PCT- The hows and the whats answered!

[Krzna]

Bet many of you here are well aware that you defenitely need a PCT after a cycle of something hormonal like 1AD, 1-T, m1t, m5 or even SD. There are any number of threads that tell you to take nolva, 6oxo, clomid, R-Xt. This thread is dedicated for those who are really interested to know why someone asks you to do that PCT and what exactly happens to your body during a PCT.

<b>So why do I need to take all this stuff after my cycle? </b>
During a cycle of AAS, natural production of testosterone decreases, often times to zero. In many cases, the diminished natural testosterone production causes a cessation of sperm production (spermatogenesis), and the male becomes sterile. After the cycle, the body's ability to make testosterone may take months to start again. Aside from the undesirable sterility and loss of strength, other hormone levels get out of whack because of the low testosterone, and cause other problems such as increased body fat and depression. The body produces many hormones, and the levels of most hormones are interrelated. This article will examine the factors involved in regulating the production of certain hormones in the body, particularly by the Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis

<b>So what's the big deal in taking so many different compounds together? </b>
The ideal post cycle therapy consists of a three compound administration which is designed so that there is a primary and secondary LH stimulator which both are maximizing potential early in the duration;
With the addition of an Aromatase Inhibitor, which makes the above possible, the individual will also endure less of an increase in Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, which allows free testosterone levels to reach base line at a much quicker pace. The individual will also see less of a problem in most cases with sexual libido as the bounding SHBG is controlled (to an extent).


Day 1-15 600 MG 6oxo + 100mg Clomid + 40mg Nolva
Day 16-30 300mg 6oxo + 75mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

Selective estrogen receptor modulators(SERMs) such as Clomiphine and Tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too.

<b>Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary
Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs </b>

In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotrophin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:

<b>1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux occured PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
2. If your running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and 6oxo. </b>


<b>So after my PCT what should I expect from my body?</b>

Hormone panel:
Testosterone: normal range 300 - 1200ng/dl
Free testosterone: normal range 8.7 - 25pg/ml
IGF-1: normal range 109-284ng/ml
Estradiol: normal range 5 - 53pg/ml
DHEA-s: normal range 120 - 520ug/dl

Thyroid panel:
T4: normal range 4.5 - 12ug/dl
T3: normal range 2.3 - 4.2pg/ml
TSH: normal range 0.350 - 5.500uIU/ml

Blood Lipid panel:
Total cholesterol: normal healthy range 100 - 199mg/dl
LDL fraction: normal range 0 - 99mg/dl
HDL fraction: normal range 40 - 59mg/dl
Triglycerides: normal range 0 - 149mg/dl
C-reactive protein: > 2mg/l increased risk of MI and stroke
Homocysteine: normal range 6.3 - 15umol/L

Liver function:
Alkaline phosphatase: Normal range 25 - 150IU/L
GGT: normal range 0 - 65IU/L
SGOT: normal range 0 - 40IU/L
SGPT: normal range 0-40IU/L
PSA: normal 0.0 - 4.0ng/ml

Renal function tests:
Creatinine: normal 0.5 - 1.5mg/dl
BUN: normal range 5 - 26mg/dl
Creatinine/BUN ratio: normal 8 - 27

<b>What else can I take with all my ancillaries for a good PCT</b>
Tribulus, ZMA are good to add on a PCT. Ideally you want to start these in the beginning of week 2 when the natural test levels are catching up.

I am not a doctor neither do I give medical advise.I just post what I have researched and obtained. If I am wrong please feel free to correct me.Thx

Many thanks to LMR and AM.

[Krzna]

So everyone tells me my HTPA is gonna get messed up, what does it mean?

Endogenous Testosterone
Where is testosterone made in the body? Well, about 95% is produced in the testicles, in special cells called "interstitial cells" or Leydig cells. These cells surround cells in the seminiferous tubules, called Sertoli cells, whose function is to produce sperm. Spermatogenesis in the Sertoli cells requires testosterone, and when endogenous testosterone diminishes, then sperm production stops (and you end up with raisins). Bear in mind that Leydig cells and Sertoli cells are in close proximity to each other. Therefore, the testosterone concentration is high, relative to the concentration in the bloodstream. Sertoli cells require high testosterone concentration for the sperm cells to begin the maturation process. So, even though you might have "a lot" of exogenous testosterone when on-cycle, the concentration is not high enough at the Sertoli cells to promote spermatogenesis because the Leydig cells have shut down. This, combined with a lack of Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH), renders many men sterile during a cycle.

