right to explain myself instead of being ACCUSED. lol I'm like totally WOWed out by the stuff you are saying there..like are you right?

I thought it was an appropriate time to cut, so I was trying to create a caloric deficit on purpose because I genuinely thought it was the correct and appropriate time to do so, not because Im ED...I thought 125 was a fine place to start cutting. Im sure half the people on here are on a cutting cycle trying to create a deficit and burn off calories... ARE THEY ALL ED TOO?

[Qowiiyya]

Again, you write a super long winded reply that doesn't really help any one.

If you don't have an ed, then you have been given practical advise on what to do.

1) get on a proven, heavy lifting program. Strong Curves is an excellent program for glutes that was suggested before.

2) eat to grow muscles, which you will need to get cals up to 2000 or more. This WILL help with energy levels. It also does not matter if all of this is organic, clean etc. 1400 on a cut is too low, and 1696 is not enough if you want more energy and to get bigger glutes. You can not maintain strength or go "up in weights" if the calories are not there to support the work.

3) add weight for at least 12 months at about a 1 pound per month gain. at 5'6 you can easily bulk to 130 - 140 lbs.

4)Cut out the cardio for the time being to maintain a healthy weight and energy level.

5) Stop worrying about bf%, it doesn't matter for anything.

6) if you want a lifters physique, then you must train and eat like a lifter. If you don't want to gain weight, then you are not training and eating like a lifter.

Dear RockAngel.

Thank you for not assuming I have ED and ceasing to continue to label me. That wasn't really a very nice feeling TBH.... just sayin....

1) Thank you for your practical advice, I really do want to lift heavier and will look into said programs as others had suggested

2) my macros for maintenance suggest 1696 (roughly) so a 20% increase would be 2035... isn't that a bit of a huge jump or is that fine?

3)If I gain at more than a pound per month, do I slow down?

4)No cardio? interval sprints or not even?

[rockangel]

Dear RockAngel.

Thank you for not assuming I have ED and ceasing to continue to label me. That wasn't really a very nice feeling TBH.... just sayin....

1) Thank you for your practical advice, I really do want to lift heavier and will look into said programs as others had suggested

2) my macros for maintenance suggest 1696 (roughly) so a 20% increase would be 2035... isn't that a bit of a huge jump or is that fine?

3)If I gain at more than a pound per month, do I slow down?

4)No cardio? interval sprints or not even?

I'm not labeling you, I'm pointing out how your writing sends up red flags. You get too defensive in "explaining" yourself and have muddled up and complicated the issue. Its pretty simple yet your instance of your preconceived notions isn't letting you learn at all. You have a lot of ideas that are wrong and you are arguing with everyone stating that your ideas are best. We do this for a living, so trust when we say, you are going about things all wrong and you need to let go and start your nutrition education over.

114 - 125 is not a good cutting weight for a female at 5'6. instance on these numbers will limit your gains and your physique. Like I stated before, a good place to get to BEFORE cutting is at least 130 - 140 maybe even higher because it depends on how you look and what your body is doing. If you are so "soft" and unhappy, then you need to build the muscle which REQUIRES you to eat more and gain weight. This is where a good trainer would come in to help you know when to continue lifting and when is a proper time to cut.

The macros you got are a starting point, you should be listening to your body and eat according to your goals. 2035 is a much better level, though you will need to add at some point.

Suggestions are generally to gain 1 -2 pounds per month, though you may see a bigger increase within the first month as glycogen and water fill up the cells. as a female, you are only going to gain at MOST 1 pound of muscle per month if you are lifting heavy and eating to support growth. 1 - 2 pounds is a good rate to keep the fat gains minimum while maximizing muscle.

And no, I would not suggest doing any cardio while looking to build muscle. It creates a calorie sink and you end up having to eat more to compensate. I would first get the lifting and nutrition on point before adding cardio into the program. Its more important to listen to your body and allow more recovery than to do cardio. besides, if you are lifting with intensity and limiting rest times, you will get your heart rate up anyways and your cardio health will be fine.

Again, if you want a lifters body, then eat and train like a lifter. Cardio is secondary to lifting and eating.

And yes, lots of people on here are cutting, Including myself. the difference is that non of us are trying to cut to an underweight status while being hell bent on following bad nutritional ideals and limiting our foods to arbitrary and random rules.

[megdaig]

I'm not labeling you, I'm pointing out how your writing sends up red flags. You get too defensive in "explaining" yourself and have muddled up and complicated the issue. Its pretty simple yet your instance of your preconceived notions isn't letting you learn at all. You have a lot of ideas that are wrong and you are arguing with everyone stating that your ideas are best. We do this for a living, so trust when we say, you are going about things all wrong and you need to let go and start your nutrition education over.

114 - 125 is not a good cutting weight for a female at 5'6. instance on these numbers will limit your gains and your physique. Like I stated before, a good place to get to BEFORE cutting is at least 130 - 140 maybe even higher because it depends on how you look and what your body is doing. If you are so "soft" and unhappy, then you need to build the muscle which REQUIRES you to eat more and gain weight. This is where a good trainer would come in to help you know when to continue lifting and when is a proper time to cut.

