I always believed that you should be able to row as much, if not more than you can bench. Am I correct in thinking this?
I've finally trained my pendlay row to the point of being pretty close to my bench.
Is anybody here rowing more than they bench?
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Thread: Bench vs Row?
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11-30-2011, 06:21 PM #1
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11-30-2011, 06:28 PM #2
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11-30-2011, 06:56 PM #3
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11-30-2011, 06:58 PM #4
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11-30-2011, 07:30 PM #5
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11-30-2011, 07:45 PM #6
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11-30-2011, 07:48 PM #7
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11-30-2011, 08:00 PM #8
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My bench and Pendlay row were almost identical when I started out, but my row pretty much quit progressing after 185x5. Any more and I'm using too much lower back or legs. I guess your bench and row could be similar depending on which row you do and how strictly you perform it.
Come to think of it, they're probably almost the same right now, but that's because I haven't trained my raw bench in a while.Meet: 440/248/485 = 1173@144 sp
My powerlifting log - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=135067661&page=39
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11-30-2011, 08:22 PM #9
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11-30-2011, 08:54 PM #10
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11-30-2011, 09:00 PM #11
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Nobody really trains the row as a lift. They train rows as a supplemental exercise so it is kind of hard to say. Rows are also extremely hard to judge and perform with consistency at varying intensities.
I sure as hell can chin and pullup a hell of a lot more weight than I can press over head. As a matter of fact, I can chin much more than I bench. I can also pullup much more than I bench.www.PowerliftingToWin.com
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11-30-2011, 09:07 PM #12
On top of what Izzy said, most people on here use a powerlifting style bench. So a much shorter ROM in bench than row. Also, we use leg drive.
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11-30-2011, 09:17 PM #13
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11-30-2011, 09:39 PM #14
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On Madcow's and SS you train the row as a lift unless you have the balls to try to learn proper clean technique. But I agree about rows being hard to judge. For bench it's pretty clear - you bring the bar down to and touch your chest, and push it back up with your arms locked. For rows you can have your back parallel to the floor with no leg drive and start each rep from a dead stop as in a Pendlay row, have your back at an angle and hold the bar the entire time in a bentover row, you have be almost upright and do a Yates row, and it's hard to say if you completed the rep since some might say you have to touch your chest or belly and others might say you don't have to.
I think the chinup/ohp case is different. Apparently strict pressing ones own bodyweight is an accomplishment, and I think most people can do a pullup or at least a chin up their first time trying. I don't even think comparing push presses and chin ups would work, at least if my case is normal. Last time I did push presses I think I did 3 sets of 155x5 and I've done pullups with 145bw+45/50 (so about 200) for 5 reps, so they're not the same by any means.
It's probably different for bigger guys in both examples because I couldn't imagine a 500-600 pound bencher (or anyone for that matter) rowing as much. And I've seen some pretty big, as in 2x+ body weight, strict / push presses, but I almost never see a double body weight pullup, except for in the misc pullup contest.Meet: 440/248/485 = 1173@144 sp
My powerlifting log - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=135067661&page=39
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11-30-2011, 10:07 PM #15
As far as Pendlay rows go, not a chance.
If you're doing some bodybuilding standard bent over row, sure. But people tend to perform this with a large amount of momentum and hardly more than 6-8 inches of ROM anyway.
If you truly could perform a row equal to your bench with good form, I imagine you'd have an exaggerated pectoral or tricep weakness relative to your lats and upper back.Best gym lifts: S 430 / B 385 / D 480 both C&S
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11-30-2011, 11:42 PM #16
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Rows are not in the true SS. And even the rows that are described in the SS book are not done for maximal weights. Rip goes out of his way to say that low rep rows kind of suck because of technique limitations. Even with Madcows, the emphasis is really on form. He spent an entire section of his guide describing proper, strict row form. It wasn't meant to be done for max weights like bench. Rows haven't worked as a powerlift because of the difficulty in coming up with judging criteria.
