The Dark Side Of Meditation (Long Post w/ videos)

[BetaAsPhuck]

This brah is an ex new age 'guru' turned Christian.

In this video he has compiled research about the negative effects of meditation.

What was also shocking to me was a very popular new age youtuber, talking about how (paraphrasing) "suicidal thoughts, cycles of depression, promiscuity, literally acting like an animal, and the reemergence of addictions, are very common if you practice meditation for more than a year... And it will continue to happen after periodically."




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Sbs0YOGk8

Another meditation teacher here talks about meditation...

(Paraphrasing) "Meditation was for spiritual awakening, it was not for making you feel better, it was not for getting rid of anxiety. In fact if you get serious enough into meditation for a time, it massively increases anxiety."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAo1ditMN0k

Some reported side effects; Anxiety, panic attacks, depression, depersonalization/derealization, hallucination, involuntary movements, and psychosis requiring hospitalization.


I've done some different forms of meditation on and off in the past, and although I was largely OK, I have experienced negative side effects at times. (Luckily, I quit practicing each time after 2 or 3 months). Though I did get a really bad reaction to a 'new age' meditation that I did, I couldn't get past 3 sessions of doing it because part of my head felt like it was in a vice.


The brah in the video cites 3 potential reasons for the negative side effects of breath watching, vipassana and transcendental meditation;

Secular reasons:

1) It strips away the defence mechanisms of the mind, that has been used to repress trauma so a person can function. And rather than a gradual look into trauma (like any good counsellor, therapist, or priest/pastor would advise) it can strip them away in an instant. Leaving some people flooded with anxiety, repressed memories, or depression.

Some people practice, and spend hours breaking down their defences and then develop panic disorders, depersonalizaton or psychosis when repressed emotions and memories overwhelm them psychologically.

2) You are changing the structure of your mind. People like Eckhart Tolle, Sam Harris and the 'non duality' crowd literally preach that is one of the benefits of meditation, that you 'no longer identify with the self', your fundamental sense of identity changes. Maybe it's not a good to fundamentally restructure how your mind works, maybe there are negative side effects when you do that.

Breath watching meditation, Vipassana mediation and Eckhart Tolle's advice turns your mind inward, you are monitoring your thoughts, feelings, and experiences of sensations. You aren't just taught to disassociate from negative/destructive thoughts, you are taught to disassociate/detach from all thoughts. Loving thoughts, analytical thoughts... Any and all thoughts.

A lot of research has been done into what makes people happy, and 'having a sense of self' isn't one of those reasons. It's about having positive close relationships, being grateful, being kind, and being in good health.


Spiritual reasons:

3) By changing the structure of you mind, you may unwittingly break down the natural protection (e.g. an egoic s you have against the influence of spirits. Using our thoughts is one of the ways in which we discern things, but by fundamentally detaching from thinking, you may be breaking down the natural defence of the mind. 'Dissolving the ego/sense of self' probably isn't a good thing.

Videos about the nature of Evil Spirits/Entities: Vid 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaqd9Fhsxpg Vid 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MVdffOh8ZA




Those are his reasons, and I'll add some others based on my own past interest in the New Age Movement;

1) I met and practiced with a New Age 'guru' for a while (no names) and what was an interesting perspective, was him saying that meditation has to be personalized. But we have a society (and profit motive) which teaches a one size fits all model of meditation. He said that what may be a great and beneficial form of meditation for one person, may be damaging for another person. He also said that even how long a person meditates needs to be tailored for each person. Despite not personally recommending anyone go down the 'new age' or 'non duality' path, I think he is right. From Christian Monks to Buddhist monks, people were given close relationships with mentors with deep experience - they weren't just given cookie cutter advice, or practiced using CDs and Apps.

2) It isn't good for the mind to be primarily turned inward, whether through overthinking or through mindfulness/Vipassana. Arguably for fulfillment, most of our time needs to be spent with a a balance between contemplation, and focus on others, our environment, and God. We spend a lot of our time staring at screens, or in artificial environments, and then we do meditation where we turn our focus inwards.



