EAA+CHO During WO: The Anti-Catabolic Solution...

[Trans_Isomer]

Tranny,

You do realize that GH secretion is at it's highest level when we (bodybuilders or any other mofo who wants to get big) are resting (i.e. sleeping). GH secretion is not of concern to any physique athlete whether bulking, cutting, or at a maintenance level because hopefully, and I don't mean any disrespeact by saying this, we are already big enough where the GH/ Igf-1(etc) factor quite frankly doesn't matter when we put our head on the pillow. GH shouldn't be of concern unless you are shooting it because any natty guy like moi will secret sufficient quantities when at rest (i.e sleeping) provided I am not taking any carbs at said time.....

Honestly, I feel GH secretion any other time, especially during heightened AA or EAA absorption (working out), is just splitting hairs. Normal cicradian cycles show that GH is always at it's highest when at rest (i.e. sleep). Basically, that is why any of us should be getting our rest so to speak.

I personally feel bringing GH into any pre/during/post nutritional protocal, per se, is not relevant to the natural performance or physique athlete. Sufficient rest is always a top priority for anyone and insulin manipulation has proven itself time and time again in the world of the physique athlete provided they know WTF they are doing

Yes GH release is very much so heightened at sleep. So what? Im not talking about sleep. Does that mean you dont want to heighten this very powerful hormone during exercise? Insulin is not as powerful and GH and IGF-1 are to muscle cell growth and proliferation.

And you are still not adressing many things I brought up.

You advocate macronutrient ingestion which will of course, need DIGESTION. Digestion shunts blood AWAY FROM MUSCLE to aid in the digestive processes. This if of course NOT IDEAL when blood is NOT optimally available to the muscle.

What happens when you have this 'tug-o-war' occuring between the digestive system and the muscle?

--> excessive rapid breathing
--> abnormally high exercise
heart rate (one of reasons
sudden cardiac death)
--> nausea
--> dizziness

During exercise you are in a 'Fight or Flight' SYMPATHETIC STIMULATION mode versus the post exercise window of 'Rest and Digest' PARASYMPATHETIC STIMULATION mode.

Eating a meal will stimulate the RELEASE OF CORTISOL. You advocate protein pre/peri-workout, but you do not supress cortisol, you actually INCREASE it. This happens because cortisol is needed to assimilate dietary proteins properly. Now combine this with the stress induced release of cortisol (training) and you have these combined additive properties ELEVATING cortisol. Real good for training right?

If you line up some of the key hormones it would go like this:

INSULIN VS. GROWTH HORMONE & IGF-1 & GLUCAGON & ADRENALINE

Again the rise in insulin will supress the others, and vice versa. Insulins anabolic effect itself has been described "minor" and "permissive". Growth Hormone and IGF-1 effects however are much more than 'minor' and 'permissive'. GH, as said above, INCREASES cartilage formation and skeletal muscle growth, increases protein synthesis, cell growth, and proliferation. You also get the added benefit of inreased lipolysis.


A rise in insulin will supress glucagon and adrenaline. When this happens body composition will be compromised due to a concept called intermediary metabolism which is IMPERATIVE for both muscle GROWTH and FAT LOSS. Glucagon and adrenaline will increase blood sugar by liberating glycogen phosporylase, this liberation is imperative to keep fatty stores in check.

Now insulin works with an enzyme called glycogen synthetase halting ALL aforementioned beneficial processes. The amino acid ingestion will contribute to gluconeogenic processes which will CRASH all above stated beneficial endocrinologic processes working AGAINST you in the realm of body composition. And since you SPIKED CORTISOL with the macronutrient ingestion you advocate, you again put yourself into a even more disadvantagous position!

Working out and eating are not meant to mix.

[Trans_Isomer]

thank you des! good post...GH is irrelevant in pre/during/post workout window

Growth Hormone is IRRELEVANT pre/peri/post workout? PLEASE explain.

[HalleluYAH]

interesting... I'm quite suprised you have a wpi shake 15min. pre workout, anyways what difference have you seen in your workouts since switching your protocol. And how important do you view adding the dex/malto, I've never use it.

I have noticed my muscles appear and feel fuller, whereas when I was cutting they looked and felt flat; like a deflated tire.

Taking 3 seperate doses of 15g minimizes the potential for hypoglycemia, and taking so close to the WO should elleviate any concern of adipose accumulation. The addition of CHO has also provided sustained workout energy. Perhaps even more importantly though is the attnuation of muscle catabolism. My genetics seem rather week at retaining muscle, so the expenditure of muscle proteins during my WO is to be avoided at all cost.

[HalleluYAH]

--> abnormally high exercise
heart rate (one of reasons
sudden cardiac death)

Excellent, cardio during an anaerobic workout. A body recomposition dream!