The "Axis"
Hang on a minute, the Leydig cells shut down? Why? How?

Well, the short answer is, "hormones". Hormones are the body's way of sending signals, or information from one part of the body to another. In a computer, electrons (electricity) act as the signal; in the body (which doesn't have wires!), the signals must be sent with chemicals, and that is the role of hormones. The term "HPT Axis" refers to the interaction of the hypothalamus, pituitary, and testes (there are other axes as well). For the Leydig cells, Luteinizing hormone (LH) is released from the pituitary and it signals the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Similarly, the pituitary releases FSH, and it tells the Sertoli cells to make sperm (as well as androgen-binding-protein). The pituitary is a gland that produces and stores a number of hormones, under the control of the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus decides how the body's organs should operate, and the pituitary gives the actual "orders" to the target organs. Some of the "signaling" hormones made or stored in the pituitary are:

Growth Hormone
IGF-I and IGF-II
Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH)
Vasopressin (or Antidiuretic hormone)
Luteininzing Hormone (LH)
Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH)
Adrenocorticotropic Hormone (ACTH)

The hypothalamus and the pituitary are very close together, and are located at the base of the brain. Just as the pituitary uses hormones to signal the target organ (testes, thyroid, etc) to do something, the hypothalamus uses other hormones to signal the pituitary to do its job. Some of these "Hypothalamic Releasing Factors" are (along with the pituitary hormones affected):

Hypothalamic Hormone: Regulates:
Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone LH, FSH
Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone GH
Thyrotropin Releasing Hormone TSH
Corticotropin Releasing Hormone ACTH

But how does the hypothalamus know when its commands have been carried out? By what's called a "feedback loop". Just as a General relies on reports from the field, the hypothalamus must monitor the results of its commands. The hypothalamus has sensors (receptors) to determine the levels of the chemicals (hormones) produced by the target organs. For our purposes, we will examine only one feedback loop, the one involving the testes.

The hypothalamus has both androgen receptors and estrogen receptors. When the level of either hormone gets too high, the receptors become more highly activated, and the hypothalamus stops sending Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone to the pituitary. The pituitary, in turn, stops sending LH and FSH to the testes. Thus, the signal is, "stop producing testosterone (and sperm)". We know that androgens (and NOT just estrogen) stop the action of the testes because exogenous DHT by itself (which cannot convert to estrogen) is very effective at shutting down the testes. A schematic of the HPTA (and other glands) is shown below. Note that the other glands are involved in feedback mechanism also.

What does the estrogen/androgen feedback loop mean to bodybuilders? It means that, when using exogenous androgens, the hypothalamus is very effectively signaled (by binding to the AR's on the hypothalamus) that there is plenty of androgen, and that the testes should be shut down. As long as the level of exogenous androgen is high enough, no reasonable amount of Clomid (or other estrogen-blocker) will be able to keep the testes functioning. So, the only reason to take Clomid during a cycle is if you are susceptible to gyno, or want to try to reduce the bloating associated with elevated estrogens. Both of these actions take place at sites other than at the hypothalamus.

Many thanks to LMR/Sanjac for this useful info.

[bluehazard]

Damn, some nice info... Should be helpful to people starting out...

Would you really take all those in conjunction though? Do you really feel it's worth taking 6oxo and clomid and nolva? That's a big chunk of cash, my vote would be to go with clomid or nolva for a month than use the 6oxo at 600mgs afterwards for an above-normal boost for as long as you can reasonably afford.

[SKYWALKER09]

Great Post Once Again Krnza.

Just to add my experiences with PCT in parallel to your:

I completely agree that using a combination of three compounds is neccessary when natural test suppression is severe. I have used the below PCT with great success. By the second day my boys were hanging low again and starting to plump up again.

Week 9-Day 1: Clomid 300mg
Week 9: Clomid 100mg, Nolva 40mg, Pro Liver
Week 10: Clomid 50mg, Nolva 30mg, Pro Liver
Week 11: Nolva 20mg, 6OXO 600mg, Pro Liver
Week 12: 6OXO 300mg, Pro Liver

6OXO is much weaker than nolva for combating estrogen, so I think using it on week 3 and 4 helped my body get back to normal by preventing the flooding my receptors with estrogen when I stop the nolva. As an Aromatase Inhibitor it should help my receptors get back to normal after inhibiting them for 3 weeks while on nolva. As far as the clomid goes it really just helps with boosting the body's Leutenizing Hormone after coming off a cycle. I know alot of people say it makes them feel like a chick and everything, but I felt fine while on it.

