Christians, is homosexuality a choice?

[Austanian]

I won't argue that we learn stuff and pick it up as we get older and those experiences shape and mold who we are. My question is what prompted your initial sexual orientation? Was that a choice or did you just realize that certain things turned you on? The conditioning talk is good stuff and I get what you're saying, but my issue is with a person's initial sexual orientation. Somewhere along the way we all discovered what gave us a hard on, but none of us chose what made our sticker peck out. I get that those things may change as you get older and your choices will influence that, but initially I don't buy that it was a conscious decision by anyone.

I was conditioned from the moment I was born.

Boys do this girls do this.
Gay sex is bad.
Sex before marriage is bad.

I liked girls from the moment prepuberty started to happen to me. However, by that point I was already socially conditioned to know that was what I was suppose to feel.

What if my parents had told me that you have sex with your bros and till you get married and then have sex with the girls... (Iraq and Afghanistan that chit happens a lot).

Truthfully, humans are terrible test subjects because you can not isolate variables. The best we can do is look at our close relatives (chimps) and see what they do. Gay sex happens, but are they really gay or just bisexual?

Logically if there was a pure "gay" gene the gene would die out because that gene would not be passed on.

We do know people will do what stimulates pleasure centers. Blowing your load regardless of the place does this.

[WormyJackal]

Why ask Christians?

[zmcdole]

In my opinion, which for all intents and purposes is worthless, you are born a man, with biological desires toward women. Through cultural and environmental stimuli, such as conditioning, you become sexually attracted to different things. But it would be like comparing someone who likes dom vs sub. That person was not born that way, they grew to enjoy those things. Or to see them in a certain way.

But they could choose to change their perspective. Everyone knows people change their perspectives on things all the time. I don't understand how people think that is any different than sexual preferences.

fair enough. I can see how culture and environment could cause someone to be stimulated by certain things. I also know that there are people out there who were in environments and cultures that should have conditioned them to be hetero yet they're gay. Why is that? I don't think anyone knows.

I'll also add that as a young impressionable child you don't have a lot of control over your environment or culture. You're born where you're born and your parents have a huge impact on what you see, who you're around, etc. That makes it pretty hard for you to be in control of your own sexual orientation. I'm not saying that the porn video that your buddy showed you at the sleepover you went to when you were 12 didn't impact you, but overall you're at the mercy of stuff you can't control.

Here's my issue with changing your sexual preferences in regards to male or female. Like you said you're born one way and you should have the instincts to pursue the opposite sex. That's a pretty strong biological instinct. In my opinion it would take a lot of work to reverse your biological instinct. Sure people may change as they age and the experiences they go through in life will ultimately be responsible for those changes. I've experienced stuff like this as well although I'm still hetero. I do things now with my wife that I wouldn't have considered before. Is it wrong to assume that most people stick with their original sexual orientation? I read recently that there is a % of people who's sexual orientation changes. Is there a stat for that?

My perspective on things in politics, sports, education, etc changes all the time. That stuff is 100% learned so it makes sense your perspective on that stuff would change over time. I don't think changing your perspective on sexual orientation is as easy as you say. The following link provides quite a bit of info supporting the ineffectiveness of therapy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy

With that said if your sexual orientation were determined by things as simple as environment, culture, and conditioning, therapy would be a lot more successful. However, it's not. That tells me that your sexual orientation is determined my a lot of things with some of those things being very deeply rooted and unchangeable in most cases. I'll also stick to my guns and say that you don't choose your sexual orientation and also I'm still quite confident it's possible to just be born that way. If you were born one way and you were influenced to change, then it shouldn't be too hard to get back to your natural instincts. Natural instincts are also very difficult to change with further supports the possibility of being born attracted to the same sex.

Oh and it's certainly possible to find fabricated studies within biased sources: http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...sters-johnson/

this link: http://www.livescience.com/25082-gay...apy-facts.html not only says that conversion therapy isn't effective and that there have been people who've lied about it's effectiveness, but it also has no professional standards or guidelines.

