Trump argument bolstered:Clinton received 800,000 votes from noncitizens, study finds

[wake_me]

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/20...-from-nonciti/

Hillary Clinton garnered more than 800,000 votes from noncitizens on Nov. 8, an approximation far short of President Trump’s estimate of up to 5 million illegal voters but supportive of his charges of fraud.

Political scientist Jesse Richman of Old Dominion University in Norfolk, Virginia, has worked with colleagues to produce groundbreaking research on noncitizen voting, and this week he posted a blog in response to Mr. Trump’s assertion.

Based on national polling by a consortium of universities, a report by Mr. Richman said 6.4 percent of the estimated 20 million adult noncitizens in the U.S. voted in November. He extrapolated that that percentage would have added 834,381 net votes for Mrs. Clinton, who received about 2.8 million more votes than Mr. Trump.

Mr. Richman calculated that Mrs. Clinton would have collected 81 percent of noncitizen votes.

“Is it plausible that non-citizen votes added to Clinton’s margin? Yes,” Mr. Richman wrote. “Is it plausible that non-citizen votes account for the entire nation-wide popular vote margin held by Clinton? Not at all.”

Still, the finding is significant because it means noncitizens may have helped Mrs. Clinton carry a state or finish better than she otherwise would have.

Mr. Trump’s unverified accusation to congressional leaders this week, as reported by The Washington Post, has sent the issue skyward.

He apparently was referring to all types of fraud, such as the “dead” voting or multiple votes from the same person. But the thrust of his estimate appears to be that illegal immigrants and noncitizens carried the popular vote.

He returned to the issue Thursday in Philadelphia, where he spoke to congressional Republicans mapping this year’s legislative calendar.

“We also need to keep the ballot box safe from illegal voting,” the president said. “And, believe me, you take a look at what’s registering, folks. Take a look at what’s registering. We are going to protect the integrity of the ballot box, and we are going to defend the votes of the American citizen, so important.”

The mainstream media reacted to Mr. Trump’s assertion with derision. Liberal pundits said there is no evidence of fraud.

CNN’s Jake Tapper called it “a stunning allegation for which the White House is providing no evidence. And there is a reason they are providing no evidence — there is no evidence. It is not true.”

Esquire.com said, “The most bizarre lie of Donald Trump’s presidency so far is his claim of widespread voter fraud in an election he won.”

But conservative activists say the liberal media are ignoring evidence — that noncitizen voting is illegal and, thus, fraud. They say the Justice Department in the Obama administration was more concerned with preventing states from cleansing rosters of dead and inactive voters than in mounting any investigation into fraud.

“Most voters are never asked for voter ID, so it is dishonest to suggest that with the tens of millions of illegal and legal aliens here, there is no voter fraud,” said Tom Fitton, who heads the conservative watchdog group Judicial Watch. “If the key Old Dominion study results on the 2008 election are applied to 2016 — 1.41 million aliens may have voted illegally, with 1.13 million voting for Democrats.”

“A federal voter fraud investigation is long overdue,” Mr. Fitton said. “It would be a simple matter of analyzing voter registration databases against federal databases of aliens and deceased individuals. Why is the left afraid to even ask the questions? The jig is up.”

There does not appear to be any concerted postelection effort by states to take on the daunting task of checking voter rolls and ballots to verify citizenship. In some states, no ID is required to register and vote.

In the absence of detailed accounting, the only scientific way to make an estimate is by post-vote polling.

Mr. Richman relies on a one-of-a-kind poll: the Cooperative Congressional Election Survey. Every two years, a consortium of 28 universities produces a detailed report on voters and their views based on polling by YouGov.

Tucked inside the lengthy questionnaire is a question on citizenship status: A significant number of respondents anonymously acknowledged they were not citizens when they voted.

Three professors at Old Dominion University — Mr. Richman, Gulshan A. Chattha and David C. Earnest — took these answers, did further research and extrapolated that of a 19.4 million estimate of adult noncitizens, about 620,000 were illegally registered to vote in the 2008 presidential election. Using other measuring tools, they said, the actual number of noncitizen voters could be as low as 38,000 and as high as 2.8 million.

