Would oly shoes benefit me for squats? (+ critique deadlift)

[altrice]

My friend said he thinks that my lower back takes over when I squat heavy, and mentioned it's because I have long femurs and a short torso. He made me squat with lighter weights and 2.5 lbs under my heels thinking my form would be better with my leverages. Note I was already gassed before these vids.





Personally, I don't think my depth looked any different with them.. but I did feel a bit of a burn on my quads that I don't usually get from squats. I'm thinking of investing in a pair of oly shoes, but I'm worried that they might cause knee pain in the long run. Did it help some of you in terms of more tension in the muscles or increasing your depth?

Also working on my dead form before I go heavy:



How does it look?

[rdferguson]

Squats: Since your torso acts as a plank/lever in the squat and doesn't dynamically do anything to make the bar move through space, it's not really possible for your back to take over at any point unless you actually round your back and thus have to extend it again. I couldn't see much difference between your squats with or without the plates under your heels. Right now, whether you should get Oly shoes or stick with flat shoes depends on why you're squatting. A traditional Olympic style squat with a high bar position, heeled shoes and an upright torso helps to replicate the motor patterns used in the snatch and the clean+jerk. From a bodybuilding POV, that style of squat is also quad-dominant, uses a fair amount of glute drive, and has relatively little hamstring involvement. A traditional powerlifting style squat with a low bar position, flat shoes and sitting back as much as possible while maintaining form helps to get more weight up (for most people), while taking the focus off the quadriceps and increasing hamstring involvement. It looks like you're squatting high bar, so I'd be inclined to go with the Oly shoes to get the most out of the high bar position. A side-note on form: it looks like you're setting up with your right foot forward. Try and get your feet split evenly, as uneven foot placement will promote rotation of the trunk throughout the squat, which is asking for some very fun injuries.

Deadlifts: These are closer to SLDLs than conventional deadlifts. Nothing wrong with doing SLDLs, but be clear on what you're aiming to do. If you're after a conventional deadlift, you'll want to bend more at the knees at the bottom, getting your butt a bit lower so that you can use both your quads and your posterior chain to get the bar moving, rather than having it all in the posterior. If you're aiming for SLDLs, that might actually be a good thing, especially if you continue with high bar and get squat shoes, as SLDLs do focus more on the hamstrings (which aren't used much in the high bar squat). Whether you're going for conventional or stiff-legged deadlifts, you're lower back is rounded at the bottom and you're not taking the slack out of the bar, so you need to set up better. It's okay for the upper back to round in a deadlift (in fact, past about 70% of my max, I won't get the bar all the way up without rounding my upper back, due to leverage factors), but you really want your lower back to be in normal, rigid extension (not hyperextension), supported by the core.

[altrice]

Squats: Since your torso acts as a plank/lever in the squat and doesn't dynamically do anything to make the bar move through space, it's not really possible for your back to take over at any point unless you actually round your back and thus have to extend it again. I couldn't see much difference between your squats with or without the plates under your heels. Right now, whether you should get Oly shoes or stick with flat shoes depends on why you're squatting. A traditional Olympic style squat with a high bar position, heeled shoes and an upright torso helps to replicate the motor patterns used in the snatch and the clean+jerk. From a bodybuilding POV, that style of squat is also quad-dominant, uses a fair amount of glute drive, and has relatively little hamstring involvement. A traditional powerlifting style squat with a low bar position, flat shoes and sitting back as much as possible while maintaining form helps to get more weight up (for most people), while taking the focus off the quadriceps and increasing hamstring involvement. It looks like you're squatting high bar, so I'd be inclined to go with the Oly shoes to get the most out of the high bar position. A side-note on form: it looks like you're setting up with your right foot forward. Try and get your feet split evenly, as uneven foot placement will promote rotation of the trunk throughout the squat, which is asking for some very fun injuries.