Alternatives to meditation;

For relaxation;

Progressive Muscle Relaxation - Straight to business. It's a practice purely designed for people to relax their tension... No need for 'detaching from thoughts' to do that.



Bridging - Basically for moments throughout the day, you focus your attention on sights, sounds, things you touch, etc. Because it focuses your mind on your environment, it turns down the volume of your thoughts and triggers a relaxation response. Just like our pre-civilization ancestors did, we periodically focus our attention on our environment.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Qk2rrYF48


For personal development;

1) Prayer - for the well being of yourself, and others.

Despite the name, Buddhists have a form of praying called Loving-Kindness meditation. Where you basically do rounds of praying for yourself, and praying for the well being of others. Literally the entire practice is praying that you and other people have good experiences.

Christians have also been advising that form of prayer for centuries, seemingly basing the practice on Jesus' 2 commandments; "Love your neighbour, as yourself" and "Love one another, as I have loved you." Jesus prayed for the well being of others, and so did the apostles.




Research on the benefits of prayer for your life;

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/ima...giveness_1.pdf

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/b...ess-meditation

(You don't need to worry about visualizing people like some Loving Kindness meditation people say you need to. You can pray for people without vividly imagining them.)


2) Thought/Belief challenging exercises.

Spending time (from a few weeks, to even a year) challenging damaging/destructive beliefs. By yourself, and/or with others. (It will be an emotional experience at times. And it can take a long period of time, for some beliefs to change.... And you might find that a few beliefs are interconnected.)

"I'm not good enough to be loved as I am."

"Other people should/are obliged/must do/I expect them to [insert what it is]" (As opposed to hoping that someone does that thing, and realizing that it's not a cosmic rule that the person is obligated or expected to do that thing.)

"I'm unacceptable because of [insert reason or reasons]."

"I'm worthless because of [insert reason or reasons]"

Spending time saying, writing, and/or drawing reasons and references supporting the opposite of the damaging/destructive belief. (e.g "I'm good enough to be loved as I am", "I hope that other people [insert thing you want people to do], but I realize that it's not a cosmic rule, and they aren't under my control".

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/docs/CompassionTRS.pdf

[WeBoutDat]

Interesting. Never got into meditation but have thought about it. Probably won’t bother with it now.

[KirkMcquest]

I have been meditating for YEARS and have experienced only good, positive changes. I belonged to a Zen center for a couple of years, met dozens of long-time meditators [ 30 years or more of serious/intense daily meditation ] and never heard any of the stories you mentioned.

To be honest the whole thing seems like a Christian extremist who is trying to take a dump on meditation to push christianity and prayer in its place....which is stupid because meditation and prayer are complimentary and not at all at odds with each other. Likewise Buddhism/Taoism are not at odds with Christianity either.

[Mcfreako]

Prayer > meditation

The answer is not within you. It’s within God.

[KirkMcquest]

Prayer > meditation

The answer is not within you. It’s within God.

...and God is within you. Meditate on that, sir.

[triception]

Would rep but on spread. This sort of stuff needs to become more well-known as mindfulness and meditation proliferates through society as a way to combat stress and perform better at work. It's all fun and games until someone loses an "I".

There is a dearth of useful information on difficult mental territory over at the Dharma Overground forums, which are hosted by Daniel Ingram, the author of Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha I and II. The verbiage they use to describe this sort of thing is the "Dark Night" phases and they view it a one stage along the path that all people go through during spiritual development, but the extent and specific effects differ across the board. Someone with great discipline and habits and little trauma may sail through the Dark Nigh and barely notice while another may flounder for years with hallucinations and psychosis.

My personal opinion is that meditation is beneficial in the long run as long as one has the knowledge and support with which to navigate through difficulties that may arise.

Another great resource on meditating for those with a history of trauma is Trauma-Based Mindfulness by Treleaven.

[Hnbn1]

I agree with you and recently I heard one or several psycho-analyst say it's important to not destroy the ego.