The U.S. Census Bureau reported in 2012 that there are 22 million noncitizens in the country. The group comprises illegal immigrants and people in the U.S. legally on a visa or permanent resident green card. Of this 22 million, 20 million were 18 or older, the U.S. voting age requirement.

Conservatives have long suspected that Democrats are tacitly encouraging illegal immigrants to vote. Liberal leaders have created “sanctuary cities” across the nation that refuse to work with federal immigration enforcement authorities.

President Obama was asked during the campaign last year if illegal immigrants had anything to fear from federal authorities if they voted in the presidential race.

“Many of the millennials, Dreamers, undocumented citizens — and I call them citizens because they contribute to this country — are fearful of voting,” he was asked on a Latino YouTube channel. “‘So if I vote, will Immigration know where I live? Will they come for my family and deport us?’”

“Not true, and the reason is, first of all, when you vote, you are a citizen yourself,” Mr. Obama said. “And there is not a situation where the voting rolls somehow are transferred over and people start investigating, etc. The sanctity of the vote is strictly confidential.”

Some conservatives interpreted Mr. Obama’s answer as a go-ahead signal, with his questionable assertion that voter rolls are off limits to federal investigators.

The WikiLeaks dump of Clinton campaign manger John Podesta’s emails contained one message on directing immigrants to vote. He said immigrants should obtain driver’s licenses and then attest at a polling place that they are U.S. citizens.

[Slurgie]

Is there anything Trump doesn't end up being right about in the end?

[A-GAME]

Libs know this is going on. They lie because it benefits them. None of the cheats are voting for the right. Fcuking cretins.

[andrew28]

Is there anything Trump doesn't end up being right about in the end?

The only thing trump has been dead wrong about is us getting tired of all this winning

[Iceman1800]

"Based on national polling". So do polls matter or not? No actual proof, just polling numbers. If polls matter, Clinton would be president. Make up your minds....

[Rayzor84]

I'm confused. The article starts with a hard number for 800k illegal votes based on supposed evidence, but then goes on to say it isn't implausible this could potentially happen and that individual state polls have yet to investigate. Is this news or speculation right now?

[wake_me]

"Based on national polling". So do polls matter or not? No actual proof, just polling numbers. If polls matter, Clinton would be president. Make up your minds....

Polls in and of themselves aren't fruitless, or they wouldn't exist. The accuracy of a poll is dependent on its methodology/how the sample is selected. Obviously the election polls were inaccurate. Whether that is due to the wording of questions, where the sample was chosen from, etc. we could only speculate.

That being said, there certainly could be issues with this poll as well. However, it sounds like some good points are brought up in the article about the plausibility of, and opportunity for illegal immigrants voting. To pretend like it couldn't happen is asinine. The question is to what scale it actually happens, IMO.

[Iceman1800]

Polls in and of themselves aren't fruitless, or they wouldn't exist. The accuracy of a poll is dependent on its methodology/how the sample is selected. Obviously the election polls were inaccurate. Whether that is due to the wording of questions, where the sample was chosen from, etc. we could only speculate.

That being said, there certainly could be issues with this poll as well. However, it sounds like some good points are brought up in the article about the plausibility of, and opportunity for illegal immigrants voting. To pretend like it couldn't happen is asinine. The question is to what scale it actually happens, IMO.

I'm not disputing that it couldn't happen and it most likely did happen to some degree. I just would like to see actual proof.

[wake_me]

I'm confused. The article starts with a hard number for 800k illegal votes based on supposed evidence, but then goes on to say it isn't implausible this could potentially happen and that individual state polls have yet to investigate. Is this news or speculation right now?

It's extrapolating a potential figure based on this:

Every two years, a consortium of 28 universities produces a detailed report on voters and their views based on polling by YouGov.

Tucked inside the lengthy questionnaire is a question on citizenship status: A significant number of respondents anonymously acknowledged they were not citizens when they voted.

I definitely wouldn't call it hard evidence. Just something that gives credence to the notion that a large number of illegal citizens do actually vote; which doesn't seem far fetched.

[wake_me]

I'm not disputing that it couldn't happen and it most likely did happen to some degree. I just would like to see actual proof.

Same here.