The macros you got are a starting point, you should be listening to your body and eat according to your goals. 2035 is a much better level, though you will need to add at some point.

Suggestions are generally to gain 1 -2 pounds per month, though you may see a bigger increase within the first month as glycogen and water fill up the cells. as a female, you are only going to gain at MOST 1 pound of muscle per month if you are lifting heavy and eating to support growth. 1 - 2 pounds is a good rate to keep the fat gains minimum while maximizing muscle.

And no, I would not suggest doing any cardio while looking to build muscle. It creates a calorie sink and you end up having to eat more to compensate. I would first get the lifting and nutrition on point before adding cardio into the program. Its more important to listen to your body and allow more recovery than to do cardio. besides, if you are lifting with intensity and limiting rest times, you will get your heart rate up anyways and your cardio health will be fine.

Again, if you want a lifters body, then eat and train like a lifter. Cardio is secondary to lifting and eating.

And yes, lots of people on here are cutting, Including myself. the difference is that non of us are trying to cut to an underweight status while being hell bent on following bad nutritional ideals and limiting our foods to arbitrary and random rules.

Solid advice from Rock Angel.


To give you perspective
I'm 5'6" and start cutting anywhere between 150-160# and cut down to 130-135# at the low end. That by no means is a low weight according to the BMI scale but FOR ME, that is an extremely low weight that is difficult and not safe to maintain for a long period of time.

Just goes to show you how the scale number doesn't matter when it's a LOOK that you want to achieve. Get the "I want to weigh X pounds" out of your head and take pictures, same pose, same lighting, same conditions and LOOK for progress.

[lchoward]

Again, you write a super long winded reply that doesn't really help any one.

If you don't have an ed, then you have been given practical advise on what to do.

1) get on a proven, heavy lifting program. Strong Curves is an excellent program for glutes that was suggested before.

2) eat to grow muscles, which you will need to get cals up to 2000 or more. This WILL help with energy levels. It also does not matter if all of this is organic, clean etc. 1400 on a cut is too low, and 1696 is not enough if you want more energy and to get bigger glutes. You can not maintain strength or go "up in weights" if the calories are not there to support the work.

3) add weight for at least 12 months at about a 1 pound per month gain. at 5'6 you can easily bulk to 130 - 140 lbs.

4)Cut out the cardio for the time being to maintain a healthy weight and energy level.

5) Stop worrying about bf%, it doesn't matter for anything.

6) if you want a lifters physique, then you must train and eat like a lifter. If you don't want to gain weight, then you are not training and eating like a lifter.

Rockangel pretty much hit the nail on the head here. This is a summary of what you need to be doing, OP.

Again, as a former ED, I'm not getting the vibes that you have an ED and I get your frustration. But you do have to realize that you're not really in the position for a successful cut. I'm glad you mentioned that you want to do a full bulk, and I understand your desires to wait on that. Most people don't do a bulk before bikini season, for instance! When you're ready to do that, I think you'll find a lot of support and help here. As for your continuing to cut right now, I think you'll continue to see that muscle loss.

Also, don't be afraid to go up on the weights a little more quickly and way down on reps. To achieve the body you want, your rep range should be around 10-12. If you're pulling off 40 reps, you need to be upping your weights. Dive in!

Don't write this forum off. You just made a poor first impression, and I think people here ran with what we see a lot. There are some good people here. More than that, there's an abundance of knowledge and resources. But it's easy to type a reply and forget there's a human being on the other end. Trust me, I went through it. It's true for most forums out there. They can be a brutal place. You have to develop some thick skin and pick out the helpful points amid the just plain criticism.

I think you're less fighting an ED right now and more fighting social norms and a lack of real understanding of how to do this. And I get that. Stick with it. Continue to learn. Be attentive of where you are getting your information and make sure it's reputable. Remember anyone can open up a blog or website these days and just about anyone can call their self a nutritionist. I'm not sure you've really been getting your information from reputable sources, and I would seriously consider the idea that everything you feel like you know could be wrong. I think you're seeing answers now more along the lines of what you want. Now you just have to be open-minded and accept them.

If you're happy with where you are now, I think you should keep it at maintenance. I certainly wouldn't cut any lower. You'll continue to see muscle loss. But start researching how to bulk, stay on these forums and see how others do it.

As for nutrition, I just know the science and research behind all of the GMO-free, non-processed, gluten-free stuff. So I could go on and on about that, but to each his own, and if you're happy with what you're eating, go for it. Just continue to make sure you're getting enough calories and watch your macros, as it sounds like you've been doing.

[Echo814]

Since you are into research, here are some sites to look into of professionals in this field that know their stuff.
http://www.alanaragonblog.com/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/
http://3dmusclejourney.com/
http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/

Alan Aragon has one of the best research reviews around and as far as nutrition goes is one of my top go tos for unbiased information. I've gotten a lot more skeptical and have learned to come to my own conclusions with information rather than follow blindly.

