I'm having trouble targeting the upper back.

[gymgrown]

I do reverse flyes, rows, deadlifts, pullups, and an exercise where I hold my body out horizontal from a rack and pull weights upward with my arms. (Not in that order). At the end of the WO, my back doesn't feel fatigued, and I don't feel satisfied. I feel like I'm getting more of an arm workout.

How can I target the upper back specifically?

[Marx2000]

Its hard for me to feel back aswell. I believe its the same with many others in this site. Remember soreness does no equal gains. So if your growing no worries.

[Diana Meeque]

i feel the same way. but bent over rows work pretty good imo.... i mean, i can really feel it in my upper back.

[ecto-1]

Are you talking about traps? You could add shrugs in there. Wide grip on your deadlifts and pullups will also widen your lats. Because the arms do come in to play so much with upper back exercises, focus on the mind-muscle connection and lower the weight until you really feel your back doing the work if you have to. Another suggestion would be to have someone watch you and critique your form. If your arms are getting more of a workout, chances are that there are improvements to be made there. Good luck!

[Tyrbolift]

Do more Kelso-shrug type exercises. Arms are not involved and you can go heavier in most instances.

[TheVirtualTaco]

Are you doing Pendlay rows?
If not, try them.

[MoGeaYuglay]

T-Bar rows realllllly hit my back each and everytime, but I don't do quite often, maybe that has something to do with it. If you are pulling with heavy ass weight, you are indeed working your back. Perhaps you just have good recovery for back? Have you tried getting a dipping belt, strapping it up with a hundred pounds plus and just hang there for as long as you can to stretch out?

[gymgrown]

Pendlay rows are where your body is horizontal and you're pulling a barbell up, right? I did a google search but couldn't find a description.
I do something like that but with dumbells, and it feels pretty good. It's about the best thing I've got. It has some limitations though.

I tried to do bodyweight rows today, where you hang on a bar, body facing the ceiling, and pull yourself up. Felt like a pure arm workout.

If your arms are getting more of a workout, chances are that there are improvements to be made there. Good luck!

That's what I was afraid of. I do notice that the arms are the limiting factor in most of my chest workouts, so it could be similar for back. As the arms have progressed, the chest is easier to hit.

Not targeting the traps; I do that on shoulder day. But speaking of that, what are Kelso type shrugs?


Thanks for the advice guys, keep it coming.

[The Hammering Process]

Use straps to take some of that force out of your arms and try to make it feel like your pulling wiht your elbows and not yoru arms...remember to focus your muscles when you are lifting squeeze the area your trying to hit it's easyer to do this using lighter weight

[blinky99]

do houstons (sp?) i gurantee youll feel it in your upper back/shouler areas

[Mike750]

As far as taking the arms out of it, so you use a thumbless grip? This is supposed to help limit the amount of work the arms will do. Other than that, I would also go the strap route A: as a last resort, B: only until you can lock in the feeling, then it would be back to strapless to keep up grip.

Also, I mention this a lot with the mind-muscle connection and it may sound odd, but do the excercise with your eyes closed to help eliminate the smallest visual distractions and better concentrate on the feel of the excercise.

[kethnaab]

There are 3 basic variations of the bent row, and they are separated by the angle of the upper body

1) the "Yates row", popularized by the previous Mr. Olympia, involves an upper body that is bent over at approximately 60 degrees above parallel, i.e. just basically a "forward lean".

It allows for a tremendous amount of weight, and it is a brutal upper/inner back workout. It also blows up the traps, but if you have weak lats, you will not get any further lat development. In other words, your traps will overpower your lats completely unless you have strong lats. This is NOT a "bring up your weak lats" type exercise. This is a "my lats kick ass, let's try something new to make them kick MORE ass" type of exercise.

Yates typically performed this with an underhand grip. He also tore a biceps as a result. I used this with great success, but I used an overhand grip as the underhand grip tore the hell out of my elbows. In both cases, a close grip is used, and you pull to the lower portion of the gut, underneath the navel.