Are you suggesting that 15g doses of CHO taken pre, during and postWO could lead to cardiac arrest???

[Trans_Isomer]

Excellent, cardio during an anaerobic workout. A body recomposition dream!

Are you suggesting that 15g doses of CHO taken pre, during and postWO could lead to cardiac arrest???

Haha that first part made me lol, literally

But anyways, abnormally high heart rate which results from macronutrient ingestion can lead to sudden cardiac death. Couple this with the summer heat, stimulants (caffeine, etc) and so on, and yes it is a possibility that sudden cardiac death could occur. It has happened before, and depends on a not one but a few factors. Macronutrient ingestion adds to the possibility of this happening. When you are digesting your body is working hard to digest, and working hard to keep your muscle going as well if you are exercising, both take blood away from each other, leading to nausea, fatigue, etc.

Hence 'REST and DIGEST' and 'Fight or Flight' modes of the body.

[NATHAN518]

Growth Hormone is IRRELEVANT pre/peri/post workout? PLEASE explain.

any attempt at manipulating GH release in this window is futile Tranny...pre/peri/post workout nutrition have a NEGLIGIBLE effect on GH release.

[Trans_Isomer]

any attempt at manipulating GH release in this window is futile Tranny...pre/peri/post workout nutrition have a NEGLIGIBLE effect on GH release.

Well damn this is the first time ive heard this. I had no idea nutrition had a negligible effect on GH release. Better tell my anatomy and physiology teacher Dr. Jones she's got this all wrong

[NATHAN518]

Well damn this is the first time ive heard this. I had no idea nutrition had a negligible effect on GH release. Better tell my anatomy and physiology teacher Dr. Jones she's got this all wrong

LOL, yes tell Dr. Jones

it is absolutely negligible in terms of real world results.

[Trans_Isomer]

LOL, yes tell Dr. Jones

it is absolutely negligible in terms of real world results.

Sure thing buddy! Ill let her know along with the other endocrinologist ive spoken to about this!

[Androgenic]

Can you not concede that carbohydrates improve performance for athletes? At some point performance will drop off and hypoglycemia will ensue, and muscle catabolism may be taking place for gluconeogenesis.

http://www.gssiweb.com/reflib/refs/271/sse80.cfm?pid=38
KEY POINTS

*Prolonged strenuous exercise increases plasma concentrations of the hormones epinephrine, growth hormone, cortisol, and glucagon. Insulin is decreased.
*Ingestion of carbohydrate during prolonged exercise blunts these hormone responses and delays fatigue.
*The blunted hormone response may contribute to a delay in both central (brain) and peripheral (muscle) fatigue by helping to spare liver and muscle glycogen, maintain blood glucose, and reduce blood concentrations of free fatty acids, free tryptophan, and ammonia.
*To prevent a fall in blood glucose concentration and to blunt the hormonal response to exercise, every 15-20 min athletes should drink 8-12 oz (240-350 ml) of a sports drink that contains carbohydrate.

[deserusan]

Can you not concede that carbohydrates improve performance for athletes? At some point performance will drop off and hypoglycemia will ensue, and muscle catabolism may be taking place for gluconeogenesis.

http://www.gssiweb.com/reflib/refs/271/sse80.cfm?pid=38
KEY POINTS

*Prolonged strenuous exercise increases plasma concentrations of the hormones epinephrine, growth hormone, cortisol, and glucagon. Insulin is decreased.
*Ingestion of carbohydrate during prolonged exercise blunts these hormone responses and delays fatigue.
*The blunted hormone response may contribute to a delay in both central (brain) and peripheral (muscle) fatigue by helping to spare liver and muscle glycogen, maintain blood glucose, and reduce blood concentrations of free fatty acids, free tryptophan, and ammonia.
*To prevent a fall in blood glucose concentration and to blunt the hormonal response to exercise, every 15-20 min athletes should drink 8-12 oz (240-350 ml) of a sports drink that contains carbohydrate.

Would you recommend CellTech? I like insulin manipulation to be honest when bulking. It can be your best friend provided you aren't diabetic and know what you are doing.

[NATHAN518]

Sure thing buddy! Ill let her know along with the other endocrinologist ive spoken to about this!

cool. just tell her nathan518 said so

[hotasice2003]

Trans: I think most of what you say would be true, but all the macros that everyone in here is suggesting to take during the workout, take little to no digestion at all........ free form amino's for one, require no digestion, and the liquid CHO, requires very little digestion........ I have actually spoken to one scientist, who told me that liquid CHO taken during the workout actually stays in the stomach because the parasympathetic division is at work, and the sympathetic division is what controls digestion....... the absorption is done in the mouth........ now, this is wouldn't be that bad, because it's not like any of us are drinking gallons of liquid CHO........

