Bioenergetic Continuum

[casvg5]

So our muscles get energy from 1)ATP-CP pathway, then 2)glycolysis, then lastly 3) the oxidative pathway.

For fat loss we would like to stay in the oxidative state, to "oxidize" fat and use it for energy.

My question is:

Would supplementing with Creatine make it harder to get past the ATP-CP phase and into oxidative? Or would the short extension of the ATP cycle that creatine supplementation grants, be negligible in the big picture?

Any thoughts?

[KyleAaron]

Stored ATP-PC lasts a few seconds. Lactate cycle producing ATP takes over after that. Aerobic producing still more ATP takes a few minutes to kick in, and lactate takes a break. So adding creatine just adds a second or two, an extra few reps of effort.

For fat loss, difference trivial.

You're overthinking it. For 90% of clients, it's just energy out vs energy in. And since most beginners will burn 200-300kcal an hour, or 500kcal if they're really determined and have some cardiovascular fitness already, and since one large fries from McDs is 500kcal, well the energy in is much easier to deal with than the energy out.

Strength and fitness is built in the gym, size is built at the dinner table.

[casvg5]

Stored ATP-PC lasts a few seconds. Lactate cycle producing ATP takes over after that. Aerobic producing still more ATP takes a few minutes to kick in, and lactate takes a break. So adding creatine just adds a second or two, an extra few reps of effort.

For fat loss, difference trivial.

You're overthinking it. For 90% of clients, it's just energy out vs energy in. And since most beginners will burn 200-300kcal an hour, or 500kcal if they're really determined and have some cardiovascular fitness already, and since one large fries from McDs is 500kcal, well the energy in is much easier to deal with than the energy out.

Strength and fitness is built in the gym, size is built at the dinner table.

Thanks. That is what I was thinking

[jules_d1]

Yes the effect will be rather negligible.

Take world class sprinters for example. They use world class training/supplementation/drug regimes (some legal, some not ) but even over the course of a 100m race, they start to slow down at the 70m mark as their APT stores and depleted in about 7 seconds.

[askthetrainer]

Good question and good responses...

[jules_d1]

Good question and good responses...

awww is this the first fully postive thread.


i feel much love

[DaBurg3r]

So our muscles get energy from 1)ATP-CP pathway, then 2)glycolysis, then lastly 3) the oxidative pathway.

For fat loss we would like to stay in the oxidative state, to "oxidize" fat and use it for energy.

My question is:

Would supplementing with Creatine make it harder to get past the ATP-CP phase and into oxidative? Or would the short extension of the ATP cycle that creatine supplementation grants, be negligible in the big picture?

Any thoughts?

No because the use of different energy pathways also relates to different muscle fiber types being utilized.

Read up on muscle fiber types.

[KyleAaron]

Different muscle fibre types? All muscle fibres are given energy the same way, it's the same biochemistry going on. All comes down to ATP.

Please, no Broscience in the PT forum.

[nickmanzoni]

awww is this the first fully postive thread.


i feel much love

You spoke too soon....

[nickmanzoni]

No because the use of different energy pathways also relates to different muscle fiber types being utilized.

Read up on muscle fiber types.

So a type-1 muscle fiber never receives energy from which of the pathways listed above?

atp-cp, glycolysis, or aerobic?

[CScheiner]

So a type-1 muscle fiber never receives energy from which of the pathways listed above?

atp-cp, glycolysis, or aerobic?

It's that certain muscles have better reactions to different processes, depending on the build of the fibers. Type I fibers tend to draw more aerobic enzymes, have a higher capillary and mitochondria density, and aerobic energy supply in general. I am not sure if it will make such a difference with the creatine as the Type IIa and b will possibly use if doing interval training.

In either case, Type I fibers have low acto myofibrillar ATpase activity (Battam, Clark, et al), which means it would not really affect the aerobic/oxidative system as Myosin ATPase is only applicable to the phos****en system/ATP-CP phase.

[nickmanzoni]

[QUOTE=CScheiner;500986071]It's that certain muscles have better reactions to different processes, depending on the build of the fibers. Type I fibers tend to draw more aerobic enzymes, have a higher capillary and mitochondria density, and aerobic energy supply in general. I am not sure if it will make such a difference with the creatine as the Type IIa and b will possibly use if doing interval training.

In either case, Type I fibers have low acto myofibrillar ATpase activity (Battam, Clark, et al), which means it would not really affect the aerobic/oxidative system as Myosin ATPase is only applicable to the phos****en system/ATP-CP phase.[/QUOTE

But they STILL go through the aerobic cycle. Just not utilizing it for every system (no one muscle type relies ONLY on one system)....so quote as many references you'd like. You're comparing apples to airplanes.

[CScheiner]

It's that certain muscles have better reactions to different processes, depending on the build of the fibers. Type I fibers tend to draw more aerobic enzymes, have a higher capillary and mitochondria density, and aerobic energy supply in general. I am not sure if it will make such a difference with the creatine as the Type IIa and b will possibly use if doing interval training.

In either case, Type I fibers have low acto myofibrillar ATPase activity (Battam, Clark, et al), which means creatine would not really affect the aerobic/oxidative system as Myosin ATPase is only applicable to the phos****en system/ATP-CP phase.

