List logical reasons as to why a "loving" god would not reveal himself to everyone.

[JAGERBOY]

Can any theists give any logical reasons as to why their version of god would not reveal him self to everyone? And I don't want some silly response about how he has, we just have to "choose" to believe it. Im talking, no doubt about it, adequate revelation to everyone in the world. None of this tip toeing, ambiguous non-sense about how you can see god in a beautiful sunset.

If your god is all powerful, and has the ability to reveal himself to everyone to the point where there is no doubt, what logical reason can you give as to why he would not?

[Mtguy8787]

cuz he has a plan to test teh faith

[Mr Beer]

Because if you go to all the trouble of magicking up a giant eternal torture chamber, you need to make sure you have plenty of people suffering in it.

[Harbinger]

Can any theists give any logical reasons as to why their version of god would not reveal him self to everyone? And I don't want some silly response about how he has, we just have to "choose" to believe it. Im talking, no doubt about it, adequate revelation to everyone in the world. None of this tip toeing, ambiguous non-sense about how you can see god in a beautiful sunset.

If your god is all powerful, and has the ability to reveal himself to everyone to the point where there is no doubt, what logical reason can you give as to why he would not?

Logic and Religion = FAIL

[reyalp]

You've already made up your mind, why don't you just give away the ending for us.

[ONtop888]

If your god is all powerful, and has the ability to reveal himself to everyone to the point where there is no doubt, what logical reason can you give as to why he would not?

We would have no free will in the matter, no ability to make a choice fashioned in faith, if He used His omnipotence to force us into believing in Him. We are not worthy of Him revealing Himself to us in a magnificient fashion. He already sent His Son to suffer and die for us, the spreading of His message is the responsibility of all who hear it, to proclaim it and spread the Gospel to others.

God does reveal Himself to everyone at multiple times in everyones lives. Can you honestly say that there has never been anything in your life or your intellect that has made you question His existence?

[JAGERBOY]

We would have no free will in the matter, no ability to make a choice fashioned in faith, if He used His omnipotence to force us into believing in Him. We are not worthy of Him revealing Himself to us in a magnificient fashion. He already sent His Son to suffer and die for us, the spreading of His message is the responsibility of all who hear it, to proclaim it and spread the Gospel to others.

We would still have "free will". Just because I know a god exists, does not mean that I will necessarily worship, love, or follow this god. Is Gods main goal for people to love him or to simply have faith he exists?

God does reveal Himself to everyone at multiple times in everyones lives. Can you honestly say that there has never been anything in your life or your intellect that has made you question His existence?

You aren't playing by the rules, I clearly already covered this type of response in the OP.

[reyalp]

We would still have "free will". Just because I know a god exists, does not mean that I will necessarily worship, love, or follow this god. Is Gods main goal for people to love him or to simply have faith he exists?



You aren't playing by the rules, I clearly already covered this type of response in the OP.

You're begging the question, why not go ahead and give us the answer?

[plus44racer182]

We would have no free will in the matter, no ability to make a choice fashioned in faith, if He used His omnipotence to force us into believing in Him. We are not worthy of Him revealing Himself to us in a magnificient fashion. He already sent His Son to suffer and die for us, the spreading of His message is the responsibility of all who hear it, to proclaim it and spread the Gospel to others.

God does reveal Himself to everyone at multiple times in everyones lives. Can you honestly say that there has never been anything in your life or your intellect that has made you question His existence?

i think this answeres it the best you can brah just sayin....

[JAGERBOY]

You're begging the question, why not go ahead and give us the answer?

Give you what answer? I don't have an answer because as Ive already made pretty clear, I don't find the idea logical. Im asking you, who I presume is a theist, to give the answer.

[TranceNRG]

We would still have "free will". Just because I know a god exists, does not mean that I will necessarily worship, love, or follow this god. Is Gods main goal for people to love him or to simply have faith he exists?

So, you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that...
even if you know God exists, and you know God controls all, and you know afterlife exists, and you know God judges people according to His laws, and you know God punishes those who do not follow His commands, and you know God will help with every aspect of one's life if one follows Him, some people would still choose to not believe in Him and not follow Him?

What reason (logic) would these people have to choose to not follow God, knowing very well that He exists and everything is under His control?


Just curious...

