PCT products - What you need and why

[IronPimper]

First of all, let me say that this is not a thread all about PCT, as I think Krzna has created a very good thread to that end. However, as I've done more and more research and heard from, or read articles by, the true "legends" in the game, it seems as though there is a wealth of contradictory information that needs to be sorted out for our board. Let's start with the typical types of PCT drugs:

Suicide Inhibitors:

6-oxo - at based
Rebound XT - atd based
Kilosports Attack - atd based
Novedex XT - atd based
ALRI Ultra Hot - atd based
Arimidex (Anastrozole) - prescription

Serms:

Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate) - prescription
Clomid (clomiphene citrate) - prescription

LH mimitek:

HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin)

Natural Test Boosters:

Activate
Diesel Test
Blue Rhino

Other additions:

Fenugreek
Long Jack
Avena Sativa
DHEA
7-oxo-dhea (oral or transdermal)
Tribulus


Now as most of you know by now your pct will vary based on a few factors. The first is the length of your cycle. The longer your cycle is, the more suppression that occurs and the longer the body needs to recover. Secondly, the types of aas/ph/ps that you use. Obviously your ergomax cycle won't require the same pct as a cycle of test/tren/winny, which leads to my third point, which is the amount of drugs you are using, both in a mg sense and a one, two, or three ph/aas sense. I will discuss the different pct drugs taking into account all 3 variables above.

What are we trying to do during PCT? Our pct should have 3 goals.

1.) To increase production of Gnrh, and thereby LH FSH, in order to increase test production.

2.) To control the effects of circulating estrogen in the body during a time of zero-low test production.

3.) To return testicular mass in an effort to maximize the increase in LH and Fsh in order to maximize test production.

These three goals mean addressing the two negative feedback loops. In order to do this, we must discuss the products that can help, and how to use them.

6-oxo - 6 oxo is a suicide inhibitor that binds to the enzymes in your body making them inactive. When this occurs the body's natural response is to release Gnrh, which stimulates LH production, and thus an increase in test.

Why is it no longer used as frequently as other products: 6-oxo was the first over the counter suicide inhibitor that actually worked. Unfortunately, it has since been surpassed by stronger ai's that are atd based. In fact, technically we could call 6-oxo "AT" which simply tells you that it does not have everything that "ATD" has to offer us. The other drawback was that 600mg daily were needed for AT based ai's, where as 100mg of ATD will yield better results.

ATD products - ATD is a more advanced ai that also binds to the enzyme rendering it inactive. The difference being two fold. Firstly, atd products are 2.8 times more powerful than at based products. Secondly, atd also addressess the androgen negative feedback loop as well as the estrogen negative feedback loop.

Why isn't it used as much as nolva and clomid: ATD is a rather new product. Science certainly states that it is the best pct product, but nolva and clomid are tried and true, and have been staples of pct protocols for years. Of course there is also the resistance to change, which is why, regardless of sciene, many people will use nolva no matter what.

Nolva and Clomid - Serms are anti-estrogens that are selective in the tissue where the bind. Nolva binds to estrogen receptors in the breast and bone, and clomid in the suprapituitary. Both of these drugs block estrogen receptors which renders circulating estrogen useless. The do not eliminate circulating estrogen, as they do not bind to the enzymes.

Why are they so popular: Serms have been around for many years. They are known, especially clomid, for creating a huge increase in LH, while blocking estrogen. They have often been used in combination to maximize the anti-estrogen effects in as much tissue as possible, while also maximizing the production of LH.

HCG - HCG is an LH mimitek. When injected it is the equivalent of sending huge amounts of lh directly to the testes. When this occurs test production is directly stimulated in the testes. HCG can be used on cycle to maintain testicular mass by sending regular levels of lh to the testes on a bu weekly schedule. It is often continued into pct in order to maintain high lh levels and testicular mass.

Why don't we hear much about it: HCG is by injection only, and it's illegal. While being quite useful, it is not an option for everyone.

So, where do we stand? Well, despite the bb.com consensus, nolva and clomid are junk. We should all be using a strong atd dose for the best results, but why? Let me explain...