[NATHAN518]

Well damn this is the first time ive heard this. I had no idea nutrition had a negligible effect on GH release. Better tell my anatomy and physiology teacher Dr. Jones she's got this all wrong

I will be sure and inform everyone in the bodybuilding world that they are all doing it wrong

[hotasice2003]

I will be sure and inform everyone in the bodybuilding world that they are all doing it wrong

lol including Layne.......

[Androgenic]

Would you recommend CellTech? I like insulin manipulation to be honest when bulking. It can be your best friend provided you aren't diabetic and know what you are doing.

No, I don't like the idea of a 75g dextrose load that is extrapolated from studies used to clinically test for diabetes. That is also 300kcals of high GI carbs and actually that has a negative effect regarding hydration and osmolarity, leading to GI distress and decreased hydration status.

Amount and timing is crucial. The Gatorade Sports Science Institute has some good stuff on their site though. I also think hydration and electrolytes is far, far too overlooked in these discussions.

[naturalguy]

Digestion shunts blood AWAY FROM MUSCLE to aid in the digestive processes. This if of course NOT IDEAL when blood is NOT optimally available to the muscle.

Great point and the reason why oats are not optimal immediately pre and post workout.

[bouche_]

i think the big question is whether or not oats post workout, BEFORE whey/dextrose, r not optimal.

is their interference in the whey/dex mix so great that gains r diminished?

because, it might b said that the oats, with their longer time of digestion, would b optimal, since they would b getting absorbed at a time that is beneficial, ie. after the whey/dex.

[Trans_Isomer]

Can you not concede that carbohydrates improve performance for athletes? At some point performance will drop off and hypoglycemia will ensue, and muscle catabolism may be taking place for gluconeogenesis.

http://www.gssiweb.com/reflib/refs/271/sse80.cfm?pid=38
KEY POINTS

*Prolonged strenuous exercise increases plasma concentrations of the hormones epinephrine, growth hormone, cortisol, and glucagon. Insulin is decreased.
*Ingestion of carbohydrate during prolonged exercise blunts these hormone responses and delays fatigue.
*The blunted hormone response may contribute to a delay in both central (brain) and peripheral (muscle) fatigue by helping to spare liver and muscle glycogen, maintain blood glucose, and reduce blood concentrations of free fatty acids, free tryptophan, and ammonia.
*To prevent a fall in blood glucose concentration and to blunt the hormonal response to exercise, every 15-20 min athletes should drink 8-12 oz (240-350 ml) of a sports drink that contains carbohydrate.

Yes, excellent points that SPORTS ATHLETES need to take into consideration. These type of athletes must be recuperated and such for the next day of training and such. If you are a sport athlete I recommend the above, whose goals are top performance, not for bodybuilders whose goals are COSMETIC.

When you are on stage, they dont ask how fast you can run the mile, they look at your body. Sports athletes and bodybuilders should have different nutrition and training routines. An athlete is NOT looking to be 240lbs 3% BF, but a bodybuilder is. A bodybuilder is NOT looking to run a under 6 minute mile, an athlete is.

Athletes goals are very much different than bodybuilders goals. Performance vs. Cosmetic.

And again my points above are either being not understood, or not read. Nobody has said anything about blunting the more powerful GH/IGF-1, the catecholamines, the digestive issues, etc.

These studies being used to advocate use of CHO/proteins,etc too are either non-applicable to bodybuilders (UNtrained athletes), flawed/questionable funding (Tipton) and/or show no improvement or mixed data/conclusions.

And again if you understand basic human anatomy and physiology, you know that the body is not meant to be digesting when movement is occuring, and the hormonal interactions revolving around exercise/diet that clearly show that for bodybuilders, elevating the GH/IGF-1 is much more important than insulin whose effects are described as 'minor' and 'permissive'

[Trans_Isomer]

The Gatorade Sports Science Institute has some good stuff on their site though. I also think hydration and electrolytes is far, far too overlooked in these discussions.

And im fine with plenty of water/electrolytes pre/peri-workout! Just not any macronutrients (Carb/Proteins/Fats)

[hotasice2003]

Trans: I think most of what you say would be true, but all the macros that everyone in here is suggesting to take during the workout, take little to no digestion at all........ free form amino's for one, require no digestion, and the liquid CHO, requires very little digestion........ I have actually spoken to one scientist, who told me that liquid CHO taken during the workout actually stays in the stomach because the parasympathetic division is at work, and the sympathetic division is what controls digestion....... the absorption is done in the mouth........ now, this is wouldn't be that bad, because it's not like any of us are drinking gallons of liquid CHO........

bump for trans...... what do you think?

[HalleluYAH]

Great point and the reason why oats are not optimal immediately pre and post workout.

Agreed.

