taken everyday or just pre workout?
the studies ive seen state that they took it everyday for 8 weeks. lifting 3 times a week
would you see the same gains just using it pre workout?
thoughts?
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Thread: phosphatidic acid
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09-26-2014, 08:51 PM #1
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09-26-2014, 09:17 PM #2
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This http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/11/1/29 concluded:
"Oral PA administration is capable of enhancing the anabolic effects of resistance training and contributes to muscle accretion over time"
I'm no expert on the MOA though.My secret? Texting between sets.
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09-26-2014, 09:55 PM #3
How many days per week you train? If its 5+ maybe you could get away with skipping day-off doses...not sure Id personally want to risk jeopardising efficacy myself, though. Especially early on when youre still non-saturated (low frequency dosing may lengthen time-to-saturation); maybe once youre saturated you could get away with low frequency dosing (but how long to saturate...*shrug*)
Olympus Labs
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09-26-2014, 11:33 PM #4
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09-27-2014, 07:35 AM #5
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09-27-2014, 07:36 AM #6
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09-27-2014, 09:07 AM #7
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09-27-2014, 09:20 AM #8
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09-27-2014, 09:39 AM #9
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Dr. Wilson has previously done a study (not published but he has mentioned it a few times) on PA with sedentary people. The PA did nothing basically so physical stimulus is needed for it to work.
Going by that, it's very likely the way supplemental PA works is by converting to LPA which then triggers ERK which leads to mTOR stimulation. This may explain why LPA had similar effects on mTOR as well as PS (PS metabolizes to LPA). So preworkout only dosing probably works as long as you have the adequate physical stimulus.
Cliff notes: Based on how LPA, PS, PA all have similar acute stimulation of mTOR, it's likely supplemented PA is going down the ERK route. Based on a mice study, it appears that during adequate physical stimulus, the enzyme required to convert PS and PA to LPA are present extracellularly but typical this enzyme does not appear extracellularly (thus the physical stimulus is needed for supplemental PA to work). This also explains why it's noted that you don't actually want the PA to easily get incorporated into the phospholipids in the cell membranes as that won't effect ERK the way extracellular PA might. Plus intracellular PA is abundant when you exercise (phospho choline is converted to PA, your can't increase intracellular levels of phospho choline though, it appears to be highly regulated in the body so even if you supplement with phospho choline, it's most likely not going to do what you want it to do).Completed Logs & Reviews:
Clear Muscle Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=161906833&p=1244983053#post1244983053
"Now that you've got a basic degree of strength you can now proceed with success onto a bodybuilding type program - which I am not experienced in providing. You've exceeded what I focus on, and that is beginner strength gains." - Mark Rippetoe
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09-27-2014, 09:47 AM #10
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09-27-2014, 10:07 AM #11
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I've noticed my cliff notes are longer than the two paragraphs preceding it combined. LoL.
Completed Logs & Reviews:
Clear Muscle Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=161906833&p=1244983053#post1244983053
"Now that you've got a basic degree of strength you can now proceed with success onto a bodybuilding type program - which I am not experienced in providing. You've exceeded what I focus on, and that is beginner strength gains." - Mark Rippetoe
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09-27-2014, 10:18 AM #12
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09-27-2014, 10:21 AM #13
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09-27-2014, 10:23 AM #14
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Just copypasta from the link "We have previously examined the absorption kinetics of 1.5 g PA and observed an increase in plasma concentration after 30 minutes. PA concentrations appear to plateau between 1 and 3 hours following ingestion while peaking at 3 hours following ingestion. After 7 hours, PA concentrations remained elevated. In addition, LPA demonstrated a bimodal absorption kinetic with plasma concentration peaking at 1 hour, returning to baseline at 2 hours, and peaking again at 3 hours" Which cites http://www.jissn.com/content/10/S1/P22 at it's source. So I'm guessing a single dose would work even though that is based on 1.5g as opposed to the 750mg in King.
My secret? Texting between sets.
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09-27-2014, 10:27 AM #15
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09-27-2014, 11:19 AM #16
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09-27-2014, 11:28 AM #17
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The stuff doesn't appear to do so in any impactful manner. Iirc, they blocked ERK and lo and behold, the PA didn't increase protein synthesis.
In other words, from what I've looked into, extracellular PA pretty much stays extracellular for the most part.
As mentioned above, PA levels do appear to stay elevated for upwards of 7 hours. This kind of hints at how the stuff doesn't really get absorbed into cells well.Last edited by kissdadookie; 09-27-2014 at 11:35 AM.
Completed Logs & Reviews:
Clear Muscle Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=161906833&p=1244983053#post1244983053
"Now that you've got a basic degree of strength you can now proceed with success onto a bodybuilding type program - which I am not experienced in providing. You've exceeded what I focus on, and that is beginner strength gains." - Mark Rippetoe
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09-27-2014, 01:32 PM #18
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09-27-2014, 02:00 PM #19
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09-27-2014, 02:09 PM #20
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Doesn't look like it.
To clarify, if PA supplementation was to increase intracellular PA, the study with sedentary people would have shown PA doing something noticeable since intracellular PA iirc acts on mTOR independent from the physical stimulus being present (intracellular PA should mimick what happens when you have physical stimulus). However, we still need physical stimulus for intracellular PA to work because it's the physical stimulus that produces the PA (by using phospho choline), there's very little of it in the phospholipids of muscle cell.
Theoretically if you want to increase intracellular PA, it would make sense to increase phospho choline in the phospholipids of muscle cells to provide substrate for making PA during exercise, but supposedly phospho choline levels are highly regulated so supplementing phospho choline will not increase it in muscle cells the way we would want it to.Last edited by kissdadookie; 09-27-2014 at 02:22 PM.
Completed Logs & Reviews:
Clear Muscle Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=161906833&p=1244983053#post1244983053
"Now that you've got a basic degree of strength you can now proceed with success onto a bodybuilding type program - which I am not experienced in providing. You've exceeded what I focus on, and that is beginner strength gains." - Mark Rippetoe
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09-27-2014, 03:44 PM #21
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09-27-2014, 06:37 PM #22
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09-27-2014, 06:42 PM #23
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09-27-2014, 08:04 PM #24
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09-27-2014, 08:07 PM #25
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09-27-2014, 08:36 PM #26
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09-27-2014, 09:06 PM #27
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09-27-2014, 11:40 PM #28
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09-28-2014, 04:29 AM #29
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09-28-2014, 06:56 AM #30
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