[IronPimper]

While nolva and clomid are quite popular, they have several drawbacks. Firstly, both nolva and clomid show an affinity for increasing shbg. It should be noted that clomid raises levels of shbg more so than nolva. If you are not familiar with the effects of elevated shbg, let me help. When nolva and clomid increase lh and fsh, they stimulate more production of test in the testes. When shbg increases the test produced in the body tends to be bound test. As we know, this is detrimental to our goals. We want free test, which only occurs when levels of test are elevated, but shbg remains low.

Another drawback is that nolva and clomid are extremely hepatoxic. That makes them less than optimal for use as pct to a methyl compound. Combining a 3-5 week cycle of a methylated aas/ph/ps with a pct of 3-5 weeks of clomid and/or nolva would be very taxing on the liver.

Clomid also has another problem. It should only be used for a week at most. While it is superior at stimulating lh production, it also decreases sensitivity in the pituitary to Gnrh. This means that as use of clomid continues, the pituitary will produce less lh despite the increase in Gnrh.

Nolva's last drawback is due to its very nature. Since it only blocks estrogen receptors, it allows circulating estrogen to continue to exist. If used for pct of an aromatizing drug, levels of circulating estrogen would be greatly increased when nolva usage was discontinued. Again, this is a less than desirable characteristic, as one of our main goals was to limit estrogen induces sides.

[dtrain13]

Great post Pimper.

[ekilla2003]

good thread and very knowledgeable

[IronPimper]

So, let's talk atd. Atd offers several advantages over our more traditional pct drugs. Firstly, atd does not show any affinity for increasing shbg. That means that while test levels continue to increase, there will be an abundance of free test. This allows us to better maintain gains, as well as strength during pct.

Secondly, atd has been shown to be equally as productive as nolva and clomid in stimulating the release of gnrh, and therefore, lh and fsh. Since atd binds directly to the enzyme, there is a decrease in actual levels of circulating estrogen, this is akin to nolva and clomid's action of binding to the receptor, except that it will drastically reduce the chance of estrogen rebound.

Thirdly, atd has the ability to address the androgen feedback loop. This means that atd will block the pituitary from receiving the signals that tell it to stop producing gnrh. This occurs when levels of androgens begin to increase greatly. That means that the pituitary will continue to produce more and more gnrh, therefore more and more lh and fsh. That will allow the testes to more test, and do so more rapidly.

As you can see, atd would be the better option for almost all pct protocols. Where nolva supposedly "shines" is in its ability to allow for the production of new estrogen. This allows for improvement in lipid profiles. This is, however, and ill conceived advantage. A steroidal ai, like atd, also allows for production of new estrogen. The only product I know of that does not allow for any increase in circulating estrogen is arimidex.

So, what do we need? Well, ideally any cycle/pct would include hcg. Since it is the only true lh mimitek out there, and when used in the correct doses is unsurpassed in its ability to maintain testicular mass and function. However, since this isn't an option for everyone, we need something else. I would suggest the use of an ATD product in conjunction with a few other products. A sample might look like so:

75mg atd + 50mg dhea + 1.8g fenugreek + 600mg 6-oxo
50mg atd + 75mg dhea + 2.4g fenugreek + 600mg 6-oxo
25mg atd + 100mg dhea + 3g fenugreek + 400mg 6-oxo
25mg atd + 3.6g fenugreek + 200mg 6-oxo

The combination of 6-oxo and an atd allows the atd to focus on the destruction of estrogens. The 6-oxo is then free to aid in the stimulation of lh and fsh. As neither 6-oxo or atd increase sbgh, there is no concern for desensitization of the pituitary. Therefore, and overload of lh stimulation would be beneficial to our goals. If one so desired, they could also add a cortisol control product, most notably 7-oxo-dhea, as well as a natural test booster. Natural test boosters generally increase free test as well, and do not show any affinity for increasig sbgh. Therefore, even more free test.

On a last note, ALR has noted that studies show that atd can be used on cycle, at about 75mg per day in order to maintain healthy testicular mass and function. I am slightly leary of this hypothesis, but I have not tried it on my own. Since atd does address both feedback loops, it is possible that it could be used on cycle to maintain healthy levels of lh production, though I am not sure, and would not want someone on a strong cycle to try this out.

