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    Registered User frankie01's Avatar
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    are tricep kickbacks useless??

    hi ive just got myself a copy ofnew rules of lifting for women as i want to take my training further and learn alot more. ive been following a training program in the womens section of bb.com and tricep kickbacks are part of it and ive just red on page 6 of nrolfw that its a useless exercise. is that right? am i wasting my time doing them?
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    Originally Posted by frankie01 View Post
    hi ive just got myself a copy ofnew rules of lifting for women as i want to take my training further and learn alot more. ive been following a training program in the womens section of bb.com and tricep kickbacks are part of it and ive just red on page 6 of nrolfw that its a useless exercise. is that right? am i wasting my time doing them?
    Kickbacks serve more for creating shape than adding size. Therefore, they should be done towards the end of the tri workout, lest they weaken your tri's prior to the heavy mass building ones.
    Time To Re-Schedule
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    Registered User karoline8's Avatar
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    I don't think they are, I've always done them, at one point they were the only direct excercise I did for tri's and I grew they this way as a result. I started with 5lb db's and am now up to 38lbs, though now I do incorporate other excercises in my routine I still do them on a regular basis. The trick is on the extension to make sure to "squeeze" the muscle.
    ...karoline...
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    Registered User frankie01's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tyrbolift View Post
    Kickbacks serve more for creating shape than adding size. Therefore, they should be done towards the end of the tri workout, lest they weaken your tri's prior to the heavy mass building ones.
    its shape im after too so theyl stay in, thanks
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    Registered User frankie01's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by karoline8 View Post
    I don't think they are, I've always done them, at one point they were the only direct excercise I did for tri's and I grew they this way as a result. I started with 5lb db's and am now up to 38lbs, though now I do incorporate other excercises in my routine I still do them on a regular basis. The trick is on the extension to make sure to "squeeze" the muscle.
    wow 38lb on a tripcep ive started on 7kg is that a good starting point do you think?il be sure to squeeze , i didnt know that bit thanks
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    Originally Posted by frankie01 View Post
    wow 38lb on a tripcep ive started on 7kg is that a good starting point do you think?il be sure to squeeze , i didnt know that bit thanks
    I havnt done kickbacks in years but I doubt I could do one anywhere close to properly at 38 lbs. Focus on form before trying to do massive weight.
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    Well, isn't a combination of.....increased size of the muscle and fat burning what brings out the "shape" of the muscle?...not an specific exercise?..I think although kickbacks are good, there are other more efficient exercises to bring out the Tris.....in my opinion!
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    No they are not useless, I wouldn't call any exercise useless. It's all dependant on the individual performing the exercise. If you like them then keep doing them, if not cange them.
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    They are great for the triceps if you can control them properly. If you can't do them without moving the elbows, then you are using too much weight. I'm with the guy above who said 38lbs is a crap-ton of weight for that exercise. I use 15-20 lbs with slow, control movements on one plane.
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    Originally Posted by frankie01 View Post
    its shape im after too so theyl stay in, thanks
    For shape he means the shape of the muscle fibers in advanced bodybuilding. Not shape in the sense of the shape of the arm, that is just muscle heads + bodyfat. Unless you're advanced you shouldn't worry about shaping anything, just working all the heads imo.
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    with db: YES. with cable, hell no. i used them to get a ballin ass long head srs
    Egg foo young, En lo mein, so come on baby and have it just the same woooooynga
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    Originally Posted by frankie01 View Post
    wow 38lb on a tripcep ive started on 7kg is that a good starting point do you think?il be sure to squeeze , i didnt know that bit thanks
    That's more than I started with, and if you can't hold the contraction I'd say start with a bit less...it took me years to build up enough to do kicks with 38lbs (and I do hold the contractions), as I said I started with 5lbs , there's no rush (I hope). Dips are great for working the tri's as well...
    ...karoline...
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    Yes, that is right.

    Women should lift weights like male bodybuilders, but generally for higher rep sets. You won't get bulky because you can't as women are physiologically and hormonally different from men. Due to that, you may as well throw away any weightlifting book marketed as "for women" because the rules of weight lifting are no different than they are for men.

    The only exception is that women by physiological tendency carry about 7% more body fat (hips, breasts etc) and that pound for pound their upper bodies are only about 50% as strong as a male upper body. That is to say, if you only account for the total lean body mass of a woman, her lower body can be as strong as a man of the same lean body weight, while her upper body tends to be more like half as strong as a man of the same lean body weight.