Tips: NEVER straighten your elbows all the way at the bottom of the motion, but allow your shoulders to shrug downward into a full stretch for the "start" position. Perform a shoulder shrug to begin the exercise, then pull hard with the lats (i.e. yank elbows up and back) so the bar digs into your lower belly, and control the bar slowly back to the start position and full stretch. At the top of the motion, arch your upper back/lats HARD (NOT just your lower back!) and try to hold the bar to your navel for a full 1-count

2) The "Pendlay/JS row" is probably the exact *opposite* end of the spectrum as far as execution and body position. Maintaining a PERFECTLY PARALLEL upper body is the key. You will also use a relatively wide grip (I keep pinkies approximately 1/2" inside outer knurling on standard Olympic bar), and pull the bar into your lower ribcage/upper gut area. You must "deload" between *every* repetition. That is, you actually put the bar down and release your grip so that you remove any type of static tension in the muscles at that time. Using the wider grip "reduces" the work the biceps has to do when you row so high on your body (lower ribcage vs. navel area)

Start off with the bar on the floor. Get your body into a parallel position initially. Keeping your upper body parallel, allow your shoulder blades to roll forward so that you can grip the bar as explained above. Without standing upright at all, explosively contract your shoulder blades together, and KEEP YOUR HIPS MOTIONLESS. There is *no* movement at the hips, i.e. do NOT stand up during this motion, you maintain the parallel upper body position throughout. Your lower back arches hard, your elbows pull outward and behind the body, but you do not stand up at all. Slam the bar into your upper gut/lower ribcage, then control the weight downward while maintaining the parallel upper body position.

Tips: If you are able to row more than 135 with this exercise, use 35s so that you can get a better range of motion while pulling from more of a stretch position.
Use significantly less weight on this exercise than on Yates rows. It takes the traps out of the motion. For reference, I am able to use ALOT more weight on Yates rows than for Pendlay's for 5 "good" reps, a good 25-35% reduction in weight.
Check my stupid picture for additional "visual" reinforcement of body position with Pendlay's.

3) Your basic "vanilla" bent row involves a motion and body position about halfway between the 2 extremes mentioned above. Body position somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees, whichever is comfortable. hand position can be anywhere you feel you want to work. Your elbow flexors, rear delts, and traps can all assist pretty powerfully in this exercise, so it is easy to "lose" the motion by trying to use an excessive amount of weight. This will give you great rear delts and traps, but not much lat development.
Wide and close grips both work the lats hard, assuming proper execution and the ability of the trainee to force the lats to be the prime movers.
Generally, the wider your grip, the higher along your body you will want to pull. If you use a wide grip, pull to your upper gut/lower ribcage. If you use a closer grip, pull to your lower belly beneath your navel.

Don't take these as variations of the same exercise. Take these as completely different exercises.

If you have issues "feeling" your back working, then train back 3-5 times per week for a few weeks. No, you won't die. But you will get sore in the area, and you will train while sore (not the devil that everyoen thinks it is, I do this for back all the time) and you will get IMMEDIATE feedback while training the back that, in fact, you ARE training it. Each adjustment you make to body position and elbow pull angle will be felt in your upper back, so you will learn how to do the exercises properly. Some people (myself included) do not have that "mind-muscle link" that we've read about in the magazines. This is a way you can develop that.

[Powerbuilt]

I have two awsome lifts I found to hit mid/upper back.

1. BO DB Row:
Position. I start by standing, feet shoulder width apart. I bend slightly at the waist so I am leaning over slightly. Take two dumbbells (one in each hand). Starting position should be with the dumbbells right above your quads. Now the secret form to these is it has a slight shrugging motion while bringing your elbows back and up in a row fashion. You need to change your mindset and focus completely on your back pulling the Bells. Let your elbows lead the arms back. With practice you’ll feel your back alone pulling. About the 6th rep you’ll fell your trap light up and ache. Power three more reps threw it then drop em.