We are now open to questions...

[IronPimper]

bump

[Outside backer]

wow very good freakin informative post.

another drawback to clomid is seeing trails. I see lots of trails early morning in minimal light, if i have any drinks ( no i dont get drunk social drinking ) its been 4 weeks since my last liquid clomid dose and i still see trails ever so often.



so what products do u reccomend iron not cloimd or nolva


hot? novedex? i hear activate is benefical as well.


what do u reccomend of those guys for someone coming off ergomax

i always use clomid and nolva but i think im gonna go the legal route


oh and hcg was the best for me but hard to obtain on a military base

[ekilla2003]

nolva and clomid are legal

[wiseguy1111]

Well done.

[ekilla2003]

its true

[Achilles_]

IronPimper is a pimp!

[ekilla2003]

Originally Posted by Achilles_

IronPimper is a pimp!

and let me guess your his hoe

[bbuild528]

Excellent post, hopefully this will start a great discussion on the subject rather than the trademark get nolva for pct posts.

[IronPimper]

Originally Posted by olb33

wow very good freakin informative post.

another drawback to clomid is seeing trails. I see lots of trails early morning in minimal light, if i have any drinks ( no i dont get drunk social drinking ) its been 4 weeks since my last liquid clomid dose and i still see trails ever so often.


so what products do u reccomend iron not cloimd or nolva

hot? novedex? i hear activate is benefical as well.

what do u reccomend of those guys for someone coming off ergomax

i always use clomid and nolva but i think im gonna go the legal route

oh and hcg was the best for me but hard to obtain on a military base

olb, i've heard of alot of people seeing trails, sometimes for weeks after pct with clomid. I need to do more reading about ergomax, as I would like to see what people's thoughts are about suppression and liver and lipid profiles. My first instinct is to say this, it won't take much.

I don't think that ergo will be too tough on lipids, and I don't think it will be too suppressive. I'd imagine if you did a fenu, atd, dhea, and zma pct for 3-4 weeks you'd be ok. If you wanted you could stack 6-oxo with rebound or novedex xt for a better stimulation of the pituitary. If you run a longer ergo cycle, or stack it with something, then you'd certainly want to run 6-oxo with a strong dose of rebound or something to make sure you get your nat. test production back fast.

Activate could be beneficial. I haven't used it, so i don't know, and i'd like to see the write up on it first. If it's as good as advertised, then you could probably do rebound, activate, fenugreek, and zma and be done with it. I've seen people get good results with activate on Am.com. I think it would be great if hcg was available as a transdermal or oral, it certainly is the gold standard for maintaining testicular mass and kickstarting test.

In terms of the atd products, if price is a concern, go with giant's atd or rebound xt. If you don't care about price, I tend to think that ultra hot is the better product, but you need to take 4-5 caps per night and that gets expensive.

[IronPimper]

Originally Posted by ekilla2003

nolva and clomid are legal

they are legal from a research standpoint. So, yes, you can buy them without getting into trouble with the law. However, if you take them in liquid form they taste like butthole, and some people have trouble with the mg/ml conversion. I'm not saying you can't use them, or that you definately should not, I would just like to open everyone's eyes to the idea that nolva is not the be all and end all of pct drugs.

[dtrain13]

Originally Posted by IronPimper

they are legal from a research standpoint. So, yes, you can buy them without getting into trouble with the law. However, if you take them in liquid form they taste like butthole, and some people have trouble with the mg/ml conversion. I'm not saying you can't use them, or that you definately should not, I would just like to open everyone's eyes to the idea that nolva is not the be all and end all of pct drugs.

Yes neither nolva or clomid are scheduled substances so posessing them is not illegal. Purchasing them is where you get into the grey area.