    Whatever you weigh, consider yourself as though you are a man of that weight and hold yourself to the same standards. If you weigh 95 pounds, 115 pounds, 135 pounds, whatever it may be, you should be able to squat and deadlift at least your body weight right from the start and aim to work up to squatting and deadlifting at least double your weight. You should also aim for a bodyweight bench press just as men do, only that will be made much easier by the fact that you likely weigh about half of what a man weighs and that strength/size ratios tend to go up as people get smaller.

    It's not only possible but common place among athletic women; I hang out with female rugby and lacrosse players and they can easily do as I have said. I know girls who deadlift 300 pounds, squat 225 and bench press 150, and they're not just skinny/cute/whatever but they're actually sexy and toned looking. I'd advise all women to try to become like them.

    I'm a NSCA certified strength and conditioning specialist, and one of my professional specialties is teaching women how to lift weights right - not necessarily because that's a profitable thing to spend your time on but because it's a good thing to do. The age of skinny, weak, frail women has got to come to an end and I intend to do my part.

    If you ever have any questions about weight lifting for women, do not hesitate to ask me. I'll tell you anything you could ever want to know and then some.
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    Originally Posted by joenj07087 View Post
    Well, isn't a combination of.....increased size of the muscle and fat burning what brings out the "shape" of the muscle?...not an specific exercise?..I think although kickbacks are good, there are other more efficient exercises to bring out the Tris.....in my opinion!
    thats what the boo said, a one arm row was one of there suggestions.
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    Registered User frankie01's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kanis999 View Post
    They are great for the triceps if you can control them properly. If you can't do them without moving the elbows, then you are using too much weight. I'm with the guy above who said 38lbs is a crap-ton of weight for that exercise. I use 15-20 lbs with slow, control movements on one plane.
    i can do 7g with good form but also feeling it if you now what i mean. fro what im reading in nrolfw is that us women need to step away fro the lighter weights to get any results with weights so i trying that but it does get a bit intimidating walking over to the free weight section alone with a load of blokes over there
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    Originally Posted by karoline8 View Post
    That's more than I started with, and if you can't hold the contraction I'd say start with a bit less...it took me years to build up enough to do kicks with 38lbs (and I do hold the contractions), as I said I started with 5lbs , there's no rush (I hope). Dips are great for working the tri's as well...
    its not exactly me starting, ive always used weights but not with any real knowledge and im reading more into it now and 7kg works me hard doing 3 sets of 12 s but i do it with good form as i dont rush. do you think thats ok? you got great shape in your arms by the way!
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    Registered User frankie01's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MrMisanthrope View Post
    Yes, that is right.

    Women should lift weights like male bodybuilders, but generally for higher rep sets. You won't get bulky because you can't as women are physiologically and hormonally different from men. Due to that, you may as well throw away any weightlifting book marketed as "for women" because the rules of weight lifting are no different than they are for men.

    The only exception is that women by physiological tendency carry about 7% more body fat (hips, breasts etc) and that pound for pound their upper bodies are only about 50% as strong as a male upper body. That is to say, if you only account for the total lean body mass of a woman, her lower body can be as strong as a man of the same lean body weight, while her upper body tends to be more like half as strong as a man of the same lean body weight.

    Whatever you weigh, consider yourself as though you are a man of that weight and hold yourself to the same standards. If you weigh 95 pounds, 115 pounds, 135 pounds, whatever it may be, you should be able to squat and deadlift at least your body weight right from the start and aim to work up to squatting and deadlifting at least double your weight. You should also aim for a bodyweight bench press just as men do, only that will be made much easier by the fact that you likely weigh about half of what a man weighs and that strength/size ratios tend to go up as people get smaller.

    It's not only possible but common place among athletic women; I hang out with female rugby and lacrosse players and they can easily do as I have said. I know girls who deadlift 300 pounds, squat 225 and bench press 150, and they're not just skinny/cute/whatever but they're actually sexy and toned looking. I'd advise all women to try to become like them.

    I'm a NSCA certified strength and conditioning specialist, and one of my professional specialties is teaching women how to lift weights right - not necessarily because that's a profitable thing to spend your time on but because it's a good thing to do. The age of skinny, weak, frail women has got to come to an end and I intend to do my part.

    If you ever have any questions about weight lifting for women, do not hesitate to ask me. I'll tell you anything you could ever want to know and then some.
    well thanks for that as i will need advice and after having issues around body image for years i realise i dont want to conform to societies size zero and look ill and frail i want to look womanly and curvy but healthy and strong!
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    Originally Posted by MrMisanthrope View Post
    Yes, that is right.

