William Llewellyn's Thoughts on Arachidonic Acid (ArA) Alone vs with Fish Oil

[SwolenONE]

I just want to take a moment to specifically address the notion that Arachidonic Acid (ArA) should be taken alone, without fish oil, for maximum anabolic effect. While this may be true for some individuals, we at Molecular Nutrition have found through years of trial and error that fish oil can augment the anabolic effects of ArA in many individuals. This is why we added Omega-3 EFA’s to X-Factor Advanced. A recent study may help explain why there may be such synergy.

The study in question examined the metabolic effects of fish oil supplementation in young men. As part of this, the researchers measured prostaglandin (PG) levels. As you may know, PGF2-alpha is a prostaglandin produced from arachidonic acid, and is the PG primarily related to protein synthesis and muscle growth. It is what we’re looking for more of when taking ArA. The researchers must have expected a reduction in PGF2-alpha after fish oil, given its known competitive nature with ArA. However, the opposite occurred. Fish oil resulted in a substantial increase in PGF2-alpha.

What is probably going on is that the omega-3 EFA’s in fish oil are displacing membrane-bound ArA, causing it to enter circulation where it is available for PG synthesis. So instead of being counterproductive, taking fish oil alongside ArA may actually cause you to have a greater increase in the serum level of muscle-building prostaglandins. Whatever the exact mechanism, we are not noticing the inhibition everyone expected.

It probably isn’t this way for everyone, or at least I speculate. I’d imagine those that have already been taking high doses of fish oil might have already done a good job of lowering membrane-bound ARA. I would say this type of user should probably run ArA alone. Otherwise, taking some fish oil might help you get more out of your next run of ArA.




Reference:

Metabolism, 2013 Mar 20. pii: S0026-0495(13)00051-6. doi: 10.1016/j.metabol.2013.02.004. [Epub ahead of print]
Fish oil supplementation alters circulating eicosanoid concentrations in young healthy men.

[Mr.Cooper69]

These findings [and conclusions] were reported on suppversity a long time back. It is not relevant to simultaneous administration of fish oil + ArA. Rather, this would apply to someone who has done an exclusive ArA cycle, and then subsequently restarted using their fish oil once the ArA cycle was done. The higher concentration of ArA in membranes would result in higher displacement and metabolism of the ArA.

So I think a more appropriate conclusion would be that the effects of arachidonic acid supplementation will persist beyond the cycle length, especially if fish oil is administered once the run is over. This data does not, however, support ingesting both at exactly the same time.

[DR_P]

I have always been puzzled by the fact that whenever I did overdo it with taking fish oil, I got some joint pain out of nowhere. This led me to conclude that too much of fish oil might somehow cause some pro-inflammatory effects. From everything I knew about Omega3 metabolism I could not understand how this was possible. An acute displacement of ArA from membranes, feeding it into PL, might indeed be a plausible explanation. Wow, if that's true I definitely learned something important today.

I just want to take a moment to specifically address the notion that Arachidonic Acid (ArA) should be taken alone, without fish oil, for maximum anabolic effect. While this may be true for some individuals, we at Molecular Nutrition have found through years of trial and error that fish oil can augment the anabolic effects of ArA in many individuals. This is why we added Omega-3 EFA’s to X-Factor Advanced. A recent study may help explain why there may be such synergy.

The study in question examined the metabolic effects of fish oil supplementation in young men. As part of this, the researchers measured prostaglandin (PG) levels. As you may know, PGF2-alpha is a prostaglandin produced from arachidonic acid, and is the PG primarily related to protein synthesis and muscle growth. It is what we’re looking for more of when taking ArA. The researchers must have expected a reduction in PGF2-alpha after fish oil, given its known competitive nature with ArA. However, the opposite occurred. Fish oil resulted in a substantial increase in PGF2-alpha.

What is probably going on is that the omega-3 EFA’s in fish oil are displacing membrane-bound ArA, causing it to enter circulation where it is available for PG synthesis. So instead of being counterproductive, taking fish oil alongside ArA may actually cause you to have a greater increase in the serum level of muscle-building prostaglandins. Whatever the exact mechanism, we are not noticing the inhibition everyone expected.