Using Fenugreek seems to a new trend for Superdrol PCT as well. I may give it a try when I get to my PCT. There is a link in my profile for anyone who wants to check it out my new HST Superdorl Log. Dosages for Fenugreek may be 2g/2.5g/3g/3.5g, but dont quote me on it, Im still learning about it.

[Krzna]

All you guys are so fired up about SD, I really wish I had used it once to know for myself hands on. Yeah this thread is lacking a lot on the SD info cuz quite frankly I don't know a whole lot about SD.
Thx for your inputs sky and blue.

[UkMuscle]

Very informative krzna well done. Ive learnt some new things today

[SKYWALKER09]

Originally Posted by Krzna

All you guys are so fired up about SD, I really wish I had used it once to know for myself hands on. Yeah this thread is lacking a lot on the SD info cuz quite frankly I don't know a whole lot about SD.
Thx for your inputs sky and blue.

Well Ill be going on cycle in a couple weeks. If I learn anything great Ill be sure to post it here. There is a good log to check out with ALR's advice about SD PCT.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29093

Some people are also taking these during and after cycle to help with sustaining ones lipid profile.

Red Yeast Rice- A fermented rice product, that is our best fighter against negative sides form AAS concerning cardiovascular damage. Comprised of nine different monacolins, which are naturally occurring substances that help regulate cholesterol levels. Along with sterols, and monounsaturated fatty acids, it packs a strong punch.

COQ10- Although this is abundant in food sources, I feel it prudent to put on here. Not only does it show to help cardiac function, but it’s also imperative to be used with Red Yeast Rice. Can be used in combination with other cholesterol lowering supplements.

Celery Seed- A powerful anti-oxidant, shown to not only lower blood pressure, but may have cancer fighting properties as well. And there is evidence to show its ability in aiding the liver.

Policosanol- A blend of fatty alcohol’s, shows great promise in its use as beneficial to cardiovascular health, to include the maintenance of healthy lipid profiles. There is also some theory to a synergistic affect with EFA’s.

[Krzna]

Its pretty interesting, am quoting Dr D here,

<i>"It's based in part on extinction theory in reguard to steroidal AI's. Ramp down SERM to avoid estrogenic rebound phenomena, and compensate by upping RXT inversely. End PCT at your highest dose of RXT, because you have extended estrogen suppression from a suicide substrate and you what that maximized once you quit. It's mostly my gut feeling of how you could make stacking these work best. It's the way I'm going to try it first for sure. However, if you are proceeding quickly with your PCT recovery by week 2 or 3, this is probably not needed and you could hold the dose static or ramp down in conjuction with the Nolva. This inverse method was originally formulated to try and help one minimize the amount of Nolva needed (being the more toxic of the two) and still get good results. The most bang for your time and buck so to speek. Remember that Nolva has a 5 day half-life and is toxic to the liver. PCT is about liver regeneration too, not just recovery of steroidogenesis" </i>

I am not sure wether this pertain to SD only or to other ph/ps's. To the best of my knowledge its safer ramping down the SERMS and AI's together and running the AI for a week longer on a real low dose when it comes to m1t and other ph's.

[SKYWALKER09]

Originally Posted by Krzna

Its pretty interesting, am quoting Dr D here,

<i>"It's based in part on extinction theory in reguard to steroidal AI's. Ramp down SERM to avoid estrogenic rebound phenomena, and compensate by upping RXT inversely. End PCT at your highest dose of RXT, because you have extended estrogen suppression from a suicide substrate and you what that maximized once you quit. It's mostly my gut feeling of how you could make stacking these work best. It's the way I'm going to try it first for sure. However, if you are proceeding quickly with your PCT recovery by week 2 or 3, this is probably not needed and you could hold the dose static or ramp down in conjuction with the Nolva. This inverse method was originally formulated to try and help one minimize the amount of Nolva needed (being the more toxic of the two) and still get good results. The most bang for your time and buck so to speek. Remember that Nolva has a 5 day half-life and is toxic to the liver. PCT is about liver regeneration too, not just recovery of steroidogenesis" </i>

I am not sure wether this pertain to SD only or to other ph/ps's. To the best of my knowledge its safer ramping down the SERMS and AI's together and running the AI for a week longer on a real low dose when it comes to m1t and other ph's.