Deadlifts: These are closer to SLDLs than conventional deadlifts. Nothing wrong with doing SLDLs, but be clear on what you're aiming to do. If you're after a conventional deadlift, you'll want to bend more at the knees at the bottom, getting your butt a bit lower so that you can use both your quads and your posterior chain to get the bar moving, rather than having it all in the posterior. If you're aiming for SLDLs, that might actually be a good thing, especially if you continue with high bar and get squat shoes, as SLDLs do focus more on the hamstrings (which aren't used much in the high bar squat). Whether you're going for conventional or stiff-legged deadlifts, you're lower back is rounded at the bottom and you're not taking the slack out of the bar, so you need to set up better. It's okay for the upper back to round in a deadlift (in fact, past about 70% of my max, I won't get the bar all the way up without rounding my upper back, due to leverage factors), but you really want your lower back to be in normal, rigid extension (not hyperextension), supported by the core.

I will definitely give consider my foot positioning. And I generally stick with high bar because I find it hard to keep myself up-right with low bar, even though I know it's essentially done with a more forward lean. I'll probably end up getting the oly shoes because I didn't really see my knees shifting forward with the plates under the heels any more than they were without them.

I actually was going for conventional ones haha.. I have been doing RDLs for months now and I guess I forgot how to get the proper stance with these.

[rdferguson]

It's actually okay for your knees to come further forwards with squat shoes: in fact, that's what's supposed to happen. The heel elevation enables your knees to move further forwards before your calf flexibility inhibits things. Having your knees further forwards necessarily means that at parallel (which will be a lower hip position than with your knees further back, since bringing your knees forward reduces the height of your knees off the ground) your hips will be further forwards (unless your femurs are made of something that doesn't have a fixed length). This is what allows -- ney, causes -- a more upright back position: heels are elevated --> knees are forwards --> hips are forwards --> trunk doesn't have to lean as far to keep the bar over the feet.

[altrice]

It's actually okay for your knees to come further forwards with squat shoes: in fact, that's what's supposed to happen. The heel elevation enables your knees to move further forwards before your calf flexibility inhibits things. Having your knees further forwards necessarily means that at parallel (which will be a lower hip position than with your knees further back, since bringing your knees forward reduces the height of your knees off the ground) your hips will be further forwards (unless your femurs are made of something that doesn't have a fixed length). This is what allows -- ney, causes -- a more upright back position: heels are elevated --> knees are forwards --> hips are forwards --> trunk doesn't have to lean as far to keep the bar over the feet.

I like the sound of the last part a lot, because I do have that issue when the weights get heavy.. even though I'm not taking on nearly as much as weight as I'd like to.

I did another set with a little more weight that day as well.



I feel as if I should be going lower. I do some mobility work before a leg session, and stretch right after. Maybe I should widen my stance a little more?

[rdferguson]

Your feet look wide enough apart to me, but it couldn't hurt to play around with your stance. I've found with stance and depth, too close = body goes on top of legs rather than between them, preventing safe depth; too wide = adductor tightness kicks in and limits ROM. I suspect that where your are right now, you could probably come closer or go wider by a couple inches and depth would be relatively unchanged.

What mobility work are you doing?

[atgorgohome]

As rdferguson said, your squats look fine but your DLs look more like SLDLs.
With the lighter weight, it doesn't matter, but if you want to lift heavy on a conventional DL, for the initial pull you want to 'sit' down into it. By this mean, well, try and 'sit' down, but down, shoulder blades squeezed, chest out, face up and drive through your legs. You should feel it in your lower back and legs. Keep your arms straight. Try supinated grip if you're having trouble with the bar rolling around with overhand. Or if you want, supinated hook grip, though this can cause discomfort.

[altrice]

Your feet look wide enough apart to me, but it couldn't hurt to play around with your stance. I've found with stance and depth, too close = body goes on top of legs rather than between them, preventing safe depth; too wide = adductor tightness kicks in and limits ROM. I suspect that where your are right now, you could probably come closer or go wider by a couple inches and depth would be relatively unchanged.

What mobility work are you doing?

You're right. My adductors are actually pretty sore today, which I don't want. I'll stick to my usual stance, which is a little closer than the ones in the vids.

I mainly do leg swings, squat-to-stands, and ankle rotations.