[zmcdole]

I was conditioned from the moment I was born.

Boys do this girls do this.
Gay sex is bad.
Sex before marriage is bad.

I liked girls from the moment prepuberty started to happen to me. However, by that point I was already socially conditioned to know that was what I was suppose to feel.

What if my parents had told me that you have sex with your bros and till you get married and then have sex with the girls... (Iraq and Afghanistan that chit happens a lot).

Truthfully, humans are terrible test subjects because you can not isolate variables. The best we can do is look at our close relatives (chimps) and see what they do. Gay sex happens, but are they really gay or just bisexual?

Logically if there was a pure "gay" gene the gene would die out because that gene would not be passed on.

We do know people will do what stimulates pleasure centers. Blowing your load regardless of the place does this.

This kind of supports my point. Very few people are directly taught to be homosexual. Sure it happens. Crazy **** happens and there's nothing new under the sun, but I think we can both agree that a HUGE % of young children are taught that boys have a penis and girls have a vagina for a reason and they're meant to eventually go together. Like Podunks said we're born men and our natural instinct should be to procreate by pursuing women and mating with them. That's nature. Without that instinct the human race would have come and gone a long time ago. With that said, ones sexual orientation is deeply rooted. While conditioning, environment, and or culture may have an impact, you are what you are largely based on your makeup as you developed. We all knOw stuff messes up as we develop from time to time.

[Fiyero]

Being attracted to men is a mental illness not a choice, but engaging in homosexual acts is a choice.

Should they be free to do it? Sure, I don't care, but God has punished the gay community with HIV.

75% of all HIV is spread through heterosexual transmission worldwide. Apparently God has pretty bad aim.

[CHCL]

So then you were never a Christian to begin with.

When in the world did a Catholic not become a Christian? Anyone and everyone can trace it back to Jesus Christ.

Indeed. I was raised a Catholic my entire life, attended Mass every Sunday, took Communion, and received Confirmation. And eventually I actually studied the Bible for real and understood what it meant. I then did my own study of the Bible and upon understanding it, debated my own fellow Christians who were of a different opinion. At this point I had studied Science to the point where I realized that it was improvable, and indemonstrable. And this was after I had realized that the Bible was mistranslated. BTW, the Bible is mistranslated.

That is sad. I am 16, yet I have came to the exact opposite conclusion. Could you explain what exactly changed your mind? Am just curious, nothing else.

Also, where was the Bible mistranslated? The Greek/Hebrew/Latin translations can be found everywhere, I have trouble believing that no one has ever called Christians out on it.

[mntbikedude]

Conditioning...

Good experiences lead to preferences. Bad experiences lead to avoidance.

Fear of social stigma would make most people fear to try it.

Keep in mind I prescribe to a multi-factor model and I believe that people will do stuff that makes them feel good. The initiative needs to be there to experiment in the first place, but once the pleasure pain factors come into play it is conditioning.

.

Seems legit and that's why they tried the reparative therapy of hooking your genitals to electrodes and shocking them while show hot pictures of guys follow by showing pictures women without shocking. It was supposed to condition you to turn gay. My own therapy the guy would say imagine an attractive guy and then he would say now feel so sick you want to vomit, you feel deep deep nausea. I tried to feel sick but I just couldn't.

I never had any thing that would have conditioned me to be gay. I didn't even know what it was. The only porn I had seen wasn't until I was 14 and it was only penthouse pictures. Didn't see a real porn until in my twenties and it was straight porn. I do think that people could have things happen that mess them up but that was not me.

[HaythamKenway]

Most Christians in this subforum don't believe people will go to hell forever and ever.



You are a liberal pure and simple. It doesn't matter if you hold some views that conservatives hold. You don't believe in the underlying principles of conservatism and you not only cry like a liberal you act like a front runner supporting whatever is convenient at the time.