[ekilla2003]

Originally Posted by IronPimper

they are legal from a research standpoint. So, yes, you can buy them without getting into trouble with the law. However, if you take them in liquid form they taste like butthole, and some people have trouble with the mg/ml conversion. I'm not saying you can't use them, or that you definately should not, I would just like to open everyone's eyes to the idea that nolva is not the be all and end all of pct drugs.

well its legal and from my eyes the best pct product to use so why not

[ekilla2003]

Originally Posted by dtrain13

Yes neither nolva or clomid are scheduled substances so posessing them is not illegal. Purchasing them is where you get into the grey area.

youre right and there are plenty of trusted websites out there and its good to be safe than sorry even if it means taking a risk with the law its better than taking a risk with your own body

[IronPimper]

Originally Posted by ekilla2003

well its legal and from my eyes the best pct product to use so why not

You are entitled to your opinion, all I need is some science to back it up, and I'll change my mind. Everything I have read says otherwise. I'll put it this way, nolva has 2 real advantages: firstly, it acts faster. Since it binds to the receptor instead of the enzyme its effects are seen immediately. Secondly, it is very powerful in the liver, which is why it is so helpful in recovering healthy lipid values. If you love nolva, the best way to use it is for 3 days at the beginning of pct, 60/40/20 while increasing your atd dosage 25/50/75. Starting day 4 you would drop nolva and keep using the atd and taper it down slowly over a 3-4 week period.

[ekilla2003]

Originally Posted by IronPimper

You are entitled to your opinion, all I need is some science to back it up, and I'll change my mind. Everything I have read says otherwise. I'll put it this way, nolva has 2 real advantages: firstly, it acts faster. Since it binds to the receptor instead of the enzyme its effects are seen immediately. Secondly, it is very powerful in the liver, which is why it is so helpful in recovering healthy lipid values. If you love nolva, the best way to use it is for 3 days at the beginning of pct, 60/40/20 while increasing your atd dosage 25/50/75. Starting day 4 you would drop nolva and keep using the atd and taper it down slowly over a 3-4 week period.

all im saying is why take the risk. you got guys on these boards who are expeirienced and from what i read they all agree that nolva is the best.

[IronPimper]

Originally Posted by ekilla2003

all im saying is why take the risk. you got guys on these boards who are expeirienced and from what i read they all agree that nolva is the best.

What risk are you speaking of? Experienced users are going to use nolva because when they started atd didn't even exist as a supplement. That would be like me asking my dad why he doesn't wear his seatbelt. When he was young, no one cared if you used a seat belt, but over the past 30 years we've found it helps save lives and is important enough to pass a law mandating it.

From a scientific standpoint, atd is better at boosting test levels, is equally as good at blocking estrogen, has less side effects, does not increase shbg, and won't allow for estrogen rebound.

People just need to move along with the times. You need to remember, people always resist change. There are all sorts of procedures available today that people won't use because of the "risk" but that doesn't mean they aren't better. Certainly lasik surgery is a better alternative to glasses or contacts, but for the first 3-4 years I didn't see too many people jumping at the chance to have a laser beam in their eyes.

[ekilla2003]

Originally Posted by IronPimper

What risk are you speaking of? Experienced users are going to use nolva because when they started atd didn't even exist as a supplement. That would be like me asking my dad why he doesn't wear his seatbelt. When he was young, no one cared if you used a seat belt, but over the past 30 years we've found it helps save lives and is important enough to pass a law mandating it.

From a scientific standpoint, atd is better at boosting test levels, is equally as good at blocking estrogen, has less side effects, does not increase shbg, and won't allow for estrogen rebound.

People just need to move along with the times. You need to remember, people always resist change. There are all sorts of procedures available today that people won't use because of the "risk" but that doesn't mean they aren't better. Certainly lasik surgery is a better alternative to glasses or contacts, but for the first 3-4 years I didn't see too many people jumping at the chance to have a laser beam in their eyes.

what are you talking about
are you going to use something for pct that is proven to work in ether users or are you going to take the risk of being a guinne pig and use a new product thats not highly reccomend. i think i might go with the one that users used that worked

[IronPimper]

Listen dude, I don't know what rock you've been living under, but atd is a 100% proven anti-aromatose. There is no denying it. No one here is a guinea pig, because it has already been tested thousands of times. It is PROVEN to greatly increase test. It is PROVEN to inhibit estrogen.

