Reduce protein intake when on BCAAs??

[layarph]

Guys,

I was wondering if, whilst trying to go through a calorie deficit, can I reduce my protein intake to less than 1g/pound LBM by taking 20g of BCAAs each day to make up for the lack of repair the protein would enhance?

Cheers.

[AlwaysTryin]

Sure... Or...

You could reduce BCAA intake to 0 due to protein intake being sufficient and SAVE $$$

your choice

[Joseph1990]

Sure... Or...

You could reduce BCAA intake to 0 due to protein intake being sufficient and SAVE $$$

your choice

lol, man o man. This^

[layarph]

OK. Well let's forget about money for now... Surely the caloric value of BCAAs has the advantage over protein when trying to cut your calories??

Thanks for the responses!

[AlwaysTryin]

OK. Well let's forget about money for now... Surely the caloric value of BCAAs has the advantage over protein when trying to cut your calories??

Thanks for the responses!

How so? They both have calories..

[WonderPug]

You BCAA intake will be sufficient simply by eating typical protein sources, and protein has higher satiety than carbs or (perhaps) fat, so I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.

[layarph]

Well I always thought I was correct in thinking the calories in BCAAs were substantially less than the equivalent value in weight to whey protein for example, but it seems I was wrong after looking at it properly.

Sorry guys. Thanks for the help.

[MajorTwang]

Well I always thought I was correct in thinking the calories in BCAAs were substantially less than the equivalent value in weight to whey protein for example, but it seems I was wrong after looking at it properly.

Sorry guys. Thanks for the help.

BCAA's are amino acids with a calorie value of 4 cals per gram - just like any other protein. Animal protein is normally 1/4 to 1/3 BCAA's.

Whey is around 1/3, so 30g of BCAA's (120 cals) is equivalent to 100g of whey (400 cals) in terms of BCAA content - but not in terms of anything else.

There's a lot of guff & broscience talked about BCAA's - mainly from supplement marketers who like to make out that adding BCAA's to whey protein (effectively just upping the BCAA content by a couple of percent) somehow makes it a superior, turbo-charged product worth spending extra $$'s on.

The only possible use that I've ever read a convincing case for is for people on Intermittent Fasting protocols who can't line up their gym sessions with their feeding windows, and need to give their muscles a little supplement to help them cope with fasted training.

Also - when you are cutting, you need more protein anyway to protect your muscles from the body's tendancy to oxidise amino acids for energy. Going <1g per pound on a cut will cause increased muscle loss.

[AlwaysTryin]

There's a lot of guff & broscience talked about BCAA's - mainly from supplement marketers who like to make out that adding BCAA's to whey protein (effectively just upping the BCAA content by a couple of percent) somehow makes it a superior, turbo-charged product worth spending extra $$'s on.

Chris....

[layarph]

Also - when you are cutting, you need more protein anyway to protect your muscles from the body's tendancy to oxidise amino acids for energy. Going <1g per pound on a cut will cause increased muscle loss.

Thanks for that Major...I never really looked into the body's need to oxidise amino acids before. That really helps. I shall research now.

[snagency]

BCAA's are amino acids with a calorie value of 4 cals per gram

There's a lot of guff & broscience talked about BCAA's

indeed.

you exemplify this statement with your questionable post.

much like the caloric value of protein itself is not directly interchangeable with carbs & fats, the value of BCAA is not directly equivalent to a caloric unit of energy.

point being - it is oversimplifying (and erroneous) to consider BCAAs as 1g = 4 cals for dietary purposes.


with protein, you have to consider the thermic value of digestion on the overall impact of metabolism. whereas ~30% of every gram of protein is burned in the digestion process, only ~6-8% of carbs are similarly burned..and only 2-3% of fats.

on another vein (but similar difference in concept) - BCAA bypass the liver and are metabolized directly to muscle tissue..there is no direct translation to caloric value as a unit of energy here.

IMO, to count any caloric value from BCAA intake towards your daily macro goals is a fruitless endeavor.

