Powerlifting and Specificity

[RRacoon]

Hey how's it going.

What do you guys and girls think about powerlifting and training the specific big 3 lifts in the sport?

I have recently been doing westside bb methods and love this style of training, big increases in strength and speed (which I had previously not worked on).

I deadlift conventional and about 8 weeks ago was hitting 202.5kg, but the other day struggled (almost failed) on 180kg. Exercises such as bent leg goodmornings and sumo box squat have increased substantially, yet have not translated over to my conventional deadlift but seem to have decreased it a lot.

I believe I am stronger and much faster but the issue is down to the issue of specificity, and the need to actually train the lift with my typical style. What do you think?

Also how often do you train your deadlift in your specific style? (Conventional or sumo).

I am going to train my conventional deadlift more on max effort squat/dead days and see what happens. How often do you think would be ideal? Use to train deads once a week.

Any help and input would be great.

Cheers

Raccoon

[BombDonald]

We would really need more specifics to figure out the problem, you might have hit 202.5 on a great day and 180 on a day where you are super beat up.

There isn't necessarily going to be a direct correlation between assistance exercise numbers and the competition lifts.

[scorpionsf]

i deadlift when and how my program tells me to sheiko cms/ms prep
conventional, deficit, sumo, from blocks/racks (pull sumo in competition)

normally its 1-1.5 times a week

[BigJon55]

I have wondered this myself. This is the main reason i don't train with a westside style template. My deadlift is by far my best lift and it grows the more i train it. Does anyone know how to properly cycle deadlifting into westside training for those of us who need to squat and deadlift frequently?

[wakechica]

when i got stuck conventional i went sumo. I have very long legs, i think it works more in my favor. I train DL 1-2/week; some say you don't need to train it much which is also true - 6 weeks off and pulled a PR - WTF?!! I like it too much to not train it regularly. I hate good mornings, they're in my program but feel I'll be subbing them for more DLs. I would usually DL, pin pull and GM in a week but hey; would rather DL twice and do pin pulls too.

[isaku900]

Does anyone know how to properly cycle deadlifting into westside training for those of us who need to squat and deadlift frequently?

...yeah, you deadlift more often.

once again, the "westside doesn't deadlift" thing is from 2004....more recently you can see westside guys deadlifting 2-3 times out of 4 weeks for max effort and speed pulls on DE day. Not to mention using various deadlift variations as assistance work.

so if you want to deadlift more often....deadlift more often. its not rocket surgery.

[runtocatch]

I have wondered this myself. This is the main reason i don't train with a westside style template. My deadlift is by far my best lift and it grows the more i train it. Does anyone know how to properly cycle deadlifting into westside training for those of us who need to squat and deadlift frequently?

How often do you need to squat and deadlift?

[RRacoon]

We would really need more specifics to figure out the problem, you might have hit 202.5 on a great day and 180 on a day where you are super beat up.

There isn't necessarily going to be a direct correlation between assistance exercise numbers and the competition lifts.

Yes this is true I was a bit fatigued by the point of attempting the lift and used a slightly narrower stance than I usually do. I have pulled over 200kg several times before though and this decrease seemed to big for me.

Deadlift is by far my favorite lift and I think my technique is somewhat not as efficient because of the lack of specific deadlifting. Anyway I think you guys are right about deadlifting more, I think partials and assisting exercises have there place to break through plateaus, but cannot replace deadlifting completely.

I did find westside a bit tough to understand when it came to deadlifting.

[ilovethe80s]

From what I've read, the newer you are to lifting, the more often you incorporate the main lifts (westside). I would think this would apply if you are making great linear gains as well. It is just methods, so you make them work for you. The idea is you start to regress if you train a lift to your max more than a couple of weeks in a row, so you vary to continue to make progress. But if you're making progress, why change.

They also say that when training 'around' your main lifts, to replicate the move of the lift you are attempting to improve in the lift you are actually doing. So in doing a good morning to raise the dead, you're not just doing a good morning for the sake of doing a good morning. Think about the action of the dead throughout and feel how it relates to what you are doing.

