Please Read if you plan on taking Superdrol, Phera-Plex, etc.

ScrillaKeith · 11-29-2005, 05:01 PM

This thread is intended to answer all the repetitive questions about what support supplements are needed for a cycle of (insert product name here). I know Krzna and others had some great threads too, which did lower the amount of dumb questions, but I still see people asking about dosages and saying "Why do I need to take that" or "I don't think I'll need that." At least now you can see what you should at least have on hand. I know it won't eliminate all the questions, but at least they can be redirected here. For PCT or Superdrol specific questions refer to the links. I'm sure this is not complete,but it took me a fair amount of free time, so if any one has anything to add, please do

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Some of the common side effects of Superdrol and other substances and how to combat them.

High Blood-Pressure: A common side effect with most of the new "designer steroids" and PH/Steroids in general. Usually noticeable by headaches, but it's not a bad idea to monitor your BP while on cycle.
Celery Seed Extract
DOSAGE: 75-150mg twice daily at signs of high BP, or 8 celery ribs/day
INFO: Celery seed contains a compound called 3nB (3-n-butylphthalide). 3nB lowers blood pressure by acting as a diuretic as well as a vasodilator. 3nB has been shown to lower blood pressure in animal studies by 12-14% as well as lowering cholesterol by 7%. (1)

Hawthorne Berry
DOSAGE: 565-1500mg/day
INFO: Since the 19th century hawthorne berries have been used to support the heart, and to normalize cardiovascular functions. Hawthorne berry helps protect the arterial walls, can dilate (enlarge) coronary blood vessels (the vessels supplying the heart with vital oxygen, blood, and nutrients), and strengthens the heart's pumping ability. (2)

Liver and Kidney Toxicity: Most of the orals on the market are 17aa methylated. Since most of us are not chemists all you need to know is that they are toxic and need to be processed through the liver. Therefore liver protection is mandatory.
Milk Thistle
DOSAGE: 750-1200mg/day (Milk Thistle is usually "pre-loaded" into the system for ~1 week before a cycle)
INFO: Milk thistle nutritionally supports the liver's ability to maintain normal liver function. It has shown positive effects in treating nearly every known form of liver disease, including cirrhosis, hepatitis, necroses, and liver damage due to drug and alcohol abuse. Milk thistle works due to its ability to inhibit the factors responsible for liver damage, coupled with the fact it stimulates production of new liver cells to replace old damaged ones.
Milk thistle has been proven to protect the liver from damage. The detrimental effects of environmental toxins, alcohol, drugs and chemotherapy may be countered with this valuable herb. The active chemical component in the herb is silybin, which functions as an antioxidant and is one of the most potent liver protective agents known. Clinical trials have proven silybin to be effective in treating chronic liver diseases and in protecting the liver from toxic chemicals. An injection of silybin is a proven antidote for poisoning with the Deathcap mushroom (Amanita phalloides). (3)
K-R-ALA
DOSAGE: 100-200mg 3 times a day
INFO: KR-ALA is a powerful antioxidant. You may recognize it from your NO booster's ingredients list, but it can also be used alongside Milk Thistle for liver protection.

High LDL Cholesterol:The level of LDL in a person's blood is linked to atherosclerosis (narrowing of the blood vessels due to build up of lipids, sometimes known as "hardening of the arteries"). Having a high level of LDL cholesterol puts a person at risk of having coronary heart disease. (5)
Anabolic steroid (and prohormone) use can lead to a number of dangerous side effects including, lowered levels of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, which benefits the heart, and lowered levels of harmful low-density lipoprotein; stimulation of prostate tumors; clotting disorders, and liver problems. (10)

Fish Oil
DOSAGE: 3-10g/day
INFO: Fish Oil is a supplement many of you are probably already taking and should be if you aren't. I don't think there is any need to reiterate it's benifits here.

Policosanol
DOSAGE: 10-20mg twice a day
INFO: Policosanol has been associated with lower levels of LDL or "bad" cholesterol. Patients who have taken Policosanol have also shown increased levels of high-density lipoprotein or HDL, the "good" cholesterol. (5) Some 179 patients aged 60-78 years with high cholesterol and high risk for heart disease participated in a 30 week trial. When patients were treated with 5 mg per day of policosanol for 12 weeks, LDL cholesterol dropped 17 percent and total cholesterol decreased 13 percent. Levels of beneficial HDL cholesterol rose 14 percent. When policosanol intake was increased to 10 mg per day the results were even more impressive: LDL dropped 24 percent, total cholesterol decreased 16 percent and HDL rose a whopping 29 percent. (6)

Coq10
DOSAGE: 30-150mg/day (Most doctors recommend that CoQ10 be taken with meals to improve absorption. Generally it takes one to three months to experience benefits from supplementation, and as long as six months for maximal effects to occur.(7))
INFO: Coenzyme Q10 is an antioxidant. It is most commonly used to prevent and treat cardiovascular disease including congestive heart failure, angina, high blood pressure and cardiomyopathy. Co Q10 has also been used for gum disease, HIV, cancer, weight loss and diabetes mellitus. (8)
Coenzyme Q10 supplementation shows promise as an inhibitor of LDL oxidation and atherosclerosis.
In a well-controlled study, 19 patients who were expected to die from heart failure rebounded with an "extraordinary clinical improvement," according to Folkers and Langsjoen's report in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA (June 1985;82:4240-4).