But they STILL go through the aerobic cycle. Just not utilizing it for every system (no one muscle type relies ONLY on one system)....so quote as many references you'd like. You're comparing apples to airplanes.

I'm not saying it doesn't go through the aerobic cycle, I am saying that creatine will not make it harder to get to the oxidative/aerobic process because Type I fibers wont have a huge reaction towards it as the creatine kinase process occurs at the same rate as the myosin ATPase process. The activity of ATPase is lower in Type I fibers so the creatine will essentially be unused after the 30 or so seconds that the ATP-CP process occurs.

Edit: I would really like to understand what I am not understand if I am wrong, but I feel as though I am correct.

[nickmanzoni]

I'm not saying it doesn't go through the aerobic cycle, I am saying that creatine will not make it harder to get to the oxidative/aerobic process because Type I fibers wont have a huge reaction towards it as the creatine kinase process occurs at the same rate as the myosin ATPase process. The activity of ATPase is lower in Type I fibers so the creatine will essentially be unused after the 30 or so seconds that the ATP-CP process occurs.

Edit: I would really like to understand what I am not understand if I am wrong, but I feel as though I am correct.

your posts are correct, BUT you lost focus:

we are arguing about whether or not a muscle type (any) goes through EVERY energy system or just a few, in which you said "depends on the muscle fiber type" which IS wrong.

[DaBurg3r]

So a type-1 muscle fiber never receives energy from which of the pathways listed above?

atp-cp, glycolysis, or aerobic?

Nice try! but there's no such thing as a type-1 muscle fiber!

Seriously though, all the muscles are capable of using any of the bodies sources of energy however Type-1 don't really use Creatine as an energy source.

...aaaannnddd. Type-1 muscle fiber don't have much capacity to produce ATP but can burn it.

Since your wanting me to pick an answer I'm actually going to go with Glycolysis.

All the muscle fiber types can use every energy pathway but the abundance of certain enzymes and even the energy storage method of each muscle fiber type, provide for "preferred" methods of obtaining energy.

[edwardL]

Stored ATP-PC lasts a few seconds. Lactate cycle producing ATP takes over after that. Aerobic producing still more ATP takes a few minutes to kick in, and lactate takes a break. So adding creatine just adds a second or two, an extra few reps of effort.

For fat loss, difference trivial.

You're overthinking it. For 90% of clients, it's just energy out vs energy in. And since most beginners will burn 200-300kcal an hour, or 500kcal if they're really determined and have some cardiovascular fitness already, and since one large fries from McDs is 500kcal, well the energy in is much easier to deal with than the energy out.

Strength and fitness is built in the gym, size is built at the dinner table.

atp-cp cycle lasts up to approx. 10 seconds and is used during high intensity short duration activities like heavy lifting, thats why in the resistance training portion of max strength you take 3-5 min rest intervals, because it takes that long to recover all your atp in order to produce a maximum repetition

glycolysis (lactate cycle?) the last thing you want in this cylce is lactate, this is where carbs (glucose) are broke down to rapidly produce atp- one glucose molecule produces 2 atp here, creating a by product pyruvate, now if pyruvate cant be used fast enough by the muscle cells then a buildup of lactic acid occurs, which can interfere with muscle contractions, the phase of this cycle is predominant durring 30-55 seoconds of activity

oxydative- this is the fat burner, this cycle requires ALOT of oxygen and usually occors
durring activities greater than 2 minutes. one molecule of glucose produces 36 ATP! here in this phase, if enough oxygen is present then the byproduct pyruvate does not convert into lactic acid, but becomes a usable substrate for producing more atp.

people take the info you post on here and it becomes viral, talked about in gyms, and then we have people thinking we have a cycle for lactate, (pregnant or nursing?)

*maximum fat lose occurs in the oxydative cycle, here is a tip, diaphragm breathing is very important, holding your breath only makes your face red and robs your body of its ability to convert pyruvate. taking creatine is basically just going to make you retain water, as soon as you stop taking it you lose the water weight, so why waste your money when your body already produces it? its a very good question when you substitute something your body naturally produces then it sees no reason to produce it, not shutting down but reducing its own. *

look into these topics:
sliding filement theory, protein synthesis, undulating periodization, dysfunctional breathing..

and as for daburger... serious man, no such thing as type 1 muscle fibers? then you go on to talk about them....

[KyleAaron]

And... edward's another one overthinking it. Probably still studying for his certificates - trust me, mate, this stuff you won't be using in day-to-day PT life. Don't major in the minors. I refer to my earlier post, effect trivial compared to the pizza and doughnuts many clients will live on.

They just need to eat less and move more. And the variations with the eating less (or not) will be far, far greater than the variations produced in moving more and resting between sets less or more, etc.

Remember the 80/20 rule. You're focusing on the stuff which makes a few percent difference in the results. Keep the focus on the stuff getting 90% of the results. That's eating less and moving more. Strength is built at the gym, size at the dinner table.

When they're doing things like deadlfiting twice their bodyweight, have added several kg of lean mass, are running 5km in under 25'00", are down to 10% bodyfat and start thinking about bodybuilding competitions, okay then this stuff matters. The vast majority of clients are nowhere near that, though.

Don't major in the minors.