[JAGERBOY]

So, you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that...
even if you know God exists, and you know God controls all, and you know afterlife exists, and you know God judges people according to His laws, and you know God punishes those who do not follow His commands, and you know God will help with every aspect of one's life if one follows Him, some people would still choose to not believe in Him and not follow Him?

What reason (logic) would these people have to choose to not follow God, knowing very well that He exists and everything is under His control?


Just curious...

Yes, this is what Im saying. Simply because I know a god exists, does not mean I will find him worthy of praise or worship. So the free will argument is null and void.

Where are you getting that he would help you with every aspect of life? Do Christians and Muslims not have difficult times or experience tragedies? And if so, and god controlled those, how is it "helpful" to give you comfort through those times, as I assume thats what you will tell me is meant by help, if he is the one that created them in the first place?

[ONtop888]

We would still have "free will". Just because I know a god exists, does not mean that I will necessarily worship, love, or follow this god. Is Gods main goal for people to love him or to simply have faith he exists?

Let's break this down further. What kind've event do you think God should be required to perform for you to believe?

You aren't playing by the rules, I clearly already covered this type of response in the OP.

This is part of the rules. God gave you the ability to conceptualize Him, to contemplate Him and an afterlife, this is the vessel in which He communicates with you. From what you experience through these lens is how God reveals Himself to you. Whether you accept that God helped you during said period of time or said occasion/situation or reject it and write it off as coincidence or chance is the extent to which God will reveal Himself to you. The more you pursue Him, the more He will open Himself up to you.

[JAGERBOY]

Let's break this down further. What kind've event do you think God should be required to perform for you to believe?

Thats irrelevant. He's God, he would know what would be required for everyone to believe. If he's all powerful than he has this ability. Lets avoid specific scenarios for the point of simplicity as I don't think the even itself is really all that important.

This is part of the rules. God gave you the ability to conceptualize Him, to contemplate Him and an afterlife, this is the vessel in which He communicates with you. From what you experience through these lens is how God reveals Himself to you. Whether you accept that God helped you during said period of time or said occasion/situation or reject it and write it off as coincidence or chance is the extent to which God will reveal Himself to you. The more you pursue Him, the more He will open Himself up to you.

See above for a response to this. Again, I already outlined what Im NOT looking for in responses. Please re-read the OP.

[TranceNRG]

Yes, this is what Im saying. Simply because I know a god exists, does not mean I will find him worthy of praise or worship. So the free will argument is null and void.

See...
To me such idea indicates a lack of understanding about who and what God really is. To me, God = Goodness, so once you know God, you would know goodness. In other words, to me, it does not make sense to say even if I know God, that doesn't mean I would praise God. Unless simultaneously and implicitly you're saying that just because I know what is good, I won't do good and accept it as good. This in turn would indicate what...

I often think, the botton line of such statements, is the improper understanding of what and who God is.

Where are you getting that he would help you with every aspect of life?

Islam

Do Christians and Muslims not have difficult times or experience tragedies?

Yes, and in the big picture, those are blessings, and a faithful follower would know and understand them that way.

And if so, and god controlled those, how is it "helpful" to give you comfort through those times, as I assume thats what you will tell me is meant by help, if he is the one that created them in the first place?

You see...
Pain, tradegies and difficulties do not necessary point to what is bad.
Through pain and difficulties, souls mature, faiths strengthen and perception opens.
Of course, you do not agree with such statement, and this is why I say that at the end of it, such question (your initial question) goes back to foundational concepts such as reality, God, human nature, perception and etc.


So, what you may not perceive as helpful, a believer in God may consider it so and cherish it and praise God for it, because He has a different understanding of human nature and how such difficulties help him both in this life and the next.

[JAGERBOY]

See...
To me such idea indicates a lack of understanding about who and what God really is. To me, God = Goodness, so once you know God, you would know goodness. In other words, to me, it does not make sense to say even if I know God, that doesn't mean I would praise God. Unless simultaneously and implicitly you're saying that just because I know what is good, I won't do and accept it as good.

I often think, the botton line of such statements, is the improper understanding of what and who God is.

No. This is YOUR interpretation of what a god is. Its not a misunderstanding at all. You presuppose that if a god exists, then it must be "good". If we continue down that path of logic though, then again, if god is "all good"..then what logical reasons can you give that he would not reveal himself adequately to everyone?