Lyle is currently writing two books on female specific diet and training. He has a few posts on his site which are sneak previews of some of the chapters. He has several pod casts that are excellent on it too.

Eric Helms has a pretty simplistic pyramid that cuts a lot of the BS out of diet and exercise with education and real work application to back it up.

Brad approaches training in a logical way and his posts have been educational to say the least.

I love keeping up on information, because in fitness and nutrition it is ever changing.

[LDARboyo]

The way OP types passive-aggressively really pisses me off.

Good luck with your stuff OP

[lchoward]

The way OP types passive-aggressively really pisses me off.

Good luck with your stuff OP

Well then she should fit in really well in these forums...

[kimm4]

The way OP types passive-aggressively really pisses me off.
Good luck with your stuff OP

It's getting to the point where I'm thinking troll...

[LunaLifts]

It's getting to the point where I'm thinking troll...

Yep, waaaay too many signs. All the obvious things that trolls know this forum responds to, insistence on ways despite repeated efforts to explain what's wrong. Hasn't accepted any advice given. Is super polite when replying no matter how blunt people are (most people who actually feel this way aren't letting it drag out this long, and get defensive). Repetitive strawman arguments.

It reads like someone playing games.

[itsagoodday]

Yep, waaaay too many signs. All the obvious things that trolls know this forum responds to, insistence on ways despite repeated efforts to explain what's wrong. Hasn't accepted any advice given. Is super polite when replying no matter how blunt people are (most people who actually feel this way aren't letting it drag out this long, and get defensive). Repetitive strawman arguments.

It reads like someone playing games.

And weirdly enough, OP strikes me as too intelligent to be making such consistently bad decisions.

[Qowiiyya]

@meg,
That sounds fair.
I can understand why, as from your pics you have some pretty serious muscle going on and I can imagin that would have to weigh something significant.

How does it feel to be 140-150 before you cut? Does it feel heavy for you? Do you feel slower? I've not been that weight (without carrying a person in my stomach, anyway) so I'm trying to put myself in those shoes.

And I can imagin that after a cut, you'd still have all the tremendous muscle with you, so 130 is quite a modest weight because having that. I can see that.

I guess it's not really about the exact number on the scale. I just still want to have energy and feel light, while being healthy weight, and I'm wondering how that will go for me in a long term bulk.

Thanks for the reply x

[Qowiiyya]

Since you are into research, here are some sites to look into of professionals in this field that know their stuff.


Alan Aragon has one of the best research reviews around and as far as nutrition goes is one of my top go tos for unbiased information. I've gotten a lot more skeptical and have learned to come to my own conclusions with information rather than follow blindly.

Lyle is currently writing two books on female specific diet and training. He has a few posts on his site which are sneak previews of some of the chapters. He has several pod casts that are excellent on it too.

Eric Helms has a pretty simplistic pyramid that cuts a lot of the BS out of diet and exercise with education and real work application to back it up.

Brad approaches training in a logical way and his posts have been educational to say the least.

I love keeping up on information, because in fitness and nutrition it is ever changing.

Thanks for the link I really appreciate them. I'll jump right in and start reading.

[Qowiiyya]

Again, as a former ED, I'm not getting the vibes that you have an ED and I get your frustration. But you do have to realize that you're not really in the position for a successful cut. I'm glad you mentioned that you want to do a full bulk, and I understand your desires to wait on that. Most people don't do a bulk before bikini season, for instance! When you're ready to do that, I think you'll find a lot of support and help here. As for your continuing to cut right now, I think you'll continue to see that muscle loss.

Also, don't be afraid to go up on the weights a little more quickly and way down on reps. To achieve the body you want, your rep range should be around 10-12. If you're pulling off 40 reps, you need to be upping your weights. Dive in!

Don't write this forum off. You just made a poor first impression, and I think people here ran with what we see a lot. There are some good people here. More than that, there's an abundance of knowledge and resources. But it's easy to type a reply and forget there's a human being on the other end. Trust me, I went through it. It's true for most forums out there. They can be a brutal place. You have to develop some thick skin and pick out the helpful points amid the just plain criticism.

I think you're less fighting an ED right now and more fighting social norms and a lack of real understanding of how to do this. And I get that. Stick with it. Continue to learn. Be attentive of where you are getting your information and make sure it's reputable. Remember anyone can open up a blog or website these days and just about anyone can call their self a nutritionist. I'm not sure you've really been getting your information from reputable sources, and I would seriously consider the idea that everything you feel like you know could be wrong. I think you're seeing answers now more along the lines of what you want. Now you just have to be open-minded and accept them.

If you're happy with where you are now, I think you should keep it at maintenance. I certainly wouldn't cut any lower. You'll continue to see muscle loss. But start researching how to bulk, stay on these forums and see how others do it.

As for nutrition, I just know the science and research behind all of the GMO-free, non-processed, gluten-free stuff. So I could go on and on about that, but to each his own, and if you're happy with what you're eating, go for it. Just continue to make sure you're getting enough calories and watch your macros, as it sounds like you've been doing.