-You believe George Bush is the cause of the recession and our actions have "created" millions of terrorists. You constantly accuse people of being racist (typical liberal tactic to label and silence those who disagree with you). http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1272586731

-You believe Obama is doing his best to fix the horrid mess the republicans created and the GOP are racists. You actually believe the GOP are stifling Obama's efforts to fix the country as if his policies could fix anything. No self-respecting conservative would praise Obama over the republicans despite their shortcomings. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1272582051

-You seem to be implying that the one good thing Obama has accomplished is universal healthcare. lol. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1272579591

-You not only defend Obama but the democrats at the expense of the so called racist Republicans and Supreme Court. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1272568861

-You suggest people shouldn't eat meat due to ethical reasons even though you do? http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1174913863

-You believe Iran has the right to a nuclear weapon. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1168080883

-You think women are superior to men for some odd reason.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1172088323
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1172145343

-More accusations of racism directed towards republicans. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1274056431

-You have the nerve to ask what is wrong with Hillary Clinton. lol. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1172127763
----------------------------------------------------

If you were truly a conservative you wouldn't be saying the things you are and acting the way you are and you would hold positions more along these lines.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1193924611
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1194161351
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1197161671

I am a true Conservative.

What I am not, is a racist Teabagger, which is what you want me to be. There's a BIG difference.

But on a serious note, repped, because as I said in the text that I repped you, either you are an extremely dedicated stalker, or you spent a lot of time and effort to formulate this post, so congrats. But I do hope you realize that 95% of my post history is dedicated to trolling people, right? I was awarded "Troll of the Year" award in 2010 by BB.COM. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/2010-site-awards.html
Do you realize how many times I've been banned for trolling "libs" as you like to call them? LOL

I'm not like that anymore, but I'm touched that you care so much about hating gays that you spent the time to dig through my post history from years ago.

[Austanian]

Seems legit and that's why they tried the reparative therapy of hooking your genitals to electrodes and shocking them while show hot pictures of guys follow by showing pictures women without shocking. It was supposed to condition you to turn gay. My own therapy the guy would say imagine an attractive guy and then he would say now feel so sick you want to vomit, you feel deep deep nausea. I tried to feel sick but I just couldn't.

I never had any thing that would have conditioned me to be gay. I didn't even know what it was. The only porn I had seen wasn't until I was 14 and it was only penthouse pictures. Didn't see a real porn until in my twenties and it was straight porn. I do think that people could have things happen that mess them up but that was not me.

I am sure the shock therapy would work to a point. I would also bet that it would cause psychological problems. Knowing that you are being conditioned causes problems.

As has been established you are clearly not gay. You are bisexual with a male preference.

I have never denied that there is likely a biological component to being gay. I just look at the data and see that there is obviously a missing component to that model.

[Malfurion]

75% of all HIV is spread through heterosexual transmission worldwide. Apparently God has pretty bad aim.

HIV affects gays at a hugely disproportionate rate, fact

And the rate is increasing for gays but decreasing for heterosexuals, fact

[flairon]

Seems legit and that's why they tried the reparative therapy of hooking your genitals to electrodes and shocking them while show hot pictures of guys follow by showing pictures women without shocking. It was supposed to condition you to turn gay. My own therapy the guy would say imagine an attractive guy and then he would say now feel so sick you want to vomit, you feel deep deep nausea. I tried to feel sick but I just couldn't.

I never had any thing that would have conditioned me to be gay. I didn't even know what it was. The only porn I had seen wasn't until I was 14 and it was only penthouse pictures. Didn't see a real porn until in my twenties and it was straight porn. I do think that people could have things happen that mess them up but that was not me.

yeah, but thats negative conditioning. Just the idea of using negative conditioning to get someone to like something is retarded.

If you don't like pie, and i'm trying to condition you to like pie, kicking you in the nuts every time i show you a piece of pie isn't going to be the way to do that

[chaunce54]

Is it?

Is ****philia a choice? Is it?

[Weightaholic]

And here's a question for you...if its not a choice for some, then exactly what part of a gay man's physiology makes him talk with a lisp, get a little extra swish in his step, have a limp wrist, and suddenly develop a love of platform shoes and short shorts

Answer the question, don't avoid it.

[CRyan64]

Is ****philia a choice? Is it?

