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  1. #91
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post

    Yeah, because those previous apologies were all the product of fertile imaginations and distorted memories
    Context, dude, context, remember? What previous apologies are you referring to? What apologies has he made that he shouldn't have? The Special Olympics? He made a stupid remark about it and he apologized for it. He manned up ad admitted it. For the U.S. bombing of the civilian hospital in Kabul? Damn straight he should have apologized for that. That was an inexcusable display of military incompetence.

    What else? What has he apologized for that you think he shouldn't have?
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
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  2. #92
    Going back to beast mode dbx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Context, dude, context, remember? What previous apologies are you referring to? What apologies has he made that he shouldn't have? The Special Olympics? He made a stupid remark about it and he apologized for it. He manned up ad admitted it. For the U.S. bombing of the civilian hospital in Kabul? Damn straight he should have apologized for that. That was an inexcusable display of military incompetence.

    What else? What has he apologized for that you think he shouldn't have?
    Cut/paste, but it's the easiest .

    A common theme that runs through President Obama's statements is the idea the United States must atone for its past policies, whether it is America's application of the war against Islamist terrorism or its overall foreign policy. At the core of this message is the concept that the U.S. is a flawed nation that must seek redemption by apologizing for its past "sins."

    On several occasions, President Obama has sought to apologize for the actions of his own country when addressing a foreign audience--including seven of the 10 apologies listed below. The President has already apologized for his country to nearly 3 billion people across Europe, the Muslim world, and the Americas.

    The Obama Administration's strategy of unconditional engagement with America's enemies combined with a relentless penchant for apology-making is a dangerous recipe for failure. The overall effect of this approach has been to weaken American power on the world stage rather than strengthen it.

    President Obama's personal approval ratings across much of the world may be sky high, but that has not translated into greater support for U.S.-led initiatives, such as the NATO mission in Afghanistan, which is heavily dependent on American and British troops. The U.S. is increasingly viewed as a soft touch internationally, which has encouraged rogue regimes such as North Korea and Iran to accelerate their nuclear and missile programs.

    As President Obama embarks this week on his second major overseas tour, which will take him to Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Germany, and France, the world does not need yet another apology from the President. Rather, it is looking for strong and principled leadership from the most powerful nation on the face of the earth. American leadership is not a popularity contest, nor should it be an exercise in self-loathing. Rather, it is about taking tough positions that will be met with hostility in many parts of the globe. Above all, it demands the assertive projection of American power, both to secure the homeland and to protect America's allies.

    The following is a list of the 10 most significant apologies by the President of the United States in his first four months of office as they relate to foreign policy and national security issues.

    1. Apology to France and Europe ("America Has Shown Arrogance")

    Speech by President Obama, Rhenus Sports Arena, Strasbourg, France, April 3, 2009.[1]

    So we must be honest with ourselves. In recent years we've allowed our Alliance to drift. I know that there have been honest disagreements over policy, but we also know that there's something more that has crept into our relationship. In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

    2. Apology to the Muslim World ("We Have Not Been Perfect")

    President Obama, interview with Al Arabiya, January 27, 2009.[2]

    My job to the Muslim world is to communicate that the Americans are not your enemy. We sometimes make mistakes. We have not been perfect. But if you look at the track record, as you say, America was not born as a colonial power, and that the same respect and partnership that America had with the Muslim world as recently as 20 or 30 years ago, there's no reason why we can't restore that.

    3. Apology to the Summit of the Americas ("At Times We Sought to Dictate Our Terms")

    President Obama, address to the Summit of the Americas opening ceremony, Hyatt Regency, Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago, April 17, 2009.[3]

    All of us must now renew the common stake that we have in one another. I know that promises of partnership have gone unfulfilled in the past, and that trust has to be earned over time. While the United States has done much to promote peace and prosperity in the hemisphere, we have at times been disengaged, and at times we sought to dictate our terms. But I pledge to you that