Thank you so much for another thoughtful kind reply. People should take a page from your book.

Yes I have stopped in my tracks for the moment. I need to research, plan and strategise based on new info. So far I'm planning a bulk from late June onwards most likely to at least oct-dec sometime there. Right now I just need that latency and I've got a bit on to contend with. I may just keep a good solid maintainence till then and just do light/moderate workout. Is that right?

I do want to go up, but I want my form to stay A1 and I'm getting there, I mean I'm not going to get too far staying where I'm at. I'm doing 10 reps of 10kg+ bar on my bi curls and it's an ok challenge... I would like to do the same on my tri... With my squats/lunges I know I can be doing much more but just want to have good form... I will get it checked and then possibly go up in both soon. What do u think about training till failure?

This forum is really something else. I personally believe in honour, and that one should speak with respect decency, but even when I thank people as nicely as I can for their replies, explain my point, accept their advices I STILL get put down - accused of now a troll... Passive agressive, and having ED. Where's humanity these days? Maybe it's a cultural thing... I don't particularly like conjecture, but I have felt it necessary to explain my point of view to avoid being misconstrued, and jumped on. Lol.

There is a lot of great info here - but must it come with a nasty patronising tongue? You seem lovely, so do some others - caring kind and thoughtful with words. Others a real smack bang with their words... Maybe I'm too delicate for American/bodybuilding culture. Lol.

[Qowiiyya]

Well then she should fit in really well in these forums...

Thanks ichoward... I actually specifically came to a FEMALE FORUM as I didn't want to have any male input. If this female forum is just open slather to males the what's the point of a female forum?

[Qowiiyya]

It's getting to the point where I'm thinking troll...

I'm not sure on what premise that would be based, for what benefit to be gained, that one would do that. I'm obviously taking time to read and reply to every post to understand better. Why would someone take the time to do that unless they were genuine. Srsly!

[Qowiiyya]

Yep, waaaay too many signs. All the obvious things that trolls know this forum responds to, insistence on ways despite repeated efforts to explain what's wrong. Hasn't accepted any advice given. Is super polite when replying no matter how blunt people are (most people who actually feel this way aren't letting it drag out this long, and get defensive). Repetitive strawman arguments.

It reads like someone playing games.

Pardon me, but that is not the case at all.

Being polite is how I am genuinely, why wouldn't I be grateful that strangers take their own time to give advice and feedback. On that note, I have not once rejected anyone's ideas once but taken it all on board, but just reiterated my point, in case I needed to clarify. At the same token, advice doesn't have to come with a condescending tone and is just as easily imparted with graceful diplomacy in a firm, tactful yet kind way. If people are blunt to me, why should I retaliate with bluntness. I'm not that person. I don't advocate that why should I respond to others in that way?

My arguments (if that is what you like to call them) are just what I thought I was doing right. With new education those views change. What I'm not okay with is presumptions that I'm doing things I'm NOT doing - things I know aren't healthy.

Maybe you and others should put your selves in other peoples shoes and try to treat people how you would like to be treated.

[Qowiiyya]

And weirdly enough, OP strikes me as too intelligent to be making such consistently bad decisions.

Itsagoodday
Evidently I'm not that intelligent lol.

No, I believe everyone has been blessed with some intellect, but knowledge comes with experience,,, but wisdoms is something that is innate.

I can't really reiterate this more: I genuinely thought what I was doing WAS THE CORRECT WAY.... Why would I go on a forums touting incorrect ways only to get blasted at... I thought that I was going fine and just wanted to know why my butt was getting softer... But obviously I needed to fine time my plan.

All the same, I do appreciate your helpful feedback x

[kimm4]

Yep, waaaay too many signs. All the obvious things that trolls know this forum responds to, insistence on ways despite repeated efforts to explain what's wrong. Hasn't accepted any advice given. Is super polite when replying no matter how blunt people are (most people who actually feel this way aren't letting it drag out this long, and get defensive). Repetitive strawman arguments.

It reads like someone playing games.

Yep pure fuggin nonsense...

*yawns*

[itsagoodday]

No, I believe everyone has been blessed with some intellect, but knowledge comes with experience,,, but wisdoms is something that is innate.

I can't really reiterate this more: I genuinely thought what I was doing WAS THE CORRECT WAY....

OK, here's an example of one of the things that I don't get with you. You do seem to be intelligent, it really should have been obvious that some of your ideas were very much NOT the correct way. And I don't think it's the kind of thing you need to learn from experience, a little bit of basic thinking in advance would have worked just fine.

I calculated my macros at 1696 cals, and I have cut to 1484 and now even to BMR 1320

You figured out your BMR to be 1320. BMR is the minimum number of calories needed for your body to survive in a vegetative, inactive state. If you researched what a BMR is, then you should also understand why it would be a bad idea to eat only 1320.

I calculated that every second day I am working out and using around 800-1300 calories in my exercise...

And you're trying to burn up to 1300 calories when you exercise. So you're essentially trying to bring your net calories all the way down to at or near zero on those days. You're not seeing where that would be a problem?