No. Wut do?

[chaunce54]

No. Wut do?

Exactly, yet we don't let them run around banging children now do we? At least, not yet...

[CRyan64]

Exactly, yet we don't let them run around banging children now do we? At least, not yet...

soon.jpg

wait wot

[flairon]

Answer the question, don't avoid it.

I've answered it...half a dozen times.

I'm not saying all gays are gay by choice..im saying some are, probably more than actually are that way by nature because let's face it, when all the dust settles on this topic homosexuality is some form of a mental disorder. That doesn't make it bad, it doesn't make it good, it makes it a disorder. So you can't just ask the straight guys reading this forum when they made that choice because likely none of them made that choice to be exactly now nature intended them to be. The men and women who are hetero sexual absolutely did not make a choice in their sexuality because by natures design they are attracted to, want to mate and procreate with the opposite sex, and at least in nature's eyes..thats how things are supposed to be. Men and women are made to fuk and make babies with each other so there never EVER was a choice for heteros in their sexuality and in some homosexuals. But for some people who claim to be homosexuals, it is a choice that was facilitated by an infinite number of factors.

[CRyan64]

I've answered it...half a dozen times.

I'm not saying all gays are gay by choice..im saying some are, probably more than actually are that way by nature because let's face it, when all the dust settles on this topic homosexuality is some form of a mental disorder. That doesn't make it bad, it doesn't make it good, it makes it a disorder. So you can't just ask the straight guys reading this forum when they made that choice because likely none of them made that choice to be exactly now nature intended them to be. The men and women who are hetero sexual absolutely did not make a choice in their sexuality because by natures design they are attracted to, want to mate and procreate with the opposite sex, and at least in nature's eyes..thats how things are supposed to be. Men and women are made to fuk and make babies with each other so there never EVER was a choice for heteros in their sexuality and in some homosexuals. But for some people who claim to be homosexuals, it is a choice that was facilitated by an infinite number of factors.

[Malfurion]

But for some people who claim to be homosexuals, it is a choice that was facilitated by an infinite number of factors.

Not least the fact that being gay/bi is now the "cool" thing to do and will get you a load of sympathy and attention from others

[Swamp Dog]

But how is engaging in homosexual acts any worse than eating shellfish, or working on the Sabbath, or disobeying your parents?

Also, it never says that women laying with women is bad...so gay man sex is bad, but gay woman sex is ok?

Also, God makes people in His image, and people are born gay. So why would God create a gay person if it's automatically a sin? To deprive them of a lifetime of companionship and intimacy for no reason?

Also, why in the f*ck would any religious person care about what two consenting adults do privately that doesn't harm anyone else or themselves? Why are religious people so concerned with the sex lives of other adults? Don't you realize it's none of your business, and that it's extremely rude and insulting to express your hateful views?

Lulz you certainly came up with a barrage of counter questions fast. You sure op is not your alternate account?

[mntbikedude]

I am sure the shock therapy would work to a point. I would also bet that it would cause psychological problems. Knowing that you are being conditioned causes problems.

As has been established you are clearly not gay. You are bisexual with a male preference.

I have never denied that there is likely a biological component to being gay. I just look at the data and see that there is obviously a missing component to that model.

This didn't work at all it was a disaster. As far as me being bisexual this is technically accurate. I don't like the term because I think of someone that is bisexual as being fairly equally attracted to men and women. I really don't have visual attraction to women. But I do have a visual connection with my wife. It's hard to explain. My attraction to men is far more powerful and I don't really feel an attraction to women. Hence for all intent and purposes I consider myself gay. I feel like it's more that I'm 90% gay 10% hetero.

It's more like probably a lot of you guys in the right situation could get aroused with a gay. Ie maybe could get aroused if a guy gave you a bj. I don't think that makes you bi.

Again if I had been even somewhat attracted to women I would have just focused on that. That would have been easy.

[mntbikedude]

yeah, but thats negative conditioning. Just the idea of using negative conditioning to get someone to like something is retarded.