It probably isn’t this way for everyone, or at least I speculate. I’d imagine those that have already been taking high doses of fish oil might have already done a good job of lowering membrane-bound ARA. I would say this type of user should probably run ArA alone. Otherwise, taking some fish oil might help you get more out of your next run of ArA.




Reference:

Metabolism, 2013 Mar 20. pii: S0026-0495(13)00051-6. doi: 10.1016/j.metabol.2013.02.004. [Epub ahead of print]
Fish oil supplementation alters circulating eicosanoid concentrations in young healthy men.

[Big Cat]

These findings [and conclusions] were reported on suppversity a long time back. It is not relevant to simultaneous administration of fish oil + ArA. Rather, this would apply to someone who has done an exclusive ArA cycle, and then subsequently restarted using their fish oil once the ArA cycle was done. The higher concentration of ArA in membranes would result in higher displacement and metabolism of the ArA.

So I think a more appropriate conclusion would be that the effects of arachidonic acid supplementation will persist beyond the cycle length, especially if fish oil is administered once the run is over. This data does not, however, support ingesting both at exactly the same time.

Omega-3 will displace omega-6 from the membranes. If you are taking a surplus of omega-3 with your AA, the net result is STILL more free AA ...

The high intake of omega-3 among athletes, if anything, does propose the usefulness of additional AA, especially when you know AA in turn does NOT displace omega-3's, but instead lowers levels of lower omega-6's like GLA and DGLA.

[Mr.Cooper69]

Omega-3 will displace omega-6 from the membranes. If you are taking a surplus of omega-3 with your AA, the net result is STILL more free AA ...

The high intake of omega-3 among athletes, if anything, does propose the usefulness of additional AA, especially when you know AA in turn does NOT displace omega-3's, but instead lowers levels of lower omega-6's like GLA and DGLA.

My point is that you will want to administer them at different times, not concurrently (as in XFA).

I absolutely agree on the worthiness of ArA supplementation merely to re-establish an equilibrium between EFA 3s/6s. Neuron's dosing scheme is still the best to this end because taking it with meals promotes storage in adipose tissue, where it may be beneficial in low amounts but counterproductive in excess.

[Big Cat]

My point is that you will want to administer them at different times, not concurrently (as in XFA).

I absolutely agree on the worthiness of ArA supplementation merely to re-establish an equilibrium between EFA 3s/6s. Neuron's dosing scheme is still the best to this end because taking it with meals promotes storage in adipose tissue, where it may be beneficial in low amounts but counterproductive in excess.

Plasma AA does not notably store as triglyceride. Where are you getting this from ?

[Mr.Cooper69]

Plasma AA does not notably store as triglyceride. Where are you getting this from ?

Did I say that? Lol.

How does ArA go through the bloodstream following ingestion? As a free fatty acid?

[sseddiq]

So if you need some omega 3 intake is the amount in XFA enough for daily needs? If not how much omega 3 would you need to consume per day and how much time before or after ArA intake would you need to take it?

[Mr.Cooper69]

So if you need some omega 3 intake is the amount in XFA enough for daily needs? If not how much omega 3 would you need to consume per day and how much time before or after ArA intake would you need to take it?

Again, we don't necessarily want ArA escaping into the plasma when it has already found its way to muscle tissue.

[PinchTheBear]

I agree with Mr. Cooper Sixty Nine and lmao at "big cat" for making a glorious return and not understanding remedial digestive principles

log off, friend

[DiabeticLifter]

I agree with Mr. Cooper Sixty Nine and lmao at "big cat" for making a glorious return and not understanding remedial digestive principles

log off, friend

He will never log off

[PinchTheBear]

He will never log off

everyone needs to log the **** off

LOG IT OFF, TROLL

[Mr.Cooper69]

Big cat mad?:?????

[PinchTheBear]

Big cat mad?:?????

logged

off

[DR_P]

Plasma AA does not notably store as triglyceride. Where are you getting this from ?

Big Cat is absolutely right and spot on with his statements. ArA is indeed mainly incorporated in phospholipids and only barely in triglycerides.