[ONtop888]

Thats irrelevant. He's God, he would know what would be required for everyone to believe. If he's all powerful than he has this ability. Lets avoid specific scenarios for the point of simplicity as I don't think the even itself is really all that important.



See above for a response to this. Again, I already outlined what Im NOT looking for in responses. Please re-read the OP.

Well, you refuse to acknowledge that God does reveal Himself in less explicit forms, so I suppose you are looking for the answer "why doesn't God show us that He exists?". He did, He sent His Son, who performed many miracles. "But why doesn't He show us NOW that He is still here because we don't have faith in what He did 2000 years ago".

First, He does, but you refuse to acknowledge that He is present in this world and in your life and you also refuse to listen to my explanation of this.

Second, we are not worthy of Him explicitly revealing Himself to us, He has already came in the flesh, dwelt with us and suffered for us, His presence made such an impact that it has affected morality and civilization in all regions of the world, 2000 years later. It is up to you to search for Him now, He has already made it possible for you to commune with Him, He has created you in His image, giving you the ability to conceptualize, search, and understand Him, the responsibility rests with you.

[reyalp]

Give you what answer? I don't have an answer because as Ive already made pretty clear, I don't find the idea logical. Im asking you, who I presume is a theist, to give the answer.

You've already presupposed some sort of ultimate answer for this question before ever formulating the questions you posed here, your questions were all designed with implicit assumptions, why not go ahead and share that answer with us?

Or is this just another Unicorn thread?

[JAGERBOY]

Well, you refuse to acknowledge that God does reveal Himself in less explicit forms, so I suppose you are looking for the answer "why doesn't God show us that He exists?". He did, He sent His Son, who performed many miracles. "But why doesn't He show us NOW that He is still here because we don't have faith in what He did 2000 years ago".

First, He does, but you refuse to acknowledge that He is present in this world and in your life and you also refuse to listen to my explanation of this.

Second, we are not worthy of Him explicitly revealing Himself to us, He has already came in the flesh, dwelt with us and suffered for us, His presence made such an impact that it has affected morality and civilization in all regions of the world, 2000 years later. It is up to you to search for Him now, He has already made it possible for you to commune with Him, He has created you in His image, giving you the ability to conceptualize, search, and understand Him, the responsibility rests with you.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, but I think you have a misunderstanding of what Im asking. I don't know how I can explain my question any better.

Take care.

[JAGERBOY]

You've already presupposed some sort of ultimate answer for this question before ever formulating the questions you posed here, your questions were all designed with implicit assumptions, why not go ahead and share that answer with us?

Or is this just another Unicorn thread?

I just told you, I don't have an answer because I find the stance that a god that was all loving and concerned with people loving him does not make sense in light of the fact that he doesn't reveal himself to all adequately. I have no presuppositions which is why Im asking for a logical answer. The only presupposition I have is that no one will be able to give a very good answer. So far that presupposition has remained valid.

[ONtop888]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, but I think you have a misunderstanding of what Im asking. I don't know how I can explain my question any better.

Take care.

I think I know what you're asking, but I'm not sure that there is a sufficient answer for you. Sorry if I didn't provide what you were looking for, but that was a good topic/convo nonetheless, take care.

[TranceNRG]

No. This is YOUR interpretation of what a god is. Its not a misunderstanding at all.

It's a misunderstanding in a sense that we (thiests and athiests) cannot even understand one another propely, because we stand on two very different grounds, with different starting points, different perception and definition of reality and hence different conclusions.

You presuppose that if a god exists, then it must be "good". If we continue down that path of logic though, then again, if god is "all good"..then what logical reasons can you give that he would not reveal himself adequately to everyone?

You see...
Again...
This goes back to another foundational concept. What is good?

To me, God is good, precisely because He doesn't reveal Himself.

Similarly, and perhaps not the best analogy, but to me, a good teacher isn't the one that gives the answers to all the test questions, rather a good teacher is the one that teaches us how to look and find the answers ourselves. Why? because through the process of seeking we learn alot more than just the answers to those specific questions.

On the same note, the process of seeking God, opens one's eyes and heart to the real reality, not a simple version of Naive Realism.


This is why, to me, a God who doesn't reavel Himself is indeed a good God.

[ONtop888]

I just told you, I don't have an answer because I find the stance that a god that was all loving and concerned with people loving him does not make sense in light of the fact that he doesn't reveal himself to all adequately. I have no presuppositions which is why Im asking for a logical answer. The only presupposition I have is that no one will be able to give a very good answer. So far that presupposition has remained valid.