You have admitted that you recently came off a fast for medical reasons. When you originally stated it, people were under the impression that it under a doctor's recommendation. You later admitted that it was a self-administered homeopathic remedy. I'm not going to argue for or against homeopathy. But aren't you attempting, through a combination of exceedingly low calories and high levels of exercise, to push yourself back into another net zero calorie fasted state???

You argue that you love food, you're great with nutrition, you listen to your body and give it what it needs. If any those things were true, you would have done none of the things listed above. I think that goes beyond "oops, I guess I was a little off because I hadn't learned that yet". Either you are an intelligent person whose judgement is clouded through no fault of her own (ie. eating disorder or other disordered thinking), or you are not what you are portraying yourself to be.

Nobody here looks down on people with eating disorders, and nobody here dislikes you or is trying to belittle you, regardless of what issues you do or don't have. But when you see someone running repeatedly head first into a brick wall, trying to justify why it occurred, and then stating that they have every intention of continuing to do it... shouldn't people say something?

[Qowiiyya]

OK, here's an example of one of the things that I don't get with you. You do seem to be intelligent, it really should have been obvious that some of your ideas were very much NOT the correct way. And I don't think it's the kind of thing you need to learn from experience, a little bit of basic thinking in advance would have worked just fine.



You figured out your BMR to be 1320. BMR is the minimum number of calories needed for your body to survive in a vegetative, inactive state. If you researched what a BMR is, then you should also understand why it would be a bad idea to eat only 1320.



And you're trying to burn up to 1300 calories when you exercise. So you're essentially trying to bring your net calories all the way down to at or near zero on those days. You're not seeing where that would be a problem?

You have admitted that you recently came off a fast for medical reasons. When you originally stated it, people were under the impression that it under a doctor's recommendation. You later admitted that it was a self-administered homeopathic remedy. I'm not going to argue for or against homeopathy. But aren't you attempting, through a combination of exceedingly low calories and high levels of exercise, to push yourself back into another net zero calorie fasted state???

You argue that you love food, you're great with nutrition, you listen to your body and give it what it needs. If any those things were true, you would have done none of the things listed above. I think that goes beyond "oops, I guess I was a little off because I hadn't learned that yet". Either you are an intelligent person whose judgement is clouded through no fault of her own (ie. eating disorder or other disordered thinking), or you are not what you are portraying yourself to be.

Nobody here looks down on people with eating disorders, and nobody here dislikes you or is trying to belittle you, regardless of what issues you do or don't have. But when you see someone running repeatedly head first into a brick wall, trying to justify why it occurred, and then stating that they have every intention of continuing to do it... shouldn't people say something?

My fast was a naturopathic based one to avoid a nasty surgery that the medical profession admit does more harm than good. My doctors, who are both pretty amazing women understand that the medical profession doesn't have all the answers, and sometimes nature taking it's corse can do good. But let's not debate about it, it's contentious. I'm not "great" with nutrition, I'm just not into processed stuff. If I really want a doughnut/croissant/pie I will wait a bit and make my own at home. Obviously not very often. In between times I just try not to react to foods. For eg, if I eat too late at night, esp the wrong thing, I get puffy face and congested. It's just trying to stick to what works for me.

A 20% cut is what many recommend. I read an article the other day that stated if after a week of not seeing result on you cut, try a few days bmr to kick the metabolism into gear and then proceed with usual 20%. It wasn't like a prolonged circumstance, I was just following the advice of an article I read. Thought I'd try it as I was confused why upper body stayed firm and lower body lost definition, but yet I gained - all painting strange conflicting results.

Thought worth a try for a few days then back to normal 20% cut.

That's when I posted here because I was at odds with what was happening. I was never trying to starve myself by exhausting my calories via working out... CLEARLY it didn't EVER OCCUR as my weight only increased... Couldn't have happened if I exercises it all off.

I was working out and estimating the calories burned. Maybe I'm wrong but I calculated my runs were burning about 8.5 cals per minute, and my weights and workout were quite a bit under that per min workout... Let's say 6 cals/min... I thought maybe my calculations are wayyyy out and I'm doing something wrong seeing as I was putting on weight (not what you want in a cut) so I would just increase my exercise to see if it effected it. It didn't. Still gained kg.. So I'd increase again. Weight was still up. Not in a bad way, but the opposite of what I thought was supposed to happen.
I just realised something wasn't adding up so I wrote on the forum.

I can try and find the link to the article that says if your cut isn't working try bmr for a few days to kick start it. I thought that must have been a common method.
I had also read on here that every now and then to give the metabolism a kick, you can do like a day or two of extra hard workouts, then kick back down to normal just to get things started. That's what I was trying to do. It's not my own insane method, I had actually read this - some even off this site I'm sure of it!

[rockangel]

I honestly would like to see where you are getting your info from because it sounds horrid.

What happens when you do stupid things like water fasting which takes your body to an unhealthy weight level is that you have primed the body to regain weight rapidly and especially, fat. Whenever you do something extreme to the body, like a pendulum, it swings back the other way and takes things to the opposite extreme.