He is a very knowledgable man, but personally I think some ramping down is a neccessary, but to each his own.

[Krzna]

bump.....

[Hrobjartz]

Great post Krzna! Thanks dude...

I just started PCT following a 3 week Superdrol cycle of 10/20/20mg.

I have 10mg Nolva oral tablets and 6-oxo on hand, and im currently taking 40mg (4x 10mg tabs) of Nolva every evening before going to bed.

I´ve heard thats the best time to take the Nolva? Do you guys split the dosage or when do you feel is the best time to take it during the day?

I plan on taking Nolva for 3 weeks (week 1: 40mg a day/week 2: 30mg a day/week 3: 20mg a day) and then adding 600mg 6-oxo a day into the split on the second week.

Do you feel that 4 weeks is necessary after a 3 week SD cycle? Or could i settle for 3 weeks?

[lift heavy]

Personally I would drop the clomid (it dosen't sit well with me) and add HCG.

- just me though

[Krzna]

Originally Posted by Hrobjartz

Great post Krzna! Thanks dude...

I just started PCT following a 3 week Superdrol cycle of 10/20/20mg.

I have 10mg Nolva oral tablets and 6-oxo on hand, and im currently taking 40mg (4x 10mg tabs) of Nolva every evening before going to bed.

I´ve heard thats the best time to take the Nolva? Do you guys split the dosage or when do you feel is the best time to take it during the day?

I plan on taking Nolva for 3 weeks (week 1: 40mg a day/week 2: 30mg a day/week 3: 20mg a day) and then adding 600mg 6-oxo a day into the split on the second week.

Do you feel that 4 weeks is necessary after a 3 week SD cycle? Or could i settle for 3 weeks?

1)Nolva has a half life of 5 days so its allright to take your 40mg in one shot.

2)I take my nolva before my I sleep at night. I figured your test levels are boosted during the rest phase.

3) Anabolic Minds suggests this kinda pct

wk1: 40mg Nolva, 25mg RXT, 3 fenugreek caps, DHEA 200mg
wk2: 40mg Nolva, 25mg RXT, 4 fenugreek caps, DHEA 200mg
wk4: 20mg Nolva, 50mg RXT, 5 fenugreek caps, DHEA 100mg
wk4: 20mg Nolva, 50mg RXT, 6 fenugreek caps, DHEA 100mg

You could take 50mg RXT all the way or ramp down instead of up, I am not sure what would work better, but some say ramp down. It wouldn't hurt to ramp up though, estro rebound is not a prob with RXT. The RYR seem to work best w/ 1200mg. If you are more heavily shutdown, start w/ 60mg on the Nolva instead of 40. The Nolva is highly variable from person to person and you may need a differend dose from the next guy.

So if you were to periodically increase with 6oxo instead of R-XT

wk1: 40mg Nolva, 300 6oxo, 3 fenugreek caps, DHEA 200mg
wk2: 40mg Nolva, 300 6oxo, 4 fenugreek caps, DHEA 200mg
wk4: 20mg Nolva, 600 6oxo, 5 fenugreek caps, DHEA 100mg
wk4: 20mg Nolva, 600 6oxo, 6 fenugreek caps, DHEA 100mg

But if you were to ask me for my frank opinion I would highly recommed a ramp down.

<b>wk1: 40mg Nolva, 600 6oxo, 3 fenugreek caps, DHEA 200mg
wk2: 40mg Nolva, 600 6oxo, 4 fenugreek caps, DHEA 200mg
wk4: 20mg Nolva, 300 6oxo, 5 fenugreek caps, DHEA 100mg
wk4: 10mg Nolva, 300 6oxo, 6 fenugreek caps, DHEA 100mg </b>

But the first above mentioned PCT has its merits too. They are
a) Nolva is hard on the liver. One would therefore phase down nolva and give a giver AI dose during PCT.
b) Like I've mentioned above a SERM + AI pct is best for recovery, while your nat. test levels have restarted the AI maintains it.


4)Coming to your question about cycle length, I have not used SD so I am not good enough to answer that. One of the other members would defn be able to answer this. Good luck!

[Hrobjartz]

Thanks for a great and informative answer, Krzna!
Respect.

[Krzna]

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[rippedtwoshreds]

once again, you come through with an excellent post. good work! we all appreciate the info.