Red Yeast Rice
DOSAGE: 600-1200mg twice a day (Take red yeast rice extract with food to reduce the risk of digestive upset. (9))
INFO: In 2001, red yeast rice extract, a "natural" unregulated nutritional supplement, was withdrawn by the FDA. This decision followed the agency's determination that it was chemically too similar to the prescription statin medication Mevacor, and thus should be classified as a "drug," which by law is strictly controlled by the federal government. (9)
As a substance, red yeast rice extract has a number of heart-healthy benefits: It seems to help reduce total cholesterol levels, lower levels of LDL ("bad") cholesterol, increase levels of HDL ("good") cholesterol, and lower levels of unhealthy fats called triglycerides. It appears to accomplish this by restricting the liver's production of cholesterol.
Most studies of the extract that showed a substantial cholesterol-lowering effect (reduction of 25 to 40 points) included such lifestyle measures.
If you choose to incorporate red yeast rice into your cholesterol-lowering program, it is very important to remember that you are taking a substance that acts identically in the body to the prescription statin drugs. This means that red yeast rice can cause the same side effects (mild gastrointestinal upset and possible changes in liver enzymes, or a muscle condition called rhabdomyolysis). Research studies have shown red yeast rice to be remarkably safe, but of course, you should not use it if you are also taking a prescription statin. (9)
Avoid drinking more than two alcoholic drinks a day or large amounts of grapefruit juice while taking red yeast rice extract.
Side effects with red yeast rice extract have been reported but tend to be mild and resolve quickly once you stop taking it. These include headache, dizziness, heartburn, gas, and digestive tract discomfort. Stop taking red yeast rice extract and consult a doctor promptly if you experience any side effects that seem more severe or persistent than these.
Keep in mind that, in theory, the statins in red yeast rice extract pose the risk of rare but serious reactions, including skeletal muscle damage, liver damage, and kidney toxicity. Approximately 1% to 2% of people taking the drug lovastatin have such reactions. Symptoms may include unexplained weakness, muscle pains and tenderness, and other flu-like symptoms. It's still unclear whether these types of reactions occur with people taking standardized red yeast rice extract, however. In a recent, 12-week clinical trial, for example, liver and kidney function in the participants remained normal. (9)

ScrillaKeith · 11-29-2005, 05:02 PM

...continued

NAC
DOSAGE: ~1000mg
INFO: N-acetylcysteine (commonly called NAC) is a form of the amino acid cysteine. NAC is an antioxidant that has been shown to prevent the oxidization of LDL cholesterol from the material that lines blood vessels. (4)

Prostate Enlargement: The primary cause of hair loss as well as prostate enlargement resultant of prohormone use is increased quantities of DHT in the scalp and prostate respectively. Obviously, this makes DHT precursors an unwise decision if hair loss or prostate enlargement is a significant concern. Most prohormones with the possible exception of 19Nor have the ability to significantly increase DHT, and in this case 1,4 andro is again on the safer side. (11)

Saw Palmetto
DOSAGE: No more than 160mg twice or 320mg/day (To minimize the risk of stomach upset, take saw palmetto with breakfast and dinner. (13))
INFO: For men it treats an enlarged and weakened prostate gland. It has shown significant action in treatment of conditions associated with benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH). Saw palmetto extract works to prevent testosterone from converting into dihydrotestosterone, the hormone thought to cause prostrate cells to multiply, leading to an enlarged prostate. It is chiefly used as a diuretic and to tone the bladder by improving urinary flow, and relieving strain. Regular use of saw palmetto may decrease urinary frequency, especially during the night, by allowing complete bladder expulsion and reducing inflammation of the bladder and enlarged prostrate.
Saw palmetto inhibits androgen and estrogen receptor activity and may be beneficial for both sexes in balancing the hormones. Because of it hormonal effects it can aid the thyroid in regulating sexual development and normalizing activity of those glands and organs. (12)

Lower Back Pain: Most of you that have experience with Superdrol or Phera-Plex (and M1T, Dbol, etc.) are probably all too familiar with the lower "back pumps." While they may not be your biggest concern they can certainly be annoying if not debilitating, so it's good to have something on hand for when it pops up. Try these before you start popping Advils.
Taurine
DOSAGE: 2-6g
INFO: Taurine is an amino acid. It is an osmoregulator of cell-volume, or, in other words, a promoter of cellular hydration. Depletion of intracellular taurine concentrations generally causes the reverse: cell-dehydration.