The product was designed for pct. When 6-oxo came out these same "experienced" users flocked to it for pct. They STILL recommend it for pct, and it has been proven that atd is a better anti-aromatose than 6-oxo. You can listen to whoeever you want, and use whatever product you want, but the science clearly states that atd is a better pct product than nolva or clomid.

[ekilla2003]

Originally Posted by IronPimper

Listen dude, I don't know what rock you've been living under, but atd is a 100% proven anti-aromatose. There is no denying it. No one here is a guinea pig, because it has already been tested thousands of times. It is PROVEN to greatly increase test. It is PROVEN to inhibit estrogen.

The product was designed for pct. When 6-oxo came out these same "experienced" users flocked to it for pct. They STILL recommend it for pct, and it has been proven that atd is a better anti-aromatose than 6-oxo. You can listen to whoeever you want, and use whatever product you want, but the science clearly states that atd is a better pct product than nolva or clomid.

wow i wouldnt say better and listen im not fighten with you in no mean you have your point and i have mine but good discussion

[IronPimper]

Originally Posted by ekilla2003

wow i wouldnt say better and listen im not fighten with you in no mean you have your point and i have mine but good discussion

you wouldn't say better? That's not even debatable. 6-oxo is otherwise known as "AT," which as you can see would be the weaker form of ATD. ATD is 2.8 times more powerful than 6-oxo. That's just science. The only point you have is that you want to use nolva, which as I said is fine, I'm trying to give everyone else the truth.

[Krzna]

pimper great job bro!
speaking of which, are you planning to write something on SERMS anytime soon, cuz am tryin my best but not getting anything more than there already is on the traditional serms.

[Mavs]

WOOOOHOOOO Let the flamin begin...
Not a bad thread IP...More of a dissertation of what you have learned, and I agree with most of it. I have been singing the Nolvadex/Clomid overkill song untill I'm even tired of hearing it. But most here don't know what they believe themselves...anyway get ready.

[IronPimper]

Originally Posted by Krzna

pimper great job bro!
speaking of which, are you planning to write something on SERMS anytime soon, cuz am tryin my best but not getting anything more than there already is on the traditional serms.

serms are tough bro. many of the articles written are from people like bill lewellyn who overemphasize the need for such things, or greatly exaggerate the dosage. I am convinced now that nolva and clomid are overhyped for pct, and that they are still used more because of stubborness and nostalgia than anything else. I'm in no way saying that serms don't have a place in the bb community, but i think it should be used on cycle for estrogen induced gyno, or during the first 2-4 days of pct because of how fast it works. The more I read, the more I think this is the perfect pct.

pct day 1: nolva 60mg + atd 25mg
pct day 2: nolva 40mg + atd 50mg
pct day 3: nolva 20mg + atd 75mg
pct day 4-7: atd 75mg + 1.5g fenu + 100mg dhea
pct day 8-14: atd 50mg + 2g fenu + 75mg dhea
pct day 15-21: atd 25mg + 2.5g fenu + 50mg dhea
pct days 22-28: atd 25mg + 3g fenu + 25mg dhea

[ekilla2003]

somebody help me

[IronPimper]

Originally Posted by Mavs

WOOOOHOOOO Let the flamin begin...
Not a bad thread IP...More of a dissertation of what you have learned, and I agree with most of it. I have been singing the Nolvadex/Clomid overkill song untill I'm even tired of hearing it. But most here don't know what they believe themselves...anyway get ready.

I've got my flame retardent (sp?) suit on. I'm just trying to give people the science they need to understand, sometimes people just don't want to hear the truth though. I have spent/spend alot of time learning about supplementation, especially pct. I live with a bodybuilder, and train with/help out 4 or 5 others. The one thing I've noticed is that people are generally oblivious to pct. It's no wonder the government wants to ban everything. I thought 25-35 year old men would do some reading first, but they don't.

Anyway, I'm in charge of designing all of their cycles and supplement plans. One of my guys, Jose Vargas was second at the NPC USA's in the bantam class. I think his pictures are still on flexonline.com. If you click at the bottom for "finals photos" He's in blue trunks on the top right of the first page. I'm just hoping people will read and make informed decisions based on the science.

http://www.flexonline.com/news/50#