[DolphinPilot]

I meditate off and on. Still do it but not consistent at all. The depersonalization is legit, imo.

[Mcfreako]

...and God is within you. Meditate on that, sir.

hes within you if you have a relationship with him. And if you have a relationship with him then your focus is on him, not on yourself. Pray about this, my friend

[Silencespeaks]

Did not read a single word but mediation for me causes derealization and depersonalization (arguably the goal actually).

I tried it for a while during a period of emotional instability and crisis because people always recommend it for relaxation.

But it actually worsened my symptoms and made me disconnect and not in a good way. So I stopped doing it after a while.

[Offset645]

Would rep but on spread. This sort of stuff needs to become more well-known as mindfulness and meditation proliferates through society as a way to combat stress and perform better at work. It's all fun and games until someone loses an "I".

There is a dearth of useful information on difficult mental territory over at the Dharma Overground forums, which are hosted by Daniel Ingram, the author of Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha I and II. The verbiage they use to describe this sort of thing is the "Dark Night" phases and they view it a one stage along the path that all people go through during spiritual development, but the extent and specific effects differ across the board. Someone with great discipline and habits and little trauma may sail through the Dark Nigh and barely notice while another may flounder for years with hallucinations and psychosis.

My personal opinion is that meditation is beneficial in the long run as long as one has the knowledge and support with which to navigate through difficulties that may arise.

Another great resource on meditating for those with a history of trauma is Trauma-Based Mindfulness by Treleaven.

while another may flounder for years with hallucinations and psychosis.

This was me crew. 3-4 years of torture after my spiritual awakening. Sleep paralysis nearly every night, felt like I was going insane, extreme disassociation. I was dealing with life long depression and layers of trauma. I thought of ending it all countless times, shyt was unbearable. Now most of it is cleared due to chakra opening exercises and energy pulls, but my god sometimes I think I'd rather of lived with depression my entire life than go through that spirit crushing turmoil

[thehardg00dbye]

...and God is within you. Meditate on that, sir.

Mind=blown

[gluon]

sleeping 12+ hours every once in a while >>>>>>>>meditation

[triception]

This was me crew. 3-4 years of torture after my spiritual awakening. Sleep paralysis nearly every night, felt like I was going insane, extreme disassociation. I was dealing with life long depression and layers of trauma. I thought of ending it all countless times, shyt was unbearable. Now most of it is cleared due to chakra opening exercises and energy pulls, but my god sometimes I think I'd rather of lived with depression my entire life than go through that spirit crushing turmoil

Damn brah I'm sorry you went through that and am glad that you eventually were able to find come stability.

Some charts of what to expect in the Theravadan Path of Insight:









So generally people experience very pleasurable and beneficial effects and then get dumped into the Dark Night and need more sleep, have less focus, have a higher chance of mental illness, etc. This group believes that once you pass through the Arising and Passing Away that for the rest of your life you cycle through the negative stages and the A&P until you either die or you find guidance and acheive stream entry.

The messed up thing is that you can gain insight through things other than meditation practice. So there are tons of cases out there where a person's life is effected by this mental phenomena and they are completely unaware of it.

[Offset645]

Damn brah I'm sorry you went through that and am glad that you eventually were able to find come stability.

Some charts of what to expect in the Theravadan Path of Insight:

[img]https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/1372924199771-WXVE63WQP261R7AM6DZZ/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kPspEJLK_fdC7Gu7pjzzPdIUqsxRUq qbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIII bLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKc8RFaRXvwdWcwrRgbw5mHu8 4h5EpAnKUagvitmlAxlz6-kKL5jyeX1QCbuTSfowim/%C3%91ana+and+Pain-Pleasure.png?format=1000w[/mg]

[img]https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/1372924425986-Q3VY0QHJH8U1R6ZDR73G/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kPspEJLK_fdC7Gu7pjzzPdIUqsxRUq qbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIII bLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKc8RFaRXvwdWcwrRgbw5mHu8 4h5EpAnKUagvitmlAxlz6-kKL5jyeX1QCbuTSfowim/%C3%91anas+and+Sleep.png?format=1000w[/mg]