For me personally, I test my deadlift once every couple of months and don't pull other than that (aside from speed pull cycles close to a meet). Not because I am trying to play by westside rules, but that is what fits for me. (I have hernias, organ displacement and the recovery capabilities of a 90 year old woman to boot, and deadlifting frequently doesn't do me any favors). Luckily my dead is the one lift that does not need much technical work, and the speed cycles are the perfect refresher to keep it intact without killing me. Heavy good mornings actually do take the place for me where I guess most programs would have you pulling, they fill in the gaps nicely and my dead has gone up just about 100 pounds over the last year. So that bit of (outdated) westside methodology was something I could apply to work for me. But that is me though, something totally different might work for you.

[StrongmanSteve]

I've gotten to where I am now through the "Big 5" compounds alone.

[runtocatch]

From what I've read, the newer you are to lifting, the more often you incorporate the main lifts (westside). I would think this would apply if you are making great linear gains as well. It is just methods, so you make them work for you. The idea is you start to regress if you train a lift to your max more than a couple of weeks in a row, so you vary to continue to make progress. But if you're making progress, why change.

They also say that when training 'around' your main lifts, to replicate the move of the lift you are attempting to improve in the lift you are actually doing. So in doing a good morning to raise the dead, you're not just doing a good morning for the sake of doing a good morning. Think about the action of the dead throughout and feel how it relates to what you are doing.

For me personally, I test my deadlift once every couple of months and don't pull other than that (aside from speed pull cycles close to a meet). Not because I am trying to play by westside rules, but that is what fits for me. (I have hernias, organ displacement and the recovery capabilities of a 90 year old woman to boot, and deadlifting frequently doesn't do me any favors). Luckily my dead is the one lift that does not need much technical work, and the speed cycles are the perfect refresher to keep it intact without killing me. Heavy good mornings actually do take the place for me where I guess most programs would have you pulling, they fill in the gaps nicely and my dead has gone up just about 100 pounds over the last year. So that bit of (outdated) westside methodology was something I could apply to work for me. But that is me though, something totally different might work for you.

Great post.

[androstan]

when i got stuck conventional i went sumo. I have very long legs, i think it works more in my favor. I train DL 1-2/week; some say you don't need to train it much which is also true - 6 weeks off and pulled a PR - WTF?!! I like it too much to not train it regularly. I hate good mornings, they're in my program but feel I'll be subbing them for more DLs. I would usually DL, pin pull and GM in a week but hey; would rather DL twice and do pin pulls too.

On the topic of conven v. sumo, the following was in a Pure Power Magazine article a while back:

1. Secure a tape measure to the wall with the zero end at the floor. Make sure the metric side (centimeters) is what you are using.

2. Stand with your back against the wall. Measure from the top of your shoulder to the floor. This will give you your total body measurement.

3. With a straight arm and your hand in a fist, measure from the top of your shoulder to the middle of your fist. This is your total arm length.

4. Raise your thigh to determine where your thigh rotates into your pelvis. Once located, lower your leg to the floor and measure from the top of the shoulder to this point. This is your trunk length. Also, subtract this measurement from your total body measurement to give you your lower body length.

Record these measurements and perform the following calculations:

1. Divide "trunk length" by "arm length".
2. Divide "trunk length" by "lower body length".

The resultant numbers will tell you the following:

1. Arm to trunk length ratio. Example: If your truk is 50 cm and your armi is 65 cm, divide 65 into 50=0.77. This indicates that your trunk is 77% of your arm length or that your arm is 23% longer than your trunk.

2. Trunk to lower body length ratio.

These numbers will help you determine which method, conventional or sumo, will allow you to lift the most weight by biomechanical standards.

CONVENTIONAL
If your trunk to arm ratio is less than 0.82 and your trunk to lower body length is less than 0.55, you should consider the conventional style. With your arms longer than your trunk, you'll finish the pull with the bar below your hip joint. This finishing position indicates that the initial starting position of your trunk (trunk angle) will be larger (more upright). This would indicate more activity from the quads as well as the hamstrings and glutes. A more upright trunk angle will also create a larger knee angle at the starting position, making the shift of the shoulders, knee, and hip more uniform-that is, they rotate in a biomechanically correct sequence.

SUMO
If your ratios are larger than 0.82 and 0.55, the initial starting angle of your trunk would be smaller (more inclined) and will therefore position you in a biomechanically ineffecient position. With your trunk more inclined, the activity of your trunk and hip extension muscles will have to follow a different, more inefficient pattern. This will basically result in increased activity from your hamstrings and glutes and decreased activity from the quads. This will also increase stress on your erectors and particularly the lower back and could cause rounding of your upper back. The solution would be sumo.