[jeffbear]

indeed.

you exemplify this statement with your questionable post.

much like the caloric value of protein itself is not directly interchangeable with carbs & fats, the value of BCAA is not directly equivalent to a caloric unit of energy.

point being - it is oversimplifying (and erroneous) to consider BCAAs as 1g = 4 cals for dietary purposes.


with protein, you have to consider the thermic value of digestion on the overall impact of metabolism. whereas ~30% of every gram of protein is burned in the digestion process, only ~6-8% of carbs are similarly burned..and only 2-3% of fats.

on another vein (but similar difference in concept) - BCAA bypass the liver and are metabolized directly to muscle tissue..there is no direct translation to caloric value as a unit of energy here.

IMO, to count any caloric value from BCAA intake towards your daily macro goals is a fruitless endeavor.

These statements are backed by the fact that most BCAA products do not have a calorie content on the label. I'm looking at my Extend label right now and it says nothing about calories.

[dizzzane]

You BCAA intake will be sufficient simply by eating typical protein sources

This.

[layarph]

These statements are backed by the fact that most BCAA products do not have a calorie content on the label. I'm looking at my Extend label right now and it says nothing about calories.

I think what he's getting at, is that pretty much anything we refer to with a caloric value, has to go through a more significant digestion process, hence the thermic value.

However, the BCAAs bypass certain processes to the point where their caloric value can almost be ignored, because those calories don't impact your body in the same manner we usually understand 'calories' to as say a chicken breast or scoop of whey.

I know most BCAA labels don't have calories listed on the packaging...maybe the reasons snagency suggested are why.

[WonderPug]

^ You're logic is inverted.

[Justin-27]

The only possible use that I've ever read a convincing case for is for people on Intermittent Fasting protocols who can't line up their gym sessions with their feeding windows, and need to give their muscles a little supplement to help them cope with fasted training.

Also - when you are cutting, you need more protein anyway to protect your muscles from the body's tendancy to oxidise amino acids for energy. Going <1g per pound on a cut will cause increased muscle loss.

And those that recommend that 10 gram BCAA dosing generally state that doing 25 grams of whey is a suitable replacement (though that is a chunk of cals for someone trying to stay fasted I suppose).

2nd paragraph I totally agree. Keep the protein high when caloric levels approach less than maintenance. Better safe than sorry.

IMO, to count any caloric value from BCAA intake towards your daily macro goals is a fruitless endeavor.

Why is it that all the top natural bb'ers say that you should count them? I'm really curious here. I always had heard BCAA's have calories just as any protein source would. So help clearing this up would be beneficial. Thanks.

[snagency]

However, the BCAAs bypass certain processes to the point where their caloric value can almost be ignored, because those calories don't impact your body in the same manner we usually understand 'calories' to as say a chicken breast or scoop of whey.

you are on the right track, just using wrong analogy.

because BCAA are metabolized differently than food, there is no way to measure that unit of caloric value..and if you could, it would not come anywhere close to 1 g = 4 cals.

again, because we are bypassing digestion and the typical way we think of energy (extend this concept out to calorie=energy, and if energy does not get utilized it is stored to fat), there is no formula that will tabulate a stored-energy measurement potential of BCAA.

[snagency]

Why is it that all the top natural bb'ers say that you should count them?

i wouldn't say all have this philosophy.

Layne Norton i believe is a proponent of counting them in his macros..
which (quite honestly to me) is surprising.

i have always held the opposite view, reasoning explained above.

[layarph]

you are on the right track, just using wrong analogy.

because BCAA are metabolized differently than food, there is no way to measure that unit of caloric value..and if you could, it would not come anywhere close to 1 g = 4 cals.

again, because we are bypassing digestion and the typical way we think of energy (extend this concept out to calorie=energy, and if energy does not get utilized it is stored to fat), there is no formula that will tabulate a stored-energy measurement potential of BCAA.

I see what you're saying!! Very helpful. cheers. Reps

[Chuck2600]

Sure... Or...

You could reduce BCAA intake to 0 due to protein intake being sufficient and SAVE $$$

your choice

This

One of the biggest selling points people make for bcaa's is how when you take supp with it it genuinely cuts down on doms. Well I took it for several months, even experimented with it taking up to 90g per day but I stopped taking it altogether about a month ago. Guess what I noticed? NO change in DOMS what so ever, that's from taking 15 scoops a day to 0 a day.