Magnesium
DOSAGE: 500-800mg
INFO: Magnesium is needed for more than 300 biochemical reactions in the body. It helps maintain normal muscle and nerve function, keeps heart rhythm steady, and bones strong. It is also involved in energy metabolism and protein synthesis.(15)
I am unsure as to how magnesium eases back pumps, but many people have used it along with taurine and had great success.

Cramping
Potassium
DOSAGE: 2-3g or a couple bananas
INFO: Cramping is often caused by an electrolyte imbalance.

Insomnia: Many Superdrol users have reported difficulty sleeping.
Melatonin
DOSAGE: 1.5-3g taken before bed
INFO: Melatonin is the all-natural nightcap. It's secreted by the pineal gland, a pea-size structure at the center of the brain, as our eyes register the fall of darkness. At night melatonin is produced to help our bodies regulate our sleep-wake cycles. (14)

Stiff or Dry/Sore Joints:
Glucosamin/MSM/Chondroitin
DOSAGE: Usually around 1500/1000/1200mg respectively
INFO: Most of you are probably familiar with these supplements, but what some people seem to miss is that they are not going to be very effective at the onset of joint soreness, because it usually takes 1-2 months for these supplements to be maximally effective.

LINKS:
Phera-Plex CheatSheet by Krzna: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=77
Superdrol for Dummies by Krzna: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=519245
Big Cat's The Real Superdrol Write-up: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=607842
Krzna's PCT FAQ: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=507839
Iron Pimper's PCT thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=526986
Dosquito's Very Informative

FAQ: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=637013
Prohormones, Prosteroids & Designer Steroids by Author Rea: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/author23.htm
Big Cat's Steroid/PH FAQ: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catq.htm
Lipid Profile Results: http://www.nutritionalsupplements.co...ic.php?t=13711
DHT- Is It All Bad? By Patrick Arnold: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dht.htm

Sources:
1. Celery Extract, Dr. Michael T. Murray
2. Hawthorne Berry, Clayton South, Clayton South's Health Facts
3. Herbal Information Center, http://www.kcweb.com/herb/milkt.htm
4. Whole Health Md, http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshel...25,809,00.html
5. What Is Policosanol?, www.loweringcholesterol.net
6. Policosanol: The Natural Way To Optimize LDL, Health Journal
7. Coenzyme Q10, www.loweringcholesterol.net
8. Information About Coenzyme Q10, Alternative Medicine, About.com
9. Whole Health Md, http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshel...,10054,00.html
10. Anabolic Steroids, Lipid Minitopics, Chembook, Elmhurst College, http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/558anabolic.html
11. NH Nutrition Forums, http://www.nhnutrition.com/forums/ar....php?t-22.html
12. Herbal Information Center, http://www.kcweb.com/herb/sawpalm.htm
13. Whole Health Md, http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshel...25,819,00.html
14. Melatonin FAQ, Melatonin.com
15. Product FAQ, Magnesium Info, Bodybuilding.com

gotmuscle? · 11-29-2005, 05:07 PM

No offense, but this info has already been posted on a bunch of different threads. Why post something that has been posted a thousand times? Your doing the same thing with the answers that the people are with the "dumb questions".

Actionbrett · 11-29-2005, 05:12 PM

Excellent, i needed to know all that stuff.

Im also interested in the side effects too, these happen dureing the cycle, after the cycle, 6 months after your finsihed with a cycle? Or do they only happen when the wrong supplements are takeing with SD?

Diesel025 · 11-29-2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotmuscle?

No offense, but this info has already been posted on a bunch of different threads. Why post something that has been posted a thousand times? Your doing the same thing with the answers that the people are with the "dumb questions".

I think it's posts like this that clutter up quality information making it hard for people to get to the actual information of good threads.

Pace · 11-29-2005, 05:27 PM

Not bad.

collegeHULK · 11-29-2005, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel025

I think it's posts like this that clutter up quality information making it hard for people to get to the actual information of good threads.

bull****. its posts like this that make things more clear. i love this thread

xGhostinGx · 11-29-2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by collegeHULK

bull****. its posts like this that make things more clear. i love this thread

LOL. I think he was talking to GM?.

Ruby Soho · 11-29-2005, 05:51 PM

Great info. I think you could also add a section on some of the more visible sides, like male pattern baldness and acne. But this is a great post. I hope the noobs read it before posting.