[MikeTuchscherer]

If it's at all possible for you to train the lifts frequently, I strongly suggest doing so. To a great extent, strength is a skill and it must be practiced to be developed. If you like to think of it in terms of weaknesses, consider this: what will train your legs, hips, back, and grip in exactly the same way as the deadlift? Deadlifting. And close variations of the deadlift.

I know with the guys that I coach, I do my very best to get them training the lifts multiple times per week and it's worked really well. There are those who, for whatever reason, can't handle that and for those people we back things off. But over time we get them in better shape and increase the frequency of practice for the contest lifts and their close relatives because that is what has built the most strength.

[Torrtrefireto]

If it's at all possible for you to train the lifts frequently, I strongly suggest doing so. To a great extent, strength is a skill and it must be practiced to be developed. If you like to think of it in terms of weaknesses, consider this: what will train your legs, hips, back, and grip in exactly the same way as the deadlift? Deadlifting. And close variations of the deadlift.

I know with the guys that I coach, I do my very best to get them training the lifts multiple times per week and it's worked really well. There are those who, for whatever reason, can't handle that and for those people we back things off. But over time we get them in better shape and increase the frequency of practice for the contest lifts and their close relatives because that is what has built the most strength.

Assuming one works up to it, and their recovery and ability to handle volume is good, is there a ceiling number of sessions per week with the lifts?

Right now I am happy squatting and benching 3x a week, but am trying to figure out a way to pull (sumo) 3x a week too. Seems much less common but I think I can handle it. At what point would you assume for most people there are diminishing returns?

[MikeTuchscherer]

I'm not really sure, though there seem to be lots of dependent variables here.
I have a friend of mine who experimented with some Bulgarian-influenced training. He squatted to a max everyday plus five grind-em-out drop sets. I believe he also deadlifted fairly heavy twice a week as well. He made fantastic progress for the three months or so that he did this. But when he tried pushing to twice-a-day squatting, it all came crashing down. So that is his limit (for now at least).

I'm not saying that everyone can train that way. I'm not saying anyone should train that way. But it gives a good example of how far you can take the specificity and frequency thing if you want. I personally don't have the desire or the time available to do that, so I don't.

I guess a more direct answer to your question though... I would ease into it and carefully track your progress. If you notice that your lifts aren't improving as much, then back things off. Of course you don't have to push it as far as you physically can go, but if you want to, that's how I'd do it.

[Torrtrefireto]

I'm not really sure, though there seem to be lots of dependent variables here.
I have a friend of mine who experimented with some Bulgarian-influenced training. He squatted to a max everyday plus five grind-em-out drop sets. I believe he also deadlifted fairly heavy twice a week as well. He made fantastic progress for the three months or so that he did this. But when he tried pushing to twice-a-day squatting, it all came crashing down. So that is his limit (for now at least).

I'm not saying that everyone can train that way. I'm not saying anyone should train that way. But it gives a good example of how far you can take the specificity and frequency thing if you want. I personally don't have the desire or the time available to do that, so I don't.

I guess a more direct answer to your question though... I would ease into it and carefully track your progress. If you notice that your lifts aren't improving as much, then back things off. Of course you don't have to push it as far as you physically can go, but if you want to, that's how I'd do it.

Thanks for your input. I believe I've spoken to the same friend (MZ initials?), and he more or less told me that the limiting factor in the frequency of deads is how much grinding you do. As of now I typically squat/bench for about 50 working reps a week at an average of 75% 1rm (obviously it varies) and have tinkered around with introducing 3x a week deads going about 25 reps a week and 70% 1rm.

I'm just trying to make my squat to deadlift ratio less abysmal, there's a chance I'll squat 200lbs over my dead in a few weeks in single ply usapl

[arian11]

I'm not really sure, though there seem to be lots of dependent variables here.
I have a friend of mine who experimented with some Bulgarian-influenced training. He squatted to a max everyday plus five grind-em-out drop sets. I believe he also deadlifted fairly heavy twice a week as well. He made fantastic progress for the three months or so that he did this. But when he tried pushing to twice-a-day squatting, it all came crashing down. So that is his limit (for now at least).

I'm not saying that everyone can train that way. I'm not saying anyone should train that way. But it gives a good example of how far you can take the specificity and frequency thing if you want. I personally don't have the desire or the time available to do that, so I don't.