As rdferguson said, your squats look fine but your DLs look more like SLDLs.
With the lighter weight, it doesn't matter, but if you want to lift heavy on a conventional DL, for the initial pull you want to 'sit' down into it. By this mean, well, try and 'sit' down, but down, shoulder blades squeezed, chest out, face up and drive through your legs. You should feel it in your lower back and legs. Keep your arms straight. Try supinated grip if you're having trouble with the bar rolling around with overhand. Or if you want, supinated hook grip, though this can cause discomfort.

I used to do actual DLs properly but that was a year back. Now it's no wonder because I was surprised 135 still felt moderately heavy for me.. I was doing them wrong! lol. That was my first time actually doing a SLDL, and even though it wasn't my intention, I have to say I like it a lot more than RDLs.

I've tried a pronated hook grip, and it didn't feel right for me. I'll consider a supinated one, but won't that bring biceps into play?

[Trigirl11]

Question- should her feet be straight ahead? The feet are pointed out which is why the adductors are sore. You can see from my sig I'm NASM trainned so I noticed these things, but I'm not a bodybuilder, so I'm courious.

[altrice]

Question- should her feet be straight ahead? The feet are pointed out which is why the adductors are sore. You can see from my sig I'm NASM trainned so I noticed these things, but I'm not a bodybuilder, so I'm courious.

I think mine should be be pointed out to the sides a bit because that's how I can keep my knees tracking over them. I've tried toes pointed forwards and it was harder to hit parallel + gave me slight knee stress. I think I need to flare my feet a bit because that's how my biomechanics are. Some adductor stress is caused by foot position, but I'm assuming you can prevent it from being amplified if you don't widen your stance too much.

Anyways I did 105 today, and unfortunately it's still a bit heavy. I hate how this is my worst lift.



The good thing is I still had the tension in the quads without the heel lifts, so I think I'll stick with Converses for now and just work on my depth.

[rdferguson]

^ I think you're rotating as you come down. It looks like your right hand side is caving as you come near the bottom. I used to do the same thing, so if my eyes are seeing this correctly, I'm going to recommend that you actively pull backwards with your right-hand side while squeezing your shoulders together while you squat (that's what got me fixed, at least).

Question- should her feet be straight ahead? The feet are pointed out which is why the adductors are sore. You can see from my sig I'm NASM trainned so I noticed these things, but I'm not a bodybuilder, so I'm courious.

Pointing your toes out doesn't make your adductors sore -- how far apart your knees get at the bottom does. You can actually do sumo squats with your feet parallel, and that'll still create lots of adductor work (potentially more glute and adductor work, actually, because in that instance you need to be a bit more active in driving your knees out, whereas when your knees and toes are pointing the same direction, you can be a bit more passive about it).

[altrice]

^ I think you're rotating as you come down. It looks like your right hand side is caving as you come near the bottom. I used to do the same thing, so if my eyes are seeing this correctly, I'm going to recommend that you actively pull backwards with your right-hand side while squeezing your shoulders together while you squat (that's what got me fixed, at least).

Gotcha. I can see that happening too in the middle of this set. Is it just a matter of losing upper back tightness on that side?

[schnauzers]

Thanks for posting your question, OP. I really enjoy threads like this where people post vids and others help with critique...very helpful

[rdferguson]

Gotcha. I can see that happening too in the middle of this set. Is it just a matter of losing upper back tightness on that side?

Hard to say for sure, but that'd be my first guess, based purely on my history with rotation while squatting (and based on my history, and the debilitating neural pain caused by it, I highly seeing if focusing on tightness at that spot helps ASAP).

[altrice]

Hard to say for sure, but that'd be my first guess, based purely on my history with rotation while squatting (and based on my history, and the debilitating neural pain caused by it, I highly seeing if focusing on tightness at that spot helps ASAP).

I think I know the problem. One side of my hip likes to rise up before the other one. At first I thought it was because one leg could naturally handle more weight than the other, but I have this problem even with regular ones without the bar. I'm not sure if this could be neural or a leg length discrepancy.

Thanks for posting your question, OP. I really enjoy threads like this where people post vids and others help with critique...very helpful

Thanks, the replies have been very helpful.