[Chuck2600]

These statements are backed by the fact that most BCAA products do not have a calorie content on the label. I'm looking at my Extend label right now and it says nothing about calories.

Don't quote me on this but I remember a thread where Layne said the FDA told Marc he was not alloud to include the caloric content of XTEND for some reason. I know Marc claims XTEND is calorie free but as above posters said just like protein bcaa's have about 4 caloires per gram.

[snagency]

I see what you're saying!! Very helpful. cheers. Reps

to help further that understanding, let's take a look at a sugar alcohol such as xylitol or maltitol. because of it's chemical structure and the way it is utilized by the body, the caloric value of each compound is ~2kcal (vs. of course the standard ~4kcal for the same amount of table sugar).

the difference here is, we can measure this compound as it relates to energy..with BCAA, this is not the case.

while i am not averse to considering some sort of caloric value for BCAA consumption, the amount is minute and (again) not worth the trouble.

Don't quote me on this but I remember a thread where Layne said the FDA told Marc he was not alloud to include the caloric content of XTEND for some reason.

true, cannot per FDA.

I know Marc claims XTEND is calorie free but as above posters said just like protein bcaa's have about 4 caloires per gram.

no.

[snorkelman]

as above posters said just like protein bcaa's have about 4 caloires per gram.

still, unless you are gulping down a ton of it, who really is that anal? Another poster implied that Layne counts calories from free form BCAA? If you take a couple scoops, it is what? 12 grams? Even if you take 4 scoops that's about 24 grams of bcaa. Even using the 4 calories per gram assumtions, at 4 calories per gram, that would be 100 calories. I can see why someone in pre-contest may want to count if every calorie matters, and/or also if they are taking a bunch of bcaa, but if you are just taking a couple scoops a day and not pre-contest, that just seems pretty anal retentive.

while i am not averse to considering some sort of caloric value for BCAA consumption, the amount is minute and (again) not worth the trouble.

^^ agreed

[snagency]

I can see why someone in pre-contest may want to count if every calorie matters

i have never counted them in my contest preps - and have always observed a generous dosing strategy during these times, not only periworkout (where BCAA use is the most effective imo, far superior than a whey shake at this timeframe for many reasons); but between meals and at bedtime/rising as well.

[Ghosting]

I think the BCAAs is a recommendation for the IF method. I'm guessing thats why people use such expensive stuff. A way to get aminos without an insulin spike to train "fasted"? I don't agree with it being called fasted, unless no insulin spike = fasted.

[Ghosting]

no.

Whoah, it is not 4 cals/gram like regular protein?

[snorkelman]

A way to get aminos without an insulin spike ...

^^ incorrect. Of course "spike" is vague, but I stand by my point.

[Ghosting]

it would not come anywhere close to 1 g = 4 cals.

Nevermind on the caloric value of BCAAs. Good to know.

[Ghosting]

^^ incorrect. Of course "spike" is vague, but I stand by my point.

Does it cause much of an insulin spike being protein and so low in cals?

[MikeK46]

you are on the right track, just using wrong analogy.

because BCAA are metabolized differently than food, there is no way to measure that unit of caloric value..and if you could, it would not come anywhere close to 1 g = 4 cals.

again, because we are bypassing digestion and the typical way we think of energy (extend this concept out to calorie=energy, and if energy does not get utilized it is stored to fat), there is no formula that will tabulate a stored-energy measurement potential of BCAA.

Say what?

BCAA's are free form amino acids. Once digested, protein in food also becomes free form amino acids. Amino acids provide 4 calories of energy per gram.

They are only digested "differently" because BCAA's are not digested at all. The BCAA's in powder form are not bound to other amino acids, so they don't need to be hydrolyzed and can simply pass through the intestinal lining and into the blood.

The only difference is that the thermic effect of digestion will be lower for free form BCAA's. They are not metabolized any differently once in the blood. By that point, it makes no difference whether they came from a piece of chicken or a tub of BCAA powder. The piece of chicken will simply provide a full spectrum of amino acids, while the BCAA powder will provide only the branched chain amino acids.

When you eat sufficient dietary protein there's no reason to supplement with free form BCAA's. You're already getting them, and more.