    Women should lift weights like male bodybuilders, but generally for higher rep sets. You won't get bulky because you can't as women are physiologically and hormonally different from men. Due to that, you may as well throw away any weightlifting book marketed as "for women" because the rules of weight lifting are no different than they are for men.

    The only exception is that women by physiological tendency carry about 7% more body fat (hips, breasts etc) and that pound for pound their upper bodies are only about 50% as strong as a male upper body. That is to say, if you only account for the total lean body mass of a woman, her lower body can be as strong as a man of the same lean body weight, while her upper body tends to be more like half as strong as a man of the same lean body weight.

    Whatever you weigh, consider yourself as though you are a man of that weight and hold yourself to the same standards. If you weigh 95 pounds, 115 pounds, 135 pounds, whatever it may be, you should be able to squat and deadlift at least your body weight right from the start and aim to work up to squatting and deadlifting at least double your weight. You should also aim for a bodyweight bench press just as men do, only that will be made much easier by the fact that you likely weigh about half of what a man weighs and that strength/size ratios tend to go up as people get smaller.

    It's not only possible but common place among athletic women; I hang out with female rugby and lacrosse players and they can easily do as I have said. I know girls who deadlift 300 pounds, squat 225 and bench press 150, and they're not just skinny/cute/whatever but they're actually sexy and toned looking. I'd advise all women to try to become like them.

    I'm a NSCA certified strength and conditioning specialist, and one of my professional specialties is teaching women how to lift weights right - not necessarily because that's a profitable thing to spend your time on but because it's a good thing to do. The age of skinny, weak, frail women has got to come to an end and I intend to do my part.

    If you ever have any questions about weight lifting for women, do not hesitate to ask me. I'll tell you anything you could ever want to know and then some.
    That's not true, a woman is nowhere near as strong as a man not even pound per pound. Not even in the lower body.

    http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLi...Standards.html


    Plus telling people online how much they should do based only on how they weight is nonsense. There's a difference in a person body structure.
    Do you realize that benching e.g. 165 lbs for me is much more difficult than for a guy of my same weight but that is 5'7''. It doesn't mean I trained incorrectly, it just means that I have a weaker body and it will take me more time to do the lifts of stockier guy of my same weight.




    PS triceps kickback is an awful exercise IMO.
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    i was worried then that im weak as i couldnt squat my weight with good form straight off
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    No they aren't useless.

    Here is average weight lifting standards for males and females.
    http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLi...hStandards.htm
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    My two yen: Kickbacks are a good exercise. Period. The problem--if you want to call it that--is that you're limited to the amount of weight you can do. If you look at it from a mass-building perspective, then close-grip benches are probably your best bet or dips, assuming they don't hurt your shoulders. Then you'd have lying extensions with a barbell or seated French curls. So you have to ask yourself, which can I handle more weight on? The obvious answer is close-grips/dips/extensions.

    Having said that, kickbacks CAN be a mass builder but it's going to take a lot more time. As for your goals, OP, don't worry about the weight for the moment; I think you're overanalyzing things. (That isn't such a bad thing, but too much is, well...). Just worry about what you can do and try and add more weight and/or reps over time. Slow and steady will win the race for you. Hope this helps a little.
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    Originally Posted by GuyJin View Post
    My two yen: Kickbacks are a good exercise. Period. The problem--if you want to call it that--is that you're limited to the amount of weight you can do. If you look at it from a mass-building perspective, then close-grip benches are probably your best bet or dips, assuming they don't hurt your shoulders. Then you'd have lying extensions with a barbell or seated French curls. So you have to ask yourself, which can I handle more weight on? The obvious answer is close-grips/dips/extensions.

    Having said that, kickbacks CAN be a mass builder but it's going to take a lot more time. As for your goals, OP, don't worry about the weight for the moment; I think you're overanalyzing things. (That isn't such a bad thing, but too much is, well...). Just worry about what you can do and try and add more weight and/or reps over time. Slow and steady will win the race for you. Hope this helps a little.
    thanks any advice helps me and im not too worried about the weight just like to feel im working hard
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    Originally Posted by noflyingcars View Post
    That's not true, a woman is nowhere near as strong as a man not even pound per pound. Not even in the lower body.

    Do you realize that benching e.g. 165 lbs for me is much more difficult than for a guy of my same weight but that is 5'7''.
    I'm sorry you're skinny, but I believe human beings have potential. I'm going to trust my advanced levels of certification and my family's multigenerational relationship with the fitness industry before I trust a link to exrx. Good luck with your fitness goals in 2011.