I like doing 4 sets of 10,8,8,6

2. Standing single DB Rows.
Position: Place on hand on your knee and the other holding the bell. Slightly lean over. Now lower the bell untill you feel the stretch the middle trap. You’ll notice that with your hand on your knee, your back will pivot over stressing the trap used. I like to throw on straps and rep out the 120s for the last set on these. Same as above though. Your arm involuntarily lifts. If you feel your bicep flexing hard, you’re using your arms and not your back. Let that back work like a meat lever hauling the bell.

You will see in both of these lifts that when focusing on your back that your ROM will shorten. This is perfect form. When I started incorporating these lifts last year my mid trap started to show define improvement in thickness and beautiful striations running vertical accost my mid trap. It has also helped separate the trap from the lat showing better separation when hitting Lat flares.

[ad$]

try to think of your hands as hooks, and pull with your elbows. i find that helps me concentrate on using my back more to do the exercise. all the rows described in here will target your upper back, so just stick with it and dont forget to eat. Another thing is that your traps play a huge part in making your upper back look huge so add shrugs (diffrent variation such as close grip BB, DB, incline, behind the back etc) and deadlifts if your not already doing them.

[gymgrown]

Thanks guys! There's a bunch of good stuff here I'll start putting into practice.

kethnaab, I created a picture of what I do that's close to Pendlay rows, adapted from your jpeg. Attached.

I looked at an anatomical picture of the back muscles, and I'm surprised to find that the traps go all the way down to the middle of your back. Does that mean I should start doing shrugs on back day instead of shoulder day? Also, what muscle does the Pendlay row target? Lower traps?

Today the back muscles right around my shoulders, above the shoulder blades, are a little sore, which is nice. My lats and mid back feel fresh though.

Dan

[gymgrown]

For reference, the back muscles:

[Traug]

^--- I looked in the mirror and I don't think that I have any of those. I wonder if I got cheated!

[ecto-1]

For reference, the back muscles:

Anyone got some good exercises for that pesky Teres Minor?

[Guinness5.0]

Dynamic pulling would help you out a TON. The full Olympic lifts are a great example but are tough to learn. Things like snatch-grip high pulls and power cleans will blow your upper back/trap area up. There are vids in this link:
http://www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter/...ideo_index.htm

[Robinth3Hood]

Behind the head pulldowns. Tilt your head slightly downward, and pull the bar down to the knot in the middle of your head and flex, raise your arms back up keeping tension on your back the whole time.


Rear delt raises, shrug and hold at highest point, keep tension on your traps the entire time. Throw in some DB Shrugs. I keep reading all this crap on here on rows and rows and rows, but for me at least, that seems to work my middle back and lats more than my rear delts, traps, and rhomboids, which I consider part of my upper back....

I find that more than ANYTHING building muscle in your "pull" muscles is all about that "tut"

Oh! and nothing beats rows, pullups, and deadlifts. nothing. if I had 30 minutes to do back thats what I'd do. i'm just saying for upperback emphasis I feel the aformentioned exercises work best.

sorry about the crappy punctuation, capitalization, and possiblly spelling.

[I dont work at Ballys]

wow nice thread digging. looks like last year people used to actually help eachother on the exercise forum. oh the good ole days...

[gymgrown]

Yeah, I was pretty happy about how this thread came out. This is sort of like the one-year anniversary!

[Defiant1]

I just posted this in another thread:

Fairly common problem. Most people are not "wired" into their backs like they are their arms.

Fyi, often the arms have a high percentage of Fast twitch muscle fibers, while the lats and especially the teres are a lower percentage.

Here are some things that have worked for me:

1. Use straps

2. Keep hands high on bar

3. When you do rows, to hit your lats, pull the the waist/hip area. This maximizes lat involvement and minimizes arm involvement.

4. On back work, keep your reps higher to work the back muscles and avoid having the biceps fatigue first (see fiber ratios above)

5. On close grip pulldowns, pull toward your sternum and lean back. This maximizes lat range of motion and minimizes arm ROM.