It is definitely true that we haven't seen any 500lbs chinners (at least I haven't). Then again, how many people actually try to do this? Powerlifters are too busy programming and training for lifts that actually matter. Who is to say that if random miscers are capable of getting to 400lbs chinups that a highly motivated genetic freak on drugs wouldn't be able to hit 500, 600lbs, hell, 700lbs? I don't think that it is too much of a leap. Didn't KK do like 50 kipping pullups at 300lbs? That sure seems like it would translate to right around his raw benching numbers. It wouldn't taken lifters long to figure out ways to shorten the range of motion and create chinup suits if it became a contested lift. And chinups would actually be really easy to judge.
It is definitely an interesting thought. I know some "gurus" recommend that one always be able to chin more than they bench just in terms of shoulder girdle health considerations.
What would be possible if guys like Ed Coan were actually programming for a weighted chin-up? I really don't know, but I know it would be a lot more than the dudes on the misc.
As an aside, my best bench is 205x5 and I had nothing in the tank, but my best chin is 235x5 and I might've had one or two more left in me (my stats are old, I've been dieting and am now ~180 on the way to 148).Last edited by IzzyT; 11-30-2011 at 11:49 PM.
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12-01-2011, 06:45 AM #17
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12-01-2011, 07:36 AM #18
thats what I was thinking. Does anyone do sheiko for their rows?
That being said, you can keep them in proportion to a degree. I will say this...I think rows are harder lol.
I have pause benched 315 in competition...so obviously i was strict. I have "used" 315 (I think) on rows but obviously that wasnt strict. I have shrugged up to 405 with varying degrees of strictness. I have probably 1 arm rowed 140-160ish?
So thru deads/rows/shrugs you can keep your back strength in proportion.
Out of proportion would be the guys I have seen who can bench 315 and then they go over and do 3x10 shrugs with 50-60lb dbells. And they do 1 arm db rows with 80lbs. Huh? Those are the guys who get the "shoulders pulled forward" look"Humility comes before honor"
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12-01-2011, 08:14 AM #19
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12-01-2011, 08:34 AM #20
Thanks for saying that.
The Yates Row is a much more suitable comparison. With the Bench, people use every muscle in the body. As Izzy said, it's treated as a lift, not a chest exercise. Pendlay Rows are treated as a back/lat exercise.
OP, you might be confusing your idea with the concept that you should be doing at least as many reps of rows (pullups/rows/face pulls etc) as you do pushing reps (bench/military etc). Some people even shoot for 2:1.
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12-01-2011, 08:42 AM #21
Sigh... this actually reminds me of my good buddy. Benches 310 at 160-170 body weight but does DB Rows with no more than 70 pound DBs. When I worked out with him over the summer, I'd take the DB away from him and go get around a 120. He'd still do it easily, as expected... but god damn it every time after that he'd still go as light as ever.
Best gym lifts: S 430 / B 385 / D 480 both C&S
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12-01-2011, 09:57 AM #22
Yeah, this is pretty much where I'm coming from.
I always thought the intensity and volume had to be the same for both pushing and pulling, otherwise you end up with imbalances in strength and posture. This is from years of doing 5x5 programs with the pendlay row.
Thanks for the clarifications folks!"I lift things up and put them down"
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12-01-2011, 12:08 PM #23
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12-01-2011, 12:15 PM #24
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12-01-2011, 12:27 PM #25
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I row 180 and bench 160, but then again for my entire lifting career, I have always struggled on bench, it is by far my worst lift, and back has always been a strength, I was deadlifting 315 while benching 135 for the longest time, it was awful.
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12-02-2011, 07:13 AM #26
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12-02-2011, 08:33 AM #27
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12-02-2011, 06:01 PM #28
i'm a firm believer in having your row strength being close to your bench as well. i do a ton of bent over rows and pendlay rows. lat strength during a bench is vasty underdeveloped in many benchers. to be able to pause heavy weight, strong lats are a must. i contract my lats so hard as i row the weight down that the weight actually feels almost weightless at chest level. i attribute a lot of this to my lat strength from very heavy rows.
my bent over rows for reps is about 425 and my bench is around 520-530 right now.
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12-02-2011, 06:36 PM #29
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12-02-2011, 06:51 PM #30
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