I wont argue with the whole "naturalness" of what you did, nor will I argue if it was correct. But what you cant argue is that it was extreme.

So now you are trying once again to do extreme things that make no sense based off some junk you read off the internet. If you are going to use the internet, make sure your sources are credible. Even bodybuilding.com isn't the best place to get accurate info. This is a supplement site first and foremost. Everything they do is to boost sales.

Now, you are basing your excercies off of 8 or 6 cals per minute. DON'T. Why? because you will never sustain 8 or even 6 cals per minute for long bouts of exercise. Typically its something like 3 then a 6 maybe an 8 if you are pushing really hard but then you go back down to a 3 for recovery. Either way, its a bad idea to try to worry about how many cals you burn off in exercise anyways. To top that off, exercise is NOT about burning off calories. Every exercises, rep, set has a place in a program for a reason and should follow what your goal is. If your goal was to lose weight, thn you don't eat at bmr and then try to burn a bunch off through exercise.

For the gaining, you stated that you were not counting macros and just counting protein and guessing on everything else. Is this the truth???

Because if it is then when you eat a larger amount of carbs from day to day or week to week, you will see odd weight fluctuations.

Another issue is "increasing exercise" and doing a "extra hard workout on a day or 2" could be causing inflammation (cause all exercise creates inflammation) and that creates water retention which creates weight fluctuations.

Stop having knee jerk reactions to the scale, get smart about exercises, and listen to your body instead of the scale.

When you keep changing macros, exercise intensities, frequencies, volumes, and everything about your routines based on what one day or one weeks scale readings, then yeah, your gonna have a bad time.

The body needs consistency and time more than anything and you have given it neither.

[megdaig]

Ok OP... here's the deal...

Keep doing what you are doing, and get the same results you've always gotten...

...OR...

Take the advice and change your methods and get different and possibly better results.

Stop trying to justify what you are and have been doing and make the change stat or you'll be here a year later wondering why you aren't making any progress.

[Qowiiyya]

I honestly would like to see where you are getting your info from because it sounds horrid.

What happens when you do stupid things like water fasting which takes your body to an unhealthy weight level is that you have primed the body to regain weight rapidly and especially, fat. Whenever you do something extreme to the body, like a pendulum, it swings back the other way and takes things to the opposite extreme.

I wont argue with the whole "naturalness" of what you did, nor will I argue if it was correct. But what you cant argue is that it was extreme.

So now you are trying once again to do extreme things that make no sense based off some junk you read off the internet. If you are going to use the internet, make sure your sources are credible. Even bodybuilding.com isn't the best place to get accurate info. This is a supplement site first and foremost. Everything they do is to boost sales.

Now, you are basing your excercies off of 8 or 6 cals per minute. DON'T. Why? because you will never sustain 8 or even 6 cals per minute for long bouts of exercise. Typically its something like 3 then a 6 maybe an 8 if you are pushing really hard but then you go back down to a 3 for recovery. Either way, its a bad idea to try to worry about how many cals you burn off in exercise anyways. To top that off, exercise is NOT about burning off calories. Every exercises, rep, set has a place in a program for a reason and should follow what your goal is. If your goal was to lose weight, thn you don't eat at bmr and then try to burn a bunch off through exercise.

For the gaining, you stated that you were not counting macros and just counting protein and guessing on everything else. Is this the truth???

Because if it is then when you eat a larger amount of carbs from day to day or week to week, you will see odd weight fluctuations.

Another issue is "increasing exercise" and doing a "extra hard workout on a day or 2" could be causing inflammation (cause all exercise creates inflammation) and that creates water retention which creates weight fluctuations.

Stop having knee jerk reactions to the scale, get smart about exercises, and listen to your body instead of the scale.

When you keep changing macros, exercise intensities, frequencies, volumes, and everything about your routines based on what one day or one weeks scale readings, then yeah, your gonna have a bad time.

The body needs consistency and time more than anything and you have given it neither.

Hello RockAngle, Thank you for the reply, please pardon my delay in response as I had some academic work to catch up on the last few days.
Yes, probably not the most sound advice. I did check my bookmarks and history and I was able to find some of the sites, and some I wasn't. Much of it was eclectic, and some spoke of the concepts of "supersets" and giving your muscles a bit of a shock every six weeks, also with cardio. Some of it was defs from here. I had a bit of a google around but couldn't find the exact ones (as I never set out to search for it, just stumbled over it while learning).
here (Im pretty sure in some of the male stickies about plateau or something to break though...)are but some... but I'm sure and 100% certain it was a concept taken from a number of sites recommending a similar concepts so I took it and ran with it. I cannot post links as Im a nube here but I can give website names
(gymgoal, getyouintoshape.worldpress,) - and eating a BMR was on either 'acaloriecounter' or 'aworkoutplan' - both by the same author, yet I have searched on both site again for like 2 hours trying to find it again... the navigation on those sites is a bit lame.