I think your presupposition is that "He doesn't reveal Himself to all adequately". Why do you think this? What would be an example of Him revealing Himself adequately?

[JAGERBOY]

Again...
This goes back to another foundational concept. What is good?

To me, God is good, precisely because He doesn't reveal Himself.

This statement, does not mesh well with your following analogy...

Similarly, and perhaps not the best analogy, but to me, a good teacher isn't the one that gives the answers to all the test questions, rather a good teacher is the one that teaches us how to look and find the answers ourselves. Why? because through the process of seeking we learn alot more than just the answers to those specific questions.

...because we know the teacher exists. How can I know that a god is teaching or guiding me if I do not know he exists?


Ill ask you this question...is god more concerned with people loving him or simply having faith in him?

[JAGERBOY]

I think your presupposition is that "He doesn't reveal Himself to all adequately". Why do you think this? What would be an example of Him revealing Himself adequately?

This isn't a presupposition because I'M AN ATHEIST. If he revealed himself adequately for everyone, there would be no atheists. I don't understand how you don't get that simple point. You either have to not know what an atheist is, or believe that I and all other atheists are lying about our atheism.

[reyalp]

I just told you, I don't have an answer because I find the stance that a god that was all loving and concerned with people loving him does not make sense in light of the fact that he doesn't reveal himself to all adequately. I have no presuppositions which is why Im asking for a logical answer. The only presupposition I have is that no one will be able to give a very good answer. So far that presupposition has remained valid.

You do have presuppositions, anybody who spends 10 seconds looking at your post history will find that obvious.

-One of your presupposition was that nobody would be able to answer the question in a matter that would fit your stringent criteria.
-You asked anyway and have already claimed victory.

So why not just claim victory in your first post and /thread? It's not like you really care about theism to begin with...

[TranceNRG]

This statement, does not mesh well with your following analogy...

...because we know the teacher exists. How can I know that a god is teaching or guiding me if I do not know he exists?

This is a good question, which brings us to our point. First we need to examine God's existence and God's nature, then we could look into His teachings and guidelines.

In other words, First we need to remove each and every idea that we may have about "God" and see is it possible for a "god" to exist? To even do this, we need to take one further step back and ask ourselves, what would I even consider God?

Ill ask you this question...is god more concerned with people loving him or simply having faith in him?

God is neither concerned with people loving Him nor having faith in Him.
It is the people who should be concerned with loving Him and have faith in Him.


You see, even the usage of the word "Him" and referring to God as a He, when someone hasn't determine what and who God is, could be quite misleading.

[JAGERBOY]

You do have presuppositions, anybody who spends 10 seconds looking at your post history will find that obvious.

-One of your presupposition was that nobody would be able to answer the question in a matter that would fit your stringent criteria.
-You asked anyway and have already claimed victory.

So why not just claim victory in your first post and /thread? It's not like you really care about theism to begin with...

Wow. A presupposition does not mean you can not change your stance. I am genuinely interested in a logical explanation for it. Also, if you can not give a logical explanation, then it seems to me that you are admitting that I am correct that it isn't logical, and thus admitting that you do not base your beliefs on logic and reason. This isn't something Id want people thinking about me, but, to each his own.

[ONtop888]

This isn't a presupposition because I'M AN ATHEIST. If he revealed himself adequately for everyone, there would be no atheists. I don't understand how you don't get that simple point. You either have to not know what an atheist is, or believe that I and all other atheists are lying about our atheism.

He reveals Himself adequately for EVERYONE, including you. Whether you choose to acknowledge Him is your own perogative, I've already listed the ways in which He does and most likely has, even in your life, but you have not realized or chosen not to accept that He has played any part in your life.

I'm not typing all of this to point the finger, I'm honestly just trying to explain what I know of God and how He reveals Himself on this earth.

[ONtop888]

Wow. A presupposition does not mean you can not change your stance. I am genuinely interested in a logical explanation for it. Also, if you can not give a logical explanation, then it seems to me that you are admitting that I am correct that it isn't logical, and thus admitting that you do not base your beliefs on logic and reason. This isn't something Id want people thinking about me, but, to each his own.

Could you please tell us what you would define as "adequately revealing Himself". I think that would do alot to further this discussion.