[DuracellBunny]

I'm not disputing that it couldn't happen and it most likely did happen to some degree. I just would like to see actual proof.

I'm not sure that any proof will ever be made public, even if found. If there is an investigation and proof is discovered, it will throw every election result (not just the presidential election) in to doubt. Democracy will become suspect and all sorts of legal proceedings will be issued.

The reason that officials try and pretend it doesn't happen, is because it's a can of worms that nobody in the establishment wants opened.

[Tha big kahoona]

This is going to end Clinton's presidential run

[AmericaFirst]

Washingtontimes is fake news (srs).

They are garbage and a spawning ground for pseudo-journalists who can't make it at real institutions.

Their progeny typically move from there to the blogosphere or to talk radio where they release their intellectual bowels on the unprepared.

I'm also compelled to point out that this "material" doesn't constitute evidence of 800,000 non-citizens voting, much less millions and millions as claimed by Trump...

[Iceman1800]

This is going to end Clinton's presidential run

Never count Bill out....

[dhawkeye1980]

I'm not sure that any proof will ever be made public, even if found. If there is an investigation and proof is discovered, it will throw every election result (not just the presidential election) in to doubt. Democracy will become suspect and all sorts of legal proceedings will be issued.

The reason that officials try and pretend it doesn't happen, is because it's a can of worms that nobody in the establishment wants opened.

Every person who is a citizen gets a social security card, why cant we just update that with a picture ID and it can double as a voter ID card when you turn 18? Its not that hard. India has 1 billion people and they all have a voter id card, chit i think mexico requires voter id as well

[brighamw]

Impossible!

Noncitizens, in particular illegal ones can't vote and do not take advantage of the welfare system either OP

It's impossible, they don't have SS#'s, stop spreading lies...

WE ARE A NATION OF IMMIGRANTS!












Did I miss any

[S0Jack3d]

I dont even know why people even question Trump anymore. Trump is always right, his word might as well be gospel. He truly is a GOD Emperor.

[Tears]

Time to require identification to vote.

O wait, that's racist.

[BongoBanger]

I'm not sure that any proof will ever be made public, even if found. If there is an investigation and proof is discovered, it will throw every election result (not just the presidential election) in to doubt. Democracy will become suspect and all sorts of legal proceedings will be issued.

The reason that officials try and pretend it doesn't happen, is because it's a can of worms that nobody in the establishment wants opened.

if any proof was given, this is not the most logical outcome.
the most logical outcome is that we will change the voting procedures going forward and not go back and change any prior election.

[tk217]

I'm not disputing that it couldn't happen and it most likely did happen to some degree. I just would like to see actual proof.

Well the only real way to prove it and make sure it doesn't happen is to start requiring a "proof of citizenship" at the ballot box.

[PSToolman]

Polls in and of themselves aren't fruitless, or they wouldn't exist. The accuracy of a poll is dependent on its methodology/how the sample is selected. Obviously the election polls were inaccurate. Whether that is due to the wording of questions, where the sample was chosen from, etc. we could only speculate.

That being said, there certainly could be issues with this poll as well. However, it sounds like some good points are brought up in the article about the plausibility of, and opportunity for illegal immigrants voting. To pretend like it couldn't happen is asinine. The question is to what scale it actually happens, IMO.

How is it obvious? The majority of the national polls were within the margin of error, and all but one or two of them correctly predicted Clinton would win the popular vote. At least one that predicted Trump to win was outside the margin.

The issue I have with this article and the survey it references is they both start with the premise that there must be evidence of extensive individual voter fraud and cherry picks data to prove it.

[DuracellBunny]

if any proof was given, this is not the most logical outcome.
the most logical outcome is that we will change the voting procedures going forward and not go back and change any prior election.

Every single person that lost an election in November would file a lawsuit. On top of that, the US would lose any moral authority to bish about free and fair elections in other parts of the world. The sh!tstorm would be biblical.

[Sakeoe]

I'm not disputing that it couldn't happen and it most likely did happen to some degree. I just would like to see actual proof.

But asking for definite proof is nonsensical because of the way voting works in the first place. You cannot trace back a vote to a person, and for good reason. But because you can't, you also can't proof that illegals have voted.