[HalleluYAH]

No, I don't like the idea of a 75g dextrose load that is extrapolated from studies used to clinically test for diabetes. That is also 300kcals of high GI carbs and actually that has a negative effect regarding hydration and osmolarity, leading to GI distress and decreased hydration status.

Amount and timing is crucial. The Gatorade Sports Science Institute has some good stuff on their site though. I also think hydration and electrolytes is far, far too overlooked in these discussions.

100% Agreed.

[Tarkana]

now i'm wondering about the gh response during sleep from pre-bed shakes. i'd prefer to take a lot of calories in (milk/casein/oat flour/npb/banana) due to my lightweight tendencies, but would having so much pre-bed have a negative effect on gh secretion?

[Serpens Aeon]

now i'm wondering about the gh response during sleep from pre-bed shakes. i'd prefer to take a lot of calories in (milk/casein/oat flour/npb/banana) due to my lightweight tendencies, but would having so much pre-bed have a negative effect on gh secretion?

Mind you I'm a layman in this field, but I think that in reality the number of calories you imbibe a day is will exert much more of an effect than micro-managing your GH secretion.

[deserusan]

Mind you I'm a layman in this field, but I think that in reality the number of calories you imbibe a day is will exert much more of an effect than micro-managing your GH secretion.

I agree as well.

[hattrick]

This may be a little off subject, but how does something like K-R-ALA play in the picture for pre/post workout. What effect does this have on sugar (dex/malto) in this time frame?

[hotasice2003]

This may be a little off subject, but how does something like K-R-ALA play in the picture for pre/post workout. What effect does this have on sugar (dex/malto) in this time frame?

All the info you need:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne25.htm

[Trans_Isomer]

Trans: I think most of what you say would be true, but all the macros that everyone in here is suggesting to take during the workout, take little to no digestion at all........ free form amino's for one, require no digestion, and the liquid CHO, requires very little digestion........ I have actually spoken to one scientist, who told me that liquid CHO taken during the workout actually stays in the stomach because the parasympathetic division is at work, and the sympathetic division is what controls digestion....... the absorption is done in the mouth........ now, this is wouldn't be that bad, because it's not like any of us are drinking gallons of liquid CHO........

Sorry for not seeing this earlier hotasice,

I do not have a problem with free form amino's taken during a workout. I recommend them 45 minutes into the workout as high levels of cortisol are present. I do NOT recommend them before this time as through gluconeogenesis, these aminos will be converted to glucose, raising insulin, and blunting GH, IGF-1, Glucagon, et al.


And yes, liquid CHO isnt 'heavy' on the digestive system, but you still raise insulin levels, putting yourself in a disadvatagous position!

Again insulin BLUNTS Growth Hormone release which is needed for IGF-1. IGF-1 is one of the most potent activators AKT signalling pathway, a STIMULATOR of CELL GROWTH AND MULTIPLICATION.

[Trans_Isomer]

1: Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 May 16; [Epub ahead of print] Links
Mechanism of Insulin's Anabolic Effect on Muscle - Measurements of Muscle Protein Synthesis and Breakdown Using Aminoacyl tRNA and Other Surrogate Measures.Chow LS, Albright RC, Bigelow ML, Toffolo G, Cobelli C, Nair KS.
Division of Endocrinology, Nutrition and Metabolism, Mayo Clinic College of Medicine, Rochester, Minnesota, United States.

Despite being an anabolic hormone in skeletal muscle, insulin's anti-catabolic mechanism in humans remains controversial with contradictory reports showing either stimulation protein synthesis (PS) or inhibition protein breakdown (PB) by insulin. Earlier measurements of muscle PS and PB in humans have relied on different surrogate measures of amino acyl tRNA and intracellular pool. We report insulin's effect on muscle protein turnover using amino acyl-tRNA as the precursor of PS and PB is calculated by mass balance of tracee amino acid (AA). We compared the results calculated from various surrogate measures. To determine the physiological role of insulin on muscle protein metabolism we infused tracers of leucine and phenylalanine into 18 healthy subjects and after a three hours, 10 subjects received a four hour femoral arterial infusion of insulin (0.125 mU/kg/min) while eight subjects continued with saline. Tracer to tracee ratios of leucine, phenylalanine and ketoisocaproate were measured in the arterial and venous plasma, muscle tissue fluid and AA-tRNA to calculate muscle PB and PS. Insulin infusion, unlike saline, significantly reduced the efflux of leucine and phenylalanine from muscle bed based on various surrogate measures which agreed with those based on leucyl-tRNA (-28%) indicating a reduction in muscle PB (P<0.02) without any significant effect on muscle PS. In conclusion, using amino-acyl tRNA as the precursor pool, it is demonstrated that in healthy humans in the postabsorptive state, insulin does not stimulate muscle protein synthesis and confirmed that insulin achieves muscle protein anabolism by inhibition of muscle protein breakdown.

PMID: 16705065 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]