[img]https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/1372926009932-VWE4YWFBTWB4TIJER99K/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kPspEJLK_fdC7Gu7pjzzPdIUqsxRUq qbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIII bLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKc8RFaRXvwdWcwrRgbw5mHu8 4h5EpAnKUagvitmlAxlz6-kKL5jyeX1QCbuTSfowim/%C3%91anas+and+Mental+Illness.png?format=1000w[/mg]

[img]https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/1372926448517-0ESOLOJQZHUF5KBV6EEA/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kPspEJLK_fdC7Gu7pjzzPdIUqsxRUq qbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIII bLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKc8RFaRXvwdWcwrRgbw5mHu8 4h5EpAnKUagvitmlAxlz6-kKL5jyeX1QCbuTSfowim/%C3%91anas+and+Energetic+Phenomena.png?format=1000 w[img]

So generally people experience very pleasurable and beneficial effects and then get dumped into the Dark Night and need more sleep, have less focus, have a higher chance of mental illness, etc. This group believes that once you pass through the Arising and Passing Away that for the rest of your life you cycle through the negative stages and the A&P until you either die or you find guidance and acheive stream entry.

The messed up thing is that you can gain insight through things other than meditation practice. So there are tons of cases out there where a person's life is effected by this mental phenomena and they are completely unaware of it.

Yup pretty accurate in my experience. At first it was a light floaty feeling of being at peace with the universe. But then you still got tons of baggage that you need to deal with, then you get thrown back into the **** and get sucked into it. It seems like a never ending cycle, you clear one thing and 3 more emerge, it's incessant. At this point I'm taking a break from all that shyt cause it just left me frustrated and annoyed. All those years of suffering for what? I'm becoming more miserable. For now I'm focusing on getting my life back on track, hanging with people I like, having sex, NORMAL chit. I've also learned having an ego isn't a bad thing like most spiritual gurus will tell you. It's necessary, it helps us structure our world so we can actually function. Otherwise we'll just get lost in the endless abyss of the unknown. I could go on and on about this topic, but I've shared most of the essential things I've learned. Meditation isn't all that it's cracked up to be

[Bcl2]

OP, would you consider yourself a happy, content person?

[katya422]

Damn brah I'm sorry you went through that and am glad that you eventually were able to find come stability.

Some charts of what to expect in the Theravadan Path of Insight:









So generally people experience very pleasurable and beneficial effects and then get dumped into the Dark Night and need more sleep, have less focus, have a higher chance of mental illness, etc. This group believes that once you pass through the Arising and Passing Away that for the rest of your life you cycle through the negative stages and the A&P until you either die or you find guidance and acheive stream entry.

The messed up thing is that you can gain insight through things other than meditation practice. So there are tons of cases out there where a person's life is effected by this mental phenomena and they are completely unaware of it.

That second part is interesting. Wonder if that may relate to cyclical depression.

Can't say I have done more than dabble at meditation. Spent more time on mindfulness and yoga. Nothing negative to report there.

I have learned that I tend to embody emotions. Mindfulness and yoga help me to check into my body and tune out my chattering brain.

[triception]

Yup pretty accurate in my experience. At first it was a light floaty feeling of being at peace with the universe. But then you still got tons of baggage that you need to deal with, then you get thrown back into the **** and get sucked into it. It seems like a never ending cycle, you clear one thing and 3 more emerge, it's incessant. At this point I'm taking a break from all that shyt cause it just left me frustrated and annoyed. All those years of suffering for what? I'm becoming more miserable. For now I'm focusing on getting my life back on track, hanging with people I like, having sex, NORMAL chit. I've also learned having an ego isn't a bad thing like most spiritual gurus will tell you. It's necessary, it helps us structure our world so we can actually function. Otherwise we'll just get lost in the endless abyss of the unknown. I could go on and on about this topic, but I've shared most of the essential things I've learned. Meditation isn't all that it's cracked up to be

Yes, common advice if these stages become too difficult to handle are to back off on meditation, participate in various "grounding" type activities, eat large/heavy/hearty meals, and much self-care (watch funny movies, spend time with friends and loved ones).