    Frankie, if you couldn't squat your bodyweight with good form, that's fine. The majority of women I see using weights have no idea what they're truly capable of. Just set that as a short term goal - squat bodyweight for one rep with decent form. There's no need to try to jump into it all at once either, simply add 5-10 pounds to whatever you currently squat and use that weight in your workouts until it feels easy, then add more. Do that consistently and you'll be at 1.5x bodyweight before you even know it.

    I suggest that every workout of yours incorporate 3x12 for squats, close grip bench presses, deadlifts and push presses. Do that every time you go to the gym and then do smaller moves etc. as you see fit. Whatever result you're looking for, you'll get it that way.

    It'd also be a good idea to do pushups and pullups. If you cannot currently do pullups (as many ladies understandably can't), there is a very fast way to get there. All you have to do is negatives. I suggest jumping to the bar or using a plyometric box to get up to the bar, holding the top of a pullup and then lowering yourself to the bottom position as slowly as humanly possible. Put everything you have into it. Try to pause at the middle if possible. Since for anybody who cannot currently do pullups these would be individual max efforts, you can take any amount of rest in between them you want. I suggest doing 5 of those a day, even spread out over the day but not too much more because they're hard on the tendons. If you do that every day for at least 10 days while consuming lots of protein and sleeping well, you'll do unassisted pullups in about one week, and be a maniac at pullups in a very short amount of time. Notice how rather than being bulky as would commonly be assumed, the girl in the video doing pullups has an awesome back and every comment on the video is about how hot she is.

    The same logic applies to pushups as well - many ladies cannot do normal military style pushups with the elbows in, and so rather than them wasting time on pushups with their knees to the ground it's a better idea that they invest maximum effort in pushup negatives with strict form until they can do the real thing.

    So - pushups, pullups, squat, bench press, deadlift, push press. I don't intend to tell you what to do or interrupt any of your current plans, but doing all of the above every workout would certainly take you places fast.
    Last edited by MrMisanthrope; 08-13-2011 at 09:31 AM.
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    I dont think they are useless but there are many better movements for the triceps to hit all the tricep heads...
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    They aren't useless, they just don't seem to be the best triceps movement. My guess is they'd get less hate if they had a compound barbell version but the bar would have to pass through your hips to do that.
    Originally Posted by Tyrbolift View Post
    Kickbacks serve more for creating shape than adding size. Therefore, they should be done towards the end of the tri workout, lest they weaken your tri's prior to the heavy mass building ones.
    Could you explain the difference between 'mass' and 'shape' movements? I'm in the dark on this. I thought an increase in size was what altered muscle's shape. If the kickback does not create hypertrophy, how else does it 'shape' the triceps? What means?

    Originally Posted by frankie01 View Post
    its shape im after too so theyl stay in, thanks
    Pretty sure muscles grow or don't grow, and the shape is revealed through body fat reduction.

    Originally Posted by joenj07087 View Post
    Well, isn't a combination of.....increased size of the muscle and fat burning what brings out the "shape" of the muscle?...not an specific exercise?.
    That's what I thought too.

    Originally Posted by joenj07087 View Post
    I think although kickbacks are good, there are other more efficient exercises to bring out the Tris.....in my opinion!
    Probably yeah, like push downs or whatever, probably extensions/crusher/frenchpress or whatever too. Some people with less means (no pulldown machine, no bench) could find it a really good option though. One problem with the 'efficiency' end to me is that people actually do kickbacks many different ways. A lot of people don't bring their elbow high enough and may not even get 90 degrees of tension, and some people like to do a biceps curl to move the elbow through it's full RoM when you're supposed to stop when the hand's under the elbow.

    Originally Posted by noflyingcars View Post
    For shape he means the shape of the muscle fibers in advanced bodybuilding. Not shape in the sense of the shape of the arm, that is just muscle heads + bodyfat. Unless you're advanced you shouldn't worry about shaping anything, just working all the heads imo.
    I'd still question what it shapes and how it does so differently from other movements. Kickback obviously has max tension when the elbow is fully extended, is one of the heads more responsible than the other 2 for the last degrees of extension? Like I think I read one of the heads of the quads is, though can't remember which, vastus intermedius maybe?

    Originally Posted by Tomohawk92 View Post
    with db: YES. with cable, hell no.
    I don't understand why it'd be bad with cables as long as the grip worked out and the origin of the pulley was properly adjusted. It might be more comfortable to use the rope attachment with them right?