[Mavs]

Good Info Krzna...I have to say that I too believe Clomid to be the better choice over Nolvadex (for several reasons) And that for most PH/PS the suggested PCT is way overkill. (unless I bounce back way faster then most others)

[wiseguy1111]

Originally Posted by rippedtwoshreds

once again, you come through with an excellent post. good work! we all appreciate the info.

True that. Very nice.

[Krzna]

Thx a lot for your comments guys.
And on that note...bump again

[wiseguy1111]

bump

[hypnotic]

This thread has been 100 % approved by Hypnotic 6/16/05 lol!
GJ Krzna ;p

[SKYWALKER09]

Originally Posted by Mavs

Good Info Krzna...I have to say that I too believe Clomid to be the better choice over Nolvadex (for several reasons) And that for most PH/PS the suggested PCT is way overkill. (unless I bounce back way faster then most others)

Do you mean using nolva and clomid is overkill for most PH/PS cycles?? I really liked using them in combination for a couple weeks. It really helped me bounce back quickly after being shut down real hard.

[Krzna]

Originally Posted by SKYWALKER09

Do you mean using nolva and clomid is overkill for most PH/PS cycles?? I really liked using them in combination for a couple weeks. It really helped me bounce back quickly after being shut down real hard.

Some people have the ability to bounce back faster than other. This I've noticed in my friends. In my previous m1t cycles it was a different experience each time.
In my first m1t cycle I was using underground labs m1t. Shut down was in 12 days flat. I was pretty heavily shut down even with the 4AD. My recovery came in around 2 weeks and I was fully back in 3 weeks flat.
The second time was a bit different. I almost never got shut down, however it was a different experience as the sides were minimal too. I was beginning to wonder if my receptor sites have gotten used to the 1-t.

In 1AD I never got shut down. I never used nolva <i> not saying this is right </i> however my time between cycles was 4 months each.My bounce back was really fast with just 2 bottles of 6 oxo, however I did run them for 5 weeks in a drop down fashion with tribulus from week 2.

For people who have run 2+ ph cycles, have you guys found your body any different the way it reacts to the compound with respect to the HTPA?

[Hrobjartz]

Bump...

[Mavs]

Originally Posted by SKYWALKER09

Do you mean using nolva and clomid is overkill for most PH/PS cycles?? I really liked using them in combination for a couple weeks. It really helped me bounce back quickly after being shut down real hard.

Yes...IMO, An AI plus herbs for 2-3 weeks (and another 3-4 weeks prior to next cycle) is sufficient for 90% of the PH/PS cycles. Most cycles are 2-4 weeks max, with some exceptions, and I don't see a need to use a mild estrogen to restore HPTA for these short cycles.

[Krzna]

AI + 1 serm + herbal alternatives are the way to go for moderate shut downs esp 1AD and SD.
m1t may need a combo though.
Other products that are good are Tongkat Ali and Avena Sativa.
By the way, howz Forza-T for a PCT?

[Krzna]

............

[American Hunk]

good post Krzna. i use the same combo of nolva+clomid+dex(E3D) and taper down till 4 weeks is up. However, i use a transdermal 6-OXO at weeks 3-5 and drop the dex at the same time. This is for a heavy 8 week cycle. This time i did a high dose 1-T/4-AD cycle and i felt great on cycle. M1T cycles make you feel like crap and hardest to recover IMO.

I'm just finishing up 2 weeks of PCT and i have no crash, no physical problems, or mental problems with the PCT so far. However, my libido is still gone and ED is a problem. Hopefully, i'll bounce back in weeks 3-4 like the other 12 PCT i've run in the past 8 years.

I also include transdermal 7-oxo for 8 weeks, zma, clen+keto, 1.5g/day of 50% tribulus, and 1g/day of long jack 100:1 in my 5 week PCT. May sound like overkill, but i can say it's harder and harder to recover after doing so many cycles and growing older ~35yo.

[bluehazard]

Originally Posted by Krzna

AI + 1 serm + herbal alternatives are the way to go for moderate shut downs esp 1AD and SD.
m1t may need a combo though.
Other products that are good are Tongkat Ali and Avena Sativa.
By the way, howz Forza-T for a PCT?

For sure I'd combo on the m1t, nolva and 6oxo would be great for that. I'd save the nolva/clomid for an all out AAS stack though.

[Krzna]

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