If you don't like pie, and i'm trying to condition you to like pie, kicking you in the nuts every time i show you a piece of pie isn't going to be the way to do that

There was some kind of positive stimuli that happened when they showed pictures of women.

[Fiyero]

Exactly, yet we don't let them run around banging children now do we? At least, not yet...

But who was consent.

[sawoobley]

You are a liberal pure and simple. It doesn't matter if you hold some views that conservatives hold. You don't believe in the underlying principles of conservatism and you not only cry like a liberal you act like a front runner supporting whatever is convenient at the time.

-You believe George Bush is the cause of the recession and our actions have "created" millions of terrorists. You constantly accuse people of being racist (typical liberal tactic to label and silence those who disagree with you). http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1272586731

-You believe Obama is doing his best to fix the horrid mess the republicans created and the GOP are racists. You actually believe the GOP are stifling Obama's efforts to fix the country as if his policies could fix anything. No self-respecting conservative would praise Obama over the republicans despite their shortcomings. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1272582051

-You seem to be implying that the one good thing Obama has accomplished is universal healthcare. lol. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1272579591

-You not only defend Obama but the democrats at the expense of the so called racist Republicans and Supreme Court. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1272568861

-You suggest people shouldn't eat meat due to ethical reasons even though you do? http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1174913863

-You believe Iran has the right to a nuclear weapon. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1168080883

-You think women are superior to men for some odd reason.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1172088323
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1172145343

-More accusations of racism directed towards republicans. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1274056431

-You have the nerve to ask what is wrong with Hillary Clinton. lol. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1172127763
----------------------------------------------------

If you were truly a conservative you wouldn't be saying the things you are and acting the way you are and you would hold positions more along these lines.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1193924611
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1194161351
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1197161671

I am a true Conservative.

What I am not, is a racist Teabagger, which is what you want me to be. There's a BIG difference.

But on a serious note, repped, because as I said in the text that I repped you, either you are an extremely dedicated stalker, or you spent a lot of time and effort to formulate this post, so congrats. But I do hope you realize that 95% of my post history is dedicated to trolling people, right? I was awarded "Troll of the Year" award in 2010 by BB.COM. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/2010-site-awards.html
Do you realize how many times I've been banned for trolling "libs" as you like to call them? LOL

I'm not like that anymore, but I'm touched that you care so much about hating gays that you spent the time to dig through my post history from years ago.

So to avoid being a racist teabagger you trash republicans, support universal healthcare, and talk favorably about democrats? Interdasting.

That post took ten minutes from targeted searches of the words liberal, conservative, Obama, Clinton, etc.

I don't enter the main misc except on very rare occasions which usually come from links from the R&P. I had no idea you were Lager1/Germanic or what that really means. Do you have any links to threads you have been involved in as HaythamKenway where you have stood up for conservative principles in the last few years?

I searched your post history because I was almost certain you were not a conservative based on your comments and reaction towards other conservatives in this sub forum. Let's be real anyone could have dug up those posts in a matter of minutes if they know how to use the search function effectively.

BTW, is you brah?

[DizzySmalls]

But it would be like comparing someone who likes dom vs sub. That person was not born that way, they grew to enjoy those things. Or to see them in a certain way.

Strongly disagree. Power dynamics are quite obviously an inherent aspect of sexuality. It's more that the average person is conditioned away from this realization

[flairon]

And here's a question for you...if its not a choice for some, then exactly what part of a gay man's physiology makes him talk with a lisp, get a little extra swish in his step, have a limp wrist, and suddenly develop a love of platform shoes and short shorts

Answer the question, don't avoid it.

there ya go

[chaunce54]

But who was consent.

A general great shift in social and legal attitudes toward issues of sex took place in the modern era and beliefs on the appropriate age below which girls should not be permitted to engage in sexual activity drifted toward adulthood. While ages from 10 to 13 were typically regarded as acceptable ages for sexual consent in Western countries during the mid-19th century, by the end of the 19th century changing attitudes towards sexuality and childhood resulted in the raising of the age of consent to around 16.

Age of consent can be changed.