    Originally Posted by MrMisanthrope View Post
    You won't get bulky because you can't as women are physiologically and hormonally different from men.
    Men are also hormonally different from men, and women are hormonally different from women. This is actually exaggerated: women who train very intensely CAN get 'bulky' if they want to. But people who fear it happening by accident are paranoid, it's more difficult for women and you don't wake up being Ms Olympia.
    Originally Posted by MrMisanthrope View Post
    Due to that, you may as well throw away any weightlifting book marketed as "for women" because the rules of weight lifting are no different than they are for men.
    This is untrue, women's weightlifting books can have good observations in regards to unique challenges women may face, or exercises they may wish to specialize in. There might be more of an emphasis on 'glutes', for example, or notes on how to do exercise without breasts getting in the way, or the important of upper back strength for holding your boobs, or maybe just more specialization on legs in general since some men's books avoid it compared to the emphasis on arms.
    Originally Posted by MrMisanthrope View Post
    You should also aim for a bodyweight bench press just as men do, only that will be made much easier by the fact that you likely weigh about half of what a man weighs and that strength/size ratios tend to go up as people get smaller.
    I'm not sure what this is based on, average guy is 250 average woman 125 or something? Usually they're bit more than half of us =P

    Originally Posted by wolfpilp View Post
    I dont think they are useless but there are many better movements for the triceps to hit all the tricep heads...
    This meant to imply there's a head the kickback doesn't hit?
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    Originally Posted by MrMisanthrope View Post
    I'm sorry you're skinny, but I believe human beings have potential. I'm going to trust my advanced levels of certification and my family's multigenerational relationship with the fitness industry before I trust a link to exrx. Good luck with your fitness goals in 2011.







    Frankie, if you couldn't squat your bodyweight with good form, that's fine. The majority of women I see using weights have no idea what they're truly capable of. Just set that as a short term goal - squat bodyweight for one rep with decent form. There's no need to try to jump into it all at once either, simply add 5-10 pounds to whatever you currently squat and use that weight in your workouts until it feels easy, then add more. Do that consistently and you'll be at 1.5x bodyweight before you even know it.

    I suggest that every workout of yours incorporate 3x12 for squats, close grip bench presses, deadlifts and push presses. Do that every time you go to the gym and then do smaller moves etc. as you see fit. Whatever result you're looking for, you'll get it that way.

    It'd also be a good idea to do pushups and pullups. If you cannot currently do pullups (as many ladies understandably can't), there is a very fast way to get there. All you have to do is negatives. I suggest jumping to the bar or using a plyometric box to get up to the bar, holding the top of a pullup and then lowering yourself to the bottom position as slowly as humanly possible. Put everything you have into it. Try to pause at the middle if possible. Since for anybody who cannot currently do pullups these would be individual max efforts, you can take any amount of rest in between them you want. I suggest doing 5 of those a day, even spread out over the day but not too much more because they're hard on the tendons. If you do that every day for at least 10 days while consuming lots of protein and sleeping well, you'll do unassisted pullups in about one week, and be a maniac at pullups in a very short amount of time. Notice how rather than being bulky as would commonly be assumed, the girl in the video doing pullups has an awesome back and every comment on the video is about how hot she is.

    The same logic applies to pushups as well - many ladies cannot do normal military style pushups with the elbows in, and so rather than them wasting time on pushups with their knees to the ground it's a better idea that they invest maximum effort in pushup negatives with strict form until they can do the real thing.

    So - pushups, pullups, squat, bench press, deadlift, push press. I don't intend to tell you what to do or interrupt any of your current plans, but doing all of the above every workout would certainly take you places fast.
    hi thanks for replying. i can do push ups without my knees to the ground and as for squats at the moment i can squat 20kgs and it would be easy to squat more but i train alone and getting the dumbar on my shoulders is the problem not squatting
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    I don't feel much benefit from the movement. But, it's seems the thread is slightly off tangent from the title, so I'll leave it at that.
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    in my opinion no exercise is useless if it works for you. i use kickbacks in my tricep routines alot. not every week but probably every couple weeks. i switch up from db's and the cables. i like the cable one a bit more cause it offers continuous tension and you can really hold the squeeze and contract the entire tri area. i usually do higher reps and do them at the end of my workout. but they are definitely not useless my man. i see alot of pros use them as well. and like i said in the first sentence, if they work for you, then they are not useless.
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    Smile Not for me

    Hi
    Personally I found it useless
    It didn't add size but for a woman if you want a nice cut and shape if you do
    3 sets 12 10 10
    It will serve nicely

    If you want size and cut
    3 sets tricep pushdowns 12 10 8
    3 sets skulls 12 10 8

    Cheers
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    in on broscience thread
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