I guess a more direct answer to your question though... I would ease into it and carefully track your progress. If you notice that your lifts aren't improving as much, then back things off. Of course you don't have to push it as far as you physically can go, but if you want to, that's how I'd do it.

Thanks for your input. I believe I've spoken to the same friend (MZ initials?), and he more or less told me that the limiting factor in the frequency of deads is how much grinding you do. As of now I typically squat/bench for about 50 working reps a week at an average of 75% 1rm (obviously it varies) and have tinkered around with introducing 3x a week deads going about 25 reps a week and 70% 1rm.

I'm just trying to make my squat to deadlift ratio less abysmal, there's a chance I'll squat 200lbs over my dead in a few weeks in single ply usapl

Yea, you two are talking about the same person. As Mike T mentioned, there are alot of dependent variables. One I would think is your technique and how much that technique breaks down during heavy fatigue. Dr. Z can max out every day and every day I watched him his technique looks just as good as when he was squatting 3x a week with sub-maximal weights. On the other hand, someone like me or friends that tried maxing every day do not have as good technique and our technique breaks down at maximal weights. I tip forward on my squats and round my lower back on deadlifts, thus putting a ton of unnecessary stress on my lower back which limits my ceiling for increased frequency/volume. The most I've gotten up to was squatting, benching, and deadlifting 3x a week or squatting 4-5x a week while benching 2x a week and no deadlifting. EDIT: And this is at much lower weights than you so I figure my ceiling would be even lower if my maxes were 100-200 lbs higher.

[BombDonald]

and he more or less told me that the limiting factor in the frequency of deads is how much grinding you do.

That's a very interesting observation, will toss in my brain and think about that for a while.

[WannaBeATank]

That's a very interesting observation, will toss in my brain and think about that for a while.

That is a pretty crazy observation, and I have a crazy theory. Haha.

Usually people who are relatively "fast" lifters tend to be fast twitch dominant, and just generally fast overall. Lets say type 2 fast twitch. Does it fatigue them less, because they have the ability to apply so much force and deadlifting doesn't use that much force compared to something as fast as sprinting? They can generate so much power still, yet it's not as stressful as something like jumping/sprinting so they can do it more frequently? I'm not sure if what I'm saying will make sense to anyone but myself because of how poorly this paragraph is constructed, but I think that could be a reason. Maybe.

[MikeTuchscherer]

Definitely interesting about the grinding. I think I would take it a slightly different direction and link it to emotional arousal. If you're getting psyched up, it's going to be more taxing. If you're about to attempt a tough weight that will require you to grind, it will naturally cause some anxiety, making it more taxing. But as with any complex process, I think there is more than one component to the stress/recovery cycle that has an effect. Both factors probably cause issues.

Technique breakdown is another interesting piece to the puzzle too and I pretty much agree with your assessments. I would also suggest avoiding technique breakdown in your training, which it sounds like you've done anyway. The hope is over time, you'll develop your ability to strain while maintaining proper positioning. I don't think ugly grinds is a genetic trait or anything. It's probably within your capacity to change. Besides, the frequencies you mention are not small. Training the three powerlifts 3x weekly is something I'd term pretty high frequency. I don't think having higher maxes will matter that much. A 1RM feels like a 1RM. At the last seminar we did, someone asked Eddy Coan what it felt like to squat 1000 pounds. He said, "How much can you squat?" They said, "500." Eddy said, "It felt like squatting 500 pounds."

[ErickStevens]

in after Mike T

[Torrtrefireto]

That is a pretty crazy observation, and I have a crazy theory. Haha.

Usually people who are relatively "fast" lifters tend to be fast twitch dominant, and just generally fast overall. Lets say type 2 fast twitch. Does it fatigue them less, because they have the ability to apply so much force and deadlifting doesn't use that much force compared to something as fast as sprinting? They can generate so much power still, yet it's not as stressful as something like jumping/sprinting so they can do it more frequently? I'm not sure if what I'm saying will make sense to anyone but myself because of how poorly this paragraph is constructed, but I think that could be a reason. Maybe.