The best solution is to simply implement a system that prevents illegals from voting, such sending a voting bill to each legitimate citizen in addition to requiring voting ID. There is no argument against this. If you believe illegals vote, then you are in favor of this. If you believe illegals already don't vote, you don't have a reason to be against it since it wouldn't make a difference.

[JoshSP1985]

When states can and have been won by a few thousand votes even .5% of illegals voting can change the course of US history and affect Presidential elections.

Voting is our most important right and the federal government should do everything in it's power to protect that right from being hijacked by non citizens.


Democrats claim voter ID is racist and that stance is a cover-up for their true intention of allowing illegals to vote.

[PSToolman]

Looking at voter turnout rates which have been relatively flat, hovering between 35 & 40% of total population since the 1940's, there is no rise in turnout that corresponds to the rise of undocumented aliens. If true that most undocumented aliens avoid getting counted during the Census, then you would expect turnout rates to rise.

Further, looking at the individual states voter turnout rates, those with the lowest turnout had the highest undocumented populations, including California. You would expect the opposite if the president's assertion is true. Texas, second in the nation in illegal aliens, had a very low turnout, and fell to Trump. Florida, forth on the list of illegal population, had a relatively high turnout, and also fell to Trump. The two split the top ten states by undocumented aliens.

Looking again at national turnout rates, that rate dropped in the 2016 election.

[JoshSP1985]

Washingtontimes is fake news (srs).

They are garbage and a spawning ground for pseudo-journalists who can't make it at real institutions.

Their progeny typically move from there to the blogosphere or to talk radio where they release their intellectual bowels on the unprepared.

I'm also compelled to point out that this "material" doesn't constitute evidence of 800,000 non-citizens voting, much less millions and millions as claimed by Trump...

If even 10,000 illegals vote it's too many

[dysenterygary]

The only thing trump has been dead wrong about is us getting tired of all this winning

agreed. it's only week 1 though.

"Based on national polling". So do polls matter or not? No actual proof, just polling numbers. If polls matter, Clinton would be president. Make up your minds....

[JoshSP1985]

Looking at voter turnout rates which have been relatively flat, hovering between 35 & 40% of total population since the 1940's, there is no rise in turnout that corresponds to the rise of undocumented aliens. If true that most undocumented aliens avoid getting counted during the Census, then you would expect turnout rates to rise.

Further, looking at the individual states voter turnout rates, those with the lowest turnout had the highest undocumented populations, including California. You would expect the opposite if the president's assertion is true. Texas, second in the nation in illegal aliens, had a very low turnout, and fell to Trump. Florida, forth on the list of illegal population, had a relatively high turnout, and also fell to Trump. The two split the top ten states by undocumented aliens.

Looking again at national turnout rates, that rate dropped in the 2016 election.

Correlation =/= causation.

Turnout dropping could be related to apathy too, etc.

Point is you need an ID to do pretty much everything in this country and voting is literally the most important right we have as citizens and should be protected and verified.

[dabbmw2002]

Instead of arguing over circumstantial evidence with questionable validity, why not launch a full investigation and put an end to all this speculation.

[chaunce54]

Impossible!

Noncitizens, in particular illegal ones can't vote and do not take advantage of the welfare system either OP

It's impossible, they don't have SS#'s, stop spreading lies...

WE ARE A NATION OF IMMIGRANTS!

Did I miss any

Just looked at the NYS voter registration form and you are not required to put in your SS#.

All you need is a NYS drivers license...

Senate Bill S3607
2015-2016 Legislative Session
Authorizes certain undocumented Americans to obtain New York state drivers' licenses or non-driver identification cards; repealer

PURPOSE:

To allow New York State students who have received a high school
diploma or equivalent, regardless of immigration status, be allowed to
obtain a New York State drivers' license or non-driver identification
card provided they meet criteria promulgated by the Commissioner of
the Department of Motor Vehicles and set forth in law.

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2015/s3607

How and Where to Register to Vote (Deadlines)
You can register in person at your county board of elections or at any New York State Agency-Based voter registration center.
You may also submit your voter application form at the Department of Motor Vehicles, either in person or on their web site if you already have DMV-issued identification.

https://www.elections.ny.gov/VotingRegister.html