1.) Not that it really matters, but for the record, ArA is indeed among plasma free fatty acids (among others)
2.) it makes for not more than 2-3% of fatty acids in plasma triglycerides but between ~10-20% of blood cell membrane phospholipid fatty acids.
3.) its storage in adipose tissue triglycerides is negligable and that doesn't change even with high ArA supplementation
4) there is a change in plasma fatty acid composition (membrane phospholipids etc) but NOT of adipose tissue fatty acid composition due to high ArA supplementation.

Source: Lipids. 1997 Apr;32(4):427-33



Of interest, contrary to ArA supplementation, DHA supplementation does not only result in an enrichment of DHA in plasma but in adipose tissue as well (Lipids. 1997 Nov;32(11):1137-46)

[neuron]

Big Cat is absolutely right and spot on with his statements. ArA is indeed mainly incorporated in phospholipids and only barely in triglycerides.

1.) Not that it really matters, but for the record, ArA is indeed among plasma free fatty acids (among others)
2.) it makes for not more than 2-3% of fatty acids in plasma triglycerides but between ~10-20% of blood cell membrane phospholipid fatty acids.
3.) its storage in adipose tissue triglycerides is negligable and that doesn't change even with high ArA supplementation
4) there is a change in plasma fatty acid composition (membrane phospholipids etc) but NOT of adipose tissue fatty acid composition due to high ArA supplementation.

Source: Lipids. 1997 Apr;32(4):427-33



Of interest, contrary to ArA supplementation, DHA supplementation does not only result in an enrichment of DHA in plasma but in adipose tissue as well (Lipids. 1997 Nov;32(11):1137-46)

Great points, although the % ArA as a plasma FFA is rarely significantly changed even with large ArA doses (functionally, > 6 grams/d).

[PinchTheBear]

Big Cat is absolutely right and spot on with his statements. ArA is indeed mainly incorporated in phospholipids and only barely in triglycerides.

No one is arguing against that. It was a cheeky little misunderstanding between Mr.Cooper and Big Cat and now it's even funnier lol

you'll see it if you reread

[Jkalch]

Great points, although the % ArA as a plasma FFA is rarely significantly changed even with large ArA doses (functionally, > 6 grams/d).

Thanks for giving me negative rep for no reason. Way to abuse it.

[DR_P]

My point is that you will want to administer them at different times, not concurrently (as in XFA).

I absolutely agree on the worthiness of ArA supplementation merely to re-establish an equilibrium between EFA 3s/6s. Neuron's dosing scheme is still the best to this end because taking it with meals promotes storage in adipose tissue, where it may be beneficial in low amounts but counterproductive in excess.

Plasma AA does not notably store as triglyceride. Where are you getting this from ?

No one is arguing against that. It was a cheeky little misunderstanding between Mr.Cooper and Big Cat and now it's even funnier lol

you'll see it if you reread

I admit that not being a native speaker I tend to miss the punchlines sometimes, but when re-reading the previous posts - and I have multiquoted them here just above to have them all in one place - I still see it that way that MrCooper69 refers to meals promoting storage of co-ingested ArA in adipose tissue, to which the gist of BigCat's response was that ArA doesn't get meaningfully stored in adipose tissue [triglycerides] anyway.
I think we are all aware that ingested fatty acids get de- and then re-esterified into triglycerides before entering systemic bloodstream, so it appears to me that the discussion was all about triglyceride storage [in adipose tissue] and not about digestion [de- and re-estirification with glycerol into TGs].

[Mr.Cooper69]

I admit that not being a native speaker I tend to miss the punchlines sometimes, but when re-reading the previous posts - and I have multiquoted them here just above to have them all in one place - I still see it that way that MrCooper69 refers to meals promoting storage of co-ingested ArA in adipose tissue, to which the gist of BigCat's response was that ArA doesn't get meaningfully stored in adipose tissue [triglycerides] anyway.
I think we are all aware that ingested fatty acids get de- and then re-esterified into triglycerides before entering systemic bloodstream, so it appears to me that the discussion was all about triglyceride storage [in adipose tissue] and not about digestion [de- and re-estirification with glycerol into TGs].