In relation to gaining weight after my fast... Quite the opposite. I had lots of trouble and was staying thinner despite eating 3000cals and got sick a few times trying to gain. Thank God my hub and doctors were right there behind me helping me out. From new year onwards I gained well and have ever since. Just needed time. I do agree, dear, it was very extreme... but so is surgery that doesn't work, but actually makes the problem worse. Who would fast if not for medical reasons except those sad pro-ana people? I don't advise it unless you actually have to, even then - think twice.

With regards to cals burning. I have no idea. There are too many variables... I just tried to look into it when I was getting odd results but who really knows how much an individual burns. Its a ballpark guess at best. But I was just trying to see what - if any deficit I had seeing as I was gaining, and getting less definition in the lower body... I didn't really try to AIM per se for that.

Eating at BMR/High cardio was, as I said a miseducated temporary measure. wasn't really a normal thing I had been doing since early jan.

For my macros - I counted cals and made sure within those calories I was getting my proteins and just making sure everything fit (fat/ carbs) - but was pretty good with making sure my proteins were on target. If I was low in protein I would make sure I topped up with 3-5 eggs or a green protein drink to make sure - trying to stay within cal budget. I would obviously know if I had too much fat or carbs as I would be going over my cals...so I just tried to keep within that range. but generally the same, like maybe a few serves of carbs a day: a bowl of oats, a serve of rice or something... I'd never really vary too much.. Fat was similar story. not too greatly varying.

I really do think you are on to something with this inflation thing. It very well could be water that my cells are taking in and not letting out, to try and heal - like water retention. That would certainly give a softer defintion and increase weight... and I was super thirsty more than usual after workouts. I just thought because it was a heatwave...

I have purposely taken a week off everything now, no workouts, no weight - not even counting cals., and hopefully I will just strategies my next move a bit more., Been extra busy with academic reports etc, so its a good latency to give my body a break and regroup.... I am hating not working out and am eager to get back into it over the next 24-72 hours.

I really think that inflammation thing solved the riddle that was plaguing me. Yes I guess one can get a bit caught up in scale thing. but It was also my noticing the lack of definition. Oh well back to the old drawing board for me

I really do appreciate your words and advice, even if they do come with a bit of a stern harsh tone, I guess its all good to contemplate xx tnx

[Qowiiyya]

Ok OP... here's the deal...

Keep doing what you are doing, and get the same results you've always gotten...

...OR...

Take the advice and change your methods and get different and possibly better results.

Stop trying to justify what you are and have been doing and make the change stat or you'll be here a year later wondering why you aren't making any progress.

Dear meg, thanks for your reply/feedback. Pardon the delay in reply I had been caught up.

Yes, I had, up until say, feb 11th seen great results, I was gaining, getting stronger, and seeing some lovely results.. then It went a bit haywire when I decided to overtrain.

Lots of great advice to contemplate and I am very grateful for it all. As I said to Rockangel lots to think about and plan, going back to the drawing board before I again embark on working out.
Haven't counted cals or trained in any way for a week. Really thinking things through. Hopefully will get to something over the next day or so. I am very eager to do so.

Nope not justifying any mistakes, just explaining how they may have come about - as Im not ED, or a halfwitted person, just genuine mistakes...

Looking forward to the future.

appreciate your words and advices.
bless u

[Qowiiyya]

For the gaining, you stated that you were not counting macros and just counting protein and guessing on everything else. Is this the truth???

Because if it is then when you eat a larger amount of carbs from day to day or week to week, you will see odd weight fluctuations.

Another issue is "increasing exercise" and doing a "extra hard workout on a day or 2" could be causing inflammation (cause all exercise creates inflammation) and that creates water retention which creates weight fluctuations.

Stop having knee jerk reactions to the scale, get smart about exercises, and listen to your body instead of the scale.

When you keep changing macros, exercise intensities, frequencies, volumes, and everything about your routines based on what one day or one weeks scale readings, then yeah, your gonna have a bad time.

The body needs consistency and time more than anything and you have given it neither.

Also, RockAngel,

I wanted to ask you a question...

Is this normal...

When I don't work out, and just eat as per usual, not specifically counting calories, but probably eating around 1600 -2000 cals or less, usually around 1750 at good guess , I actually feel sick and bloated. I feel heavy. Is this a reaction to not working out? Its awful. I took the week off to a) strategies,
b) give my body a bit of a reload/break
c) I had heaps of academic work that needed doing requiring lots of time

But I feel eww. My body feels like it can't take the sedentary thing, and it feels like the food is sitting in me like a sack of bricks. Im so not used to it. Its not ed.. I look very much "FULL" and not that I have jumped on my scales, but I'm sure they would show.

Should I eat at maintenance when not training (carb cycling)?

I do actually feel unwell, generally, while on my week off. Like stagnant, sore tummy, bloated... Whats with that? I feel like taking a mini break has made me not digest my food or something
Its not like I have been binging at all.. But it makes me feel like I need to REALLY work out, and get moving to rid myself of this sore, bloated totally stuffed feeling.