It sounds like you have written off meditation, but just wondering have you ever considered (if you're financially able) going off on an intensive retreat? Sometimes when people can devote time to heavy practice they are able to work through the tough stuff in a safe and contained environment.

Intro of MCTB:

In that same vein, I should further mention that the path I have followed has been dangerous, destabilizing more often than calm, excruciating more often than pleasant, harder to integrate than most other dharma paths I have heard of, and in general quite a rough ride. It has also been profound, amazing, and more glorious than most other paths I have heard tell of. Surfing the ragged edges of reality has been easier for me than slowing the thing down. In my explorations, accidents and adventures, I have learned a lot about not only how to make very fast progress in meditation but also a lot about how to do so without completely wiping out. I hope that I can pass on some of the knowledge of both in this book. This should be seen as another warning. This book and the path presented in it are not for the damaged and unstable spiritual seeker. You have to have your psychological trip fairly together to be able to handle the intense techniques, side effects and results I am about to discuss.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dis...essage/2812081

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/web...20Dark%20Night

[arod204]

Prayer > meditation

The answer is not within you. It’s within God.

The whole idea is that by having less of a self and dissolving the ego you become one with everything and closest to the world and the universe (god).

I've been practicing on and off and I find that when you truly reach a good level at it, it is the complete opposite of anxiety.

Anxiety is the overwhelming generation of thought and idea, an endless torrent of babble. In meditation you quiet the mind until you are producing thoughts at a trickle. Maybe every 10 or 15 seconds a thought will emerge and you'll let it drift away.

All of those things in the OP happen whether or not you meditate. They're simply human behavior and occur in people regardless.

[Offset645]

Yes, common advice if these stages become too difficult to handle are to back off on meditation, participate in various "grounding" type activities, eat large/heavy/hearty meals, and much self-care (watch funny movies, spend time with friends and loved ones).

It sounds like you have written off meditation, but just wondering have you ever considered (if you're financially able) going off on an intensive retreat? Sometimes when people can devote time to heavy practice they are able to work through the tough stuff in a safe and contained environment.

I might return to it eventually but for now I have no interest. Trying to juggle living a productive life and going through meditative cycles is exhausting and I can't do it anymore. For all I know this chit could go on till I die, I don't want to look back on my life with regret. If I died today I'd be very unsatisfied. I may do the retreat thing if I ever regained interest, but it's not on my radar at this point. I don't think meditation is inherently a bad thing, but people should be wary of it. It can be life changing and not in a good way

[20Mavs11]

1. Youtube only allows what they want you to see. They don't care about you. They care about pushing agendas.

2. The way the world is moving, they DON'T want you to meditate. This is why people can't even stay off their cell phones while traveling 75 mph on a phucking high way. They're addicted to constant brain stimulation.

3. TV is designed to be over stimulating. With constant commercials and or apps like netflix that give you hours of useless, but brain stimulation.

If you do the opposite of what they're pushing it will lead you to meditation. I've heard religious quacks say it's the devils work to meditate. This false propaganda is just giving them ammunition to say "I TOLD YOU SO!!!" While they shove popeye's sandwiches down their fat throats.

[BetaAsPhuck]

To be honest the whole thing seems like a Christian extremist who is trying to take a dump on meditation .

Have you looked at some of the research (you can google study titles featured in the video), before dismissing it?

[BetaAsPhuck]

Did not read a single word but mediation for me causes derealization and depersonalization (arguably the goal actually).

I tried it for a while during a period of emotional instability and crisis because people always recommend it for relaxation.

But it actually worsened my symptoms and made me disconnect and not in a good way. So I stopped doing it after a while.

That's exactly what the video and thread is about.

[BetaAsPhuck]

OP, would you consider yourself a happy, content person?

Not content... I don't have a fulfilling social life, I have severe ADHD (I hopefully will get meds), I'm functionally broke.