I was referring to the activity of lipoprotein lipase during exercise versus feeding. By "storage," I did not mean storage as a triglyceride, and I'm well aware that ArA does not meaningfully do so.

What is your native tongue? Valyrian?

[Big Cat]

Did I say that? Lol.

Yes : "promotes storage in adipose tissue". Storage in adipose tissue occurs in the form of triglycerides. You could have referred to the phospholipids in the adipose cells, but these aren't considered "storage", they convey the same functional role as in any other cell type, and for instance skeletal muscle takes up more ARA after bolus dosing than those adipose tissue.

How does ArA go through the bloodstream following ingestion? As a free fatty acid?

FFA and phospholipid, but its cleared at a rapid rate. Witin less than a minute the majority has already left the bloodstream.

Great points, although the % ArA as a plasma FFA is rarely significantly changed even with large ArA doses (functionally, > 6 grams/d).

Indeed, see clearance rates after ingestion. Within two minutes most of it cannot be detected in plasma FFA pools, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there after ingestion.

Big cat mad?:?????

No, totally lost track of this thread. I'm not as omnipresent as I once was

[Mr.Cooper69]

Yes : "promotes storage in adipose tissue". Storage in adipose tissue occurs in the form of triglycerides. You could have referred to the phospholipids in the adipose cells, but these aren't considered "storage", they convey the same functional role as in any other cell type, and for instance skeletal muscle takes up more ARA after bolus dosing than those adipose tissue.

No you win, I didn't know ArA stores as a phospholipid. You win bro!

[Mr.Cooper69]

FFA and phospholipid, but its cleared at a rapid rate. Witin less than a minute the majority has already left the bloodstream.

Chylowhatcron?

[Big Cat]

Chylowhatcron?

ARA in chylomicrons is also stored in their phospholipid fraction.

Am I reading too much into this or do I detect a sense of belligerence here ?

No you win, I didn't know ArA stores as a phospholipid. You win bro!

Cool. I didn't even know it was a contest.

[Mr.Cooper69]

If its not a contest, why are you still nitpicking grammatical semantics and wording from a month ago my fellow feline? Probably to educate the forums right? Not to come out on top in a [perceived] debate?

I'm the chairman of the board, pinch is formulator of SSE, and neuron is editor in chief of MASS. So who the **** are you

[Big Cat]

If its not a contest, why are you still nitpicking grammatical semantics and wording from a month ago my fellow feline? Probably to educate the forums right?

Actually doing a ton of research on ARA currently, saw a thread on it, and felt like chiming in :s The issue was also hardly grammatical. You made a statement, I only asked where you got that idea from since I hadn't heard it and it contradicted what I knew. I thought maybe you had read a paper I hadn't. Turns out you hadn't and got a little butthurt that it was inadvertently pointed out. My bad.

I'm the chairman of the board, pinch is formulator of SSE, and neuron is editor in chief of MASS. So who the **** are you

That made no sense to me at all, but I think you may have some unresolved issues that have little if anything to do with me or the subject of this thread. If you really need to know who I am, ask some people who have been around here longer than yourself.

[tmd17]

So whats the conclusion here? Fish oil or no fish oil with ArA?

[Big Cat]

So whats the conclusion here? Fish oil or no fish oil with ArA?

The conclusion is that Fish oil is good regardless, and that if you take supplemental fish oil, ARA is certainly not without its merits. High omega-3 intake lowers phospholipid omega-6 content, where additional ARA does not affect Omega-3 content, but will further lower lower-order omega-6 FA's, having a synergistic effect on health and performance.

[Mr.Cooper69]

Actually doing a ton of research on ARA currently, saw a thread on it, and felt like chiming in :s The issue was also hardly grammatical. You made a statement, I only asked where you got that idea from since I hadn't heard it and it contradicted what I knew. I thought maybe you had read a paper I hadn't. Turns out you hadn't and got a little butthurt that it was inadvertently pointed out. My bad.



That made no sense to me at all, but I think you may have some unresolved issues that have little if anything to do with me or the subject of this thread. If you really need to know who I am, ask some people who have been around here longer than yourself.

log

off

[Elliptical Envy]

Coop is on that troll time