G-dog · 11-29-2005, 06:00 PM

Thanks for the summary. I'm going to print out the top so I have it handy without having to use SEARCH-TECH.

Diesel025 · 11-29-2005, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by collegeHULK

bull****. its posts like this that make things more clear. i love this thread

I was agreeing with you.

I found this thread very well organized and informative....one I would recommend everyone with question on the subject to read.

Flex Daddy · 11-29-2005, 06:41 PM

Good stuff
I was about to start a pp/sd cycle and i'm glad all the information is neatly laid out

Pace · 11-29-2005, 06:43 PM

So many people want to run pp/sd, I think your liver is going to be damged.

dtrain13 · 11-29-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotmuscle?

No offense, but this info has already been posted on a bunch of different threads. Why post something that has been posted a thousand times? Your doing the same thing with the answers that the people are with the "dumb questions".

FYI noobs refuse to search for said info and yes it has been posted in many threads however what he has done is compiled all the info into one thread and that is why I will rep him. So in essence I am telling you that you need to go ahead and STFU!

Pace · 11-29-2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtrain13

FYI noobs refuse to search for said info and yes it has been posted in many threads however what he has done is compiled all the info into one thread and that is why I will rep him. So in essence I am telling you that you need to go ahead and STFU!

As I said not Bad.

jmil · 11-29-2005, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtrain13

FYI noobs refuse to search for said info and yes it has been posted in many threads however what he has done is compiled all the info into one thread and that is why I will rep him. So in essence I am telling you that you need to go ahead and STFU!

Agreed, great job Scrilla.

Flex Daddy · 11-29-2005, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pace

So many people want to run pp/sd, I think your liver is going to be damged.

Pray for me

I hope Canada has a good health care system

B-baldy · 11-29-2005, 07:15 PM

Nice. This post saves a lot of crossreferencing and research time . Thank you sir

kasso99 · 11-29-2005, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel025

I think it's posts like this that clutter up quality information making it hard for people to get to the actual information of good threads.

Unlike the bundle of quality in your post history:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=408
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=413

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotmuscle?

Why post something that has been posted a thousand times? Your doing the same thing with the answers that the people are with the "dumb questions".

Hypocrite.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...64&postcount=1

This is a quality post, guys. Give ScrillaKeith a break.

ripped edges · 11-29-2005, 07:51 PM

Good job man, I don't care how many times this info has been posted up...it helps and will educate others......GOOD JOB!

sean4104 · 11-29-2005, 07:58 PM

nice post man. pay no heed to the ass clowns that feel that this is clutter. real informative, real simple. reps.

ScrillaKeith · 11-29-2005, 08:28 PM

I'm well aware that most of this info has been posted before, but never all in one place. 90% of this forum is repetitive clutter anyways. At least now all this info is in one place so I can just direct people here. If you don't like what I posted, I'm sorry you feel that way, but if one person finds it useful, then I don't feel like I wasted my time.

ScrillaKeith · 11-29-2005, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Actionbrett

Excellent, i needed to know all that stuff.

Im also interested in the side effects too, these happen dureing the cycle, after the cycle, 6 months after your finsihed with a cycle? Or do they only happen when the wrong supplements are takeing with SD?

The sides mentioned in this thread were either experienced by me or observed in others during and/or shortly after the cycle.

ScrillaKeith · 11-29-2005, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruby Soho

Great info. I think you could also add a section on some of the more visible sides, like male pattern baldness and acne. But this is a great post. I hope the noobs read it before posting.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll look into adding something on that.

nick912 · 11-29-2005, 09:17 PM

very nice thread!

Krzna · 11-29-2005, 11:58 PM

solid job buddy... great read.
i hope they sticky this

kappaz · 11-30-2005, 12:07 AM

Nice post. You might want to add pct information as well, to make it complete.

dtrain13 · 11-30-2005, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kappaz

Nice post. You might want to add pct information as well, to make it complete.

He provided links to the best PCT threads on the board in his post.

kappaz · 11-30-2005, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtrain13

He provided links to the best PCT threads on the board in his post.

Ok I see it now.. didn't read the links before when I glanced over his post

david4zero8 · 11-30-2005, 01:13 AM

At first i thought this would be another one of "those" threads, where people copy and paste info from other threads, trying to collect rep points.

After looking over your post, i have come to the conclusion that this is a great thread. You have outlined everything clearly and the format is great. For this reason, Reps for you.

(Dont expect this to reduce the amount of clutter in the supplement section about these OTC products though.)

Edit: The only problem i see with more threads like this is you're making it WAAAY too easy for people who shouldnt be using these products in the first place, to go ahead and use these products now. I personally feel that if they couldnt find the info in the other threads by doing a simple search, they really should skip these hormonal products. At least you're making it "safer" for them.