Deadlifting will generate more muscle force than sprinting because sprinting is too fast (force/velocity curve). If you mean outside forces, then the forces your knees/hips are subjected to in sprinting are probably higher than in deadlifting, they'll also have higher frequencies (hz) which I saw a presentation on earlier this year suggesting frequency of the forces are more important than the magnitude of force. I know gymnasts can have a ground reaction force of 14x bodyweight when they land, so that's higher than any lifter will ever feel. I'd imagine that your muscle fiber typing isn't that big of a contribution, and faster lifters can do more because they typically have technique that lends itself to higher frequency. Big ol' 1-2x a week boys usually squat wider and don't have an arch (huge generalization here I know) so that'll take more of a toll than little old me who moves the bar 3'' when he benches and doesn't wear his groin out when he squats, and squats with a bounce

Definitely interesting about the grinding. I think I would take it a slightly different direction and link it to emotional arousal. If you're getting psyched up, it's going to be more taxing. If you're about to attempt a tough weight that will require you to grind, it will naturally cause some anxiety, making it more taxing. But as with any complex process, I think there is more than one component to the stress/recovery cycle that has an effect. Both factors probably cause issues.

Technique breakdown is another interesting piece to the puzzle too and I pretty much agree with your assessments. I would also suggest avoiding technique breakdown in your training, which it sounds like you've done anyway. The hope is over time, you'll develop your ability to strain while maintaining proper positioning. I don't think ugly grinds is a genetic trait or anything. It's probably within your capacity to change. Besides, the frequencies you mention are not small. Training the three powerlifts 3x weekly is something I'd term pretty high frequency. I don't think having higher maxes will matter that much. A 1RM feels like a 1RM. At the last seminar we did, someone asked Eddy Coan what it felt like to squat 1000 pounds. He said, "How much can you squat?" They said, "500." Eddy said, "It felt like squatting 500 pounds."

I understand. One of the reasons I plan to keep the deads at a lower intensity is because they do break down a lot worse with higher weights than my squat and bench. Squat and bench just decrease in speed, deadlift the bar drifts further forward as I move up in weight. Thanks a lot

[arian11]

Deadlifting will generate more muscle force than sprinting because sprinting is too fast (force/velocity curve). If you mean outside forces, then the forces your knees/hips are subjected to in sprinting are probably higher than in deadlifting, they'll also have higher frequencies (hz) which I saw a presentation on earlier this year suggesting frequency of the forces are more important than the magnitude of force. I know gymnasts can have a ground reaction force of 14x bodyweight when they land, so that's higher than any lifter will ever feel. I'd imagine that your muscle fiber typing isn't that big of a contribution, and faster lifters can do more because they typically have technique that lends itself to higher frequency. Big ol' 1-2x a week boys usually squat wider and don't have an arch (huge generalization here I know) so that'll take more of a toll than little old me who moves the bar 3'' when he benches and doesn't wear his groin out when he squats, and squats with a bounce

I understand. One of the reasons I plan to keep the deads at a lower intensity is because they do break down a lot worse with higher weights than my squat and bench. Squat and bench just decrease in speed, deadlift the bar drifts further forward as I move up in weight. Thanks a lot

Yea and it seems like you can get more gains on your deadlift from doing assistance exercises rather than the main lift compared to squat and bench. So if you can hit squats/GMs/GHRs with more frequency than deadlift and get stronger than that may be the path to go. And then use your deadlift sessions to hone in technique at weights near where you would break down. Atleast that's what I'm trying. Dropping from deadlifting 3x a week only singles to deadlifting 1x a week for reps. And then adding in front squats, RDLs, GHRs, and upper back work.

[Torrtrefireto]

Yea and it seems like you can get more gains on your deadlift from doing assistance exercises rather than the main lift compared to squat and bench. So if you can hit squats/GMs/GHRs with more frequency than deadlift and get stronger than that may be the path to go. And then use your deadlift sessions to hone in technique at weights near where you would break down. Atleast that's what I'm trying. Dropping from deadlifting 3x a week only singles to deadlifting 1x a week for reps. And then adding in front squats, RDLs, GHRs, and upper back work.

Things that I don't do
Squat/Bench/Dead/Pulldowns/Rows/Calves (for tha ladies)

[arian11]

Things that I don't do
Squat/Bench/Dead/Pulldowns/Rows/Calves (for tha ladies)

Same here. I always stuck to squat, bench, deadlift, overhead press, pullups. Then I expanded my world and added in some board press, push press, and close grip. And look at my numbers, my squat is almost equaling my deadlift. Clearly just deadlifting, even 3x a week, is not enough for my deadlift. Thus I quit being a baby and added in front squats, RDLs, and GHRs to my new cycle. We'll see what results I get.