I'm the happiest that I've ever been though, even though I'm still working through accumulated trauma.

Why do you ask?

[BetaAsPhuck]

All of those things in the OP happen whether or not you meditate. They're simply human behavior and occur in people regardless.

Dude... The following is not indicative of a healthy mind...

(From the OP)

"suicidal thoughts, cycles of depression, promiscuity, literally acting like an animal, and the reemergence of addictions, are very common if you practice meditation for more than a year... And it will continue to happen after periodically."

Some reported side effects; Anxiety, panic attacks, depression, depersonalization/derealization, hallucination, involuntary movements, and psychosis requiring hospitalization.

[triception]

1. Youtube only allows what they want you to see. They don't care about you. They care about pushing agendas.

2. The way the world is moving, they DON'T want you to meditate. This is why people can't even stay off their cell phones while traveling 75 mph on a phucking high way. They're addicted to constant brain stimulation.

3. TV is designed to be over stimulating. With constant commercials and or apps like netflix that give you hours of useless, but brain stimulation.

If you do the opposite of what they're pushing it will lead you to meditation. I've heard religious quacks say it's the devils work to meditate. This false propaganda is just giving them ammunition to say "I TOLD YOU SO!!!" While they shove popeye's sandwiches down their fat throats.

Yeah man I cannot stand driving these days when 80% of the time there's a significant delay at a red light because someone is staring at their phone instead of paying attention to their surroundings.

Mindfulness may be more important now than ever since we're constantly bombarded by technologies that hijack our attention.

[BetaAsPhuck]

If you do the opposite of what they're pushing it will lead you to meditation. I've heard religious quacks say it's the devils work to meditate. This false propaganda is just giving them ammunition to say "I TOLD YOU SO!!!"

Mindfulness meditation and Yoga is promoted by the mainstream media, celebrities, industrialists and silicon valley.

It's a billion dollar industry.

I'm genuinely surprised that you seem to think that mindfulness meditation is against the mainstream.

Mindfulness meditation is even being promoted in the US military...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/b...special-forces

Meditation arguably just keeps the system running... The people pursuing mindfulness don't seem to have insights to radically change the system, or donate large portions of their wealth to help the poor and downtrodden... They talk about mindfulness because it can help them (and workers) be more productive, due to feeling less stressed (for the people that it works for).

[lazerhead]

so much ignorance in this thread...

the purpose of meditation is not to relax, so we're already starting off with a false premise. To describe the true purpose of meditation, it's helpful to use the analogy of a movie theater. When you're super absorbed in the story and what's happening on the screen, you can lose your sense of being seated in a dark room watching light bouncing off a wall. You are fully absorbed in the illusion. This is how we engage with our thoughts most of the time. We have angry thoughts and become angry, sad thoughts cause us to be sad...

But there's a way of detaching from these thoughts and seeing them as mere objects in consciousness--- the same way we can detach from the movie and realize we're just sitting there looking at a play of light on the wall. There is a calmness in the mind that arises when we view our thoughts and sensations in this way, but that feeling of calm is merely a symptom of the practice, it is not the goal.

Ironically, the goal of mediation is to have no goal. Just as there's no goal when you listen to music, or dance. The dancing is the whole point. This is very difficult for the Westerners to wrap their heads around, and they muddy the water with their analytics and their scientific theories, as if it's something that can understood rationally.

Meditation is extremely subtle, you have concentrate perfectly on whatever it is that is happening, and not cloud it with any forms of craving or aversion. If your back hurts, don't wish for the pain to go away. If you're feeling peaceful, don't wish for the feeling to persist. There are no positive or negative sensations, it's just sensation. In this way you are then rid of all desire, including the desire to not desire. Going into a meditation practice with the intent of gaining something is to miss the point entirely.

[lazerhead]

glad i wasted all that time trying to redpill u *******s.

brb attaining enlightenment

[ManipulateTruth]

Well I have a huge brew of a special cactus going right now.


Hopefully the ego isn’t too important.
Hahaha