6. On cable rows, let the handle pull you forward, so your lats are pre-stretched at the beginning of the exercis-again, pull to the lower stomach

7. Don't let your arms fully straighten between reps. Keep a SLIGHT bend in the stretch position. This prevents the arms from having to do the poor leverage initial pull, and keeps tension on the back.

8. Experiment with lat isolation exercises, like straight arm pulldowns (middle of page on link below) and pullovers, with a db or bb or a machine.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exer...ainMuscle=Lats

9. Use the Vince Gironda trick of holding the contracted position for a 2 count to develop "nerve force" or coordination in your back muscles

10. Experiment with different exercises, go with the ones that feel the best

[KopyKat]

I just posted this in another thread:

Fairly common problem. Most people are not "wired" into their backs like they are their arms.

Fyi, often the arms have a high percentage of Fast twitch muscle fibers, while the lats and especially the teres are a lower percentage.

Here are some things that have worked for me:

1. Use straps

2. Keep hands high on bar

3. When you do rows, to hit your lats, pull the the waist/hip area. This maximizes lat involvement and minimizes arm involvement.

4. On back work, keep your reps higher to work the back muscles and avoid having the biceps fatigue first (see fiber ratios above)

5. On close grip pulldowns, pull toward your sternum and lean back. This maximizes lat range of motion and minimizes arm ROM.

6. On cable rows, let the handle pull you forward, so your lats are pre-stretched at the beginning of the exercis-again, pull to the lower stomach

7. Don't let your arms fully straighten between reps. Keep a SLIGHT bend in the stretch position. This prevents the arms from having to do the poor leverage initial pull, and keeps tension on the back.

8. Experiment with lat isolation exercises, like straight arm pulldowns (middle of page on link below) and pullovers, with a db or bb or a machine.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exer...ainMuscle=Lats

9. Use the Vince Gironda trick of holding the contracted position for a 2 count to develop "nerve force" or coordination in your back muscles

10. Experiment with different exercises, go with the ones that feel the best

Amazing post as usual. All the info you need is right here! I like number 9 there, i found this to really help me "feel" the back working good and it really does work. The more you get into that "groove" the more you can target it.

[Metallicats826]

T-Bar rows realllllly hit my back each and everytime, but I don't do quite often, maybe that has something to do with it. If you are pulling with heavy ass weight, you are indeed working your back. Perhaps you just have good recovery for back? Have you tried getting a dipping belt, strapping it up with a hundred pounds plus and just hang there for as long as you can to stretch out?

T-bars and seated rows are the best i've experienced for upper back

[RippedGuitarist]

I just posted this in another thread:

Fairly common problem. Most people are not "wired" into their backs like they are their arms.

Fyi, often the arms have a high percentage of Fast twitch muscle fibers, while the lats and especially the teres are a lower percentage.

Here are some things that have worked for me:

1. Use straps

2. Keep hands high on bar

3. When you do rows, to hit your lats, pull the the waist/hip area. This maximizes lat involvement and minimizes arm involvement.

4. On back work, keep your reps higher to work the back muscles and avoid having the biceps fatigue first (see fiber ratios above)

5. On close grip pulldowns, pull toward your sternum and lean back. This maximizes lat range of motion and minimizes arm ROM.

6. On cable rows, let the handle pull you forward, so your lats are pre-stretched at the beginning of the exercis-again, pull to the lower stomach

7. Don't let your arms fully straighten between reps. Keep a SLIGHT bend in the stretch position. This prevents the arms from having to do the poor leverage initial pull, and keeps tension on the back.

8. Experiment with lat isolation exercises, like straight arm pulldowns (middle of page on link below) and pullovers, with a db or bb or a machine.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exer...ainMuscle=Lats

9. Use the Vince Gironda trick of holding the contracted position for a 2 count to develop "nerve force" or coordination in your back muscles

10. Experiment with different exercises, go with the ones that feel the best

Good stuff there. Number 9 is one of the things that really got my back growing. Holding that contraction for a two count will definitely help you feel it, and it works wonders for growth. The contraction is so important for back. Nowadays I do more like a one count, but I always pause the contraction on back.