Whats your take (no Im not eD!!)

[rockangel]

Also, RockAngel,

I wanted to ask you a question...

Is this normal...

When I don't work out, and just eat as per usual, not specifically counting calories, but probably eating around 1600 -2000 cals or less, usually around 1750 at good guess , I actually feel sick and bloated. I feel heavy. Is this a reaction to not working out? Its awful. I took the week off to a) strategies,
b) give my body a bit of a reload/break
c) I had heaps of academic work that needed doing requiring lots of time

But I feel eww. My body feels like it can't take the sedentary thing, and it feels like the food is sitting in me like a sack of bricks. Im so not used to it. Its not ed.. I look very much "FULL" and not that I have jumped on my scales, but I'm sure they would show.

Should I eat at maintenance when not training (carb cycling)?

I do actually feel unwell, generally, while on my week off. Like stagnant, sore tummy, bloated... Whats with that? I feel like taking a mini break has made me not digest my food or something
Its not like I have been binging at all.. But it makes me feel like I need to REALLY work out, and get moving to rid myself of this sore, bloated totally stuffed feeling.

Whats your take (no Im not eD!!)

I am not a doctor. I don't know all of what is going on with you, and you haven't made a whole lot clear in this thread.

However, my instincts say that you haven't spent any time letting your body recover and you jump from one extreme to the next, reacting to every little thing rather than being consistent. 1 week is literally nothing.

You need to be eating at a consistent level for more than a week. You are looking at months of consistently hitting macros. Stop trying to overanalyze every little piece and just let your body BE without forcing it to DO something. Stop looking at how you look. I am not worried about the level of your definition or if your stomach looks a little more bloated than last week. THOSE ARE DISORDERED BEHAVIORS. Recognize the behavior and work to change it.

My guess is that you have gastro issues because of the extreme things you do. Meaning that your body now has to learn to deal with the new inputs and yes it will be uncomfortable for a bit until your body learns what to do with the extra cals and all. Usually it takes a week or 2 and then it settles down. It could be longer for you, depending on what all you have been doing and what you continue to do now. You don't need to go "work it off"....

I don't think your body has an issue with you being sedentary, I think it has an issue because you just never let it be.

My suggestion still stands:

Get on a proven lifting program.

Eat at maintenance consistently NO MATTER WHAT THE SCALE DOES, NO MATTER WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE, Do not carb cycle, just consistent eating... that's all.

Once you can do that, then begin upping cals and building muscle

Skip cardio until nutrition and training are on point.

This is going to take a lot of time, as in MONTHS.... stop forcing your body to do things and start working with your body. If you cant do that, then you need to seek in person help that can work with you on an ongoing basis so they can monitor your behavior and actions to help you learn how to do the above.

I do not know how to lay it out any more simply than that for you. Those are the steps you need to take. Its not complicated and its pretty much the advice given to any newb.

Get consistent, stop worrying about details that don't matter, follow the simple steps, and let your body sort itself out. That's all.

[Qowiiyya]

I am not a doctor. I don't know all of what is going on with you, and you haven't made a whole lot clear in this thread.

However, my instincts say that you haven't spent any time letting your body recover and you jump from one extreme to the next, reacting to every little thing rather than being consistent. 1 week is literally nothing.

You need to be eating at a consistent level for more than a week. You are looking at months of consistently hitting macros. Stop trying to overanalyze every little piece and just let your body BE without forcing it to DO something. Stop looking at how you look. I am not worried about the level of your definition or if your stomach looks a little more bloated than last week. THOSE ARE DISORDERED BEHAVIORS. Recognize the behavior and work to change it.

My guess is that you have gastro issues because of the extreme things you do. Meaning that your body now has to learn to deal with the new inputs and yes it will be uncomfortable for a bit until your body learns what to do with the extra cals and all. Usually it takes a week or 2 and then it settles down. It could be longer for you, depending on what all you have been doing and what you continue to do now. You don't need to go "work it off"....

I don't think your body has an issue with you being sedentary, I think it has an issue because you just never let it be.

My suggestion still stands:

Get on a proven lifting program.

Eat at maintenance consistently NO MATTER WHAT THE SCALE DOES, NO MATTER WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE, Do not carb cycle, just consistent eating... that's all.

Once you can do that, then begin upping cals and building muscle

Skip cardio until nutrition and training are on point.

This is going to take a lot of time, as in MONTHS.... stop forcing your body to do things and start working with your body. If you cant do that, then you need to seek in person help that can work with you on an ongoing basis so they can monitor your behavior and actions to help you learn how to do the above.

I do not know how to lay it out any more simply than that for you. Those are the steps you need to take. Its not complicated and its pretty much the advice given to any newb.

Get consistent, stop worrying about details that don't matter, follow the simple steps, and let your body sort itself out. That's all.

Hmm. thanks for that> I appreciate it.

I also just read on an article on here that if you don't drink enough water your body holds onto it and makes you bloated.. So maybe I should drink more water and see if it helps too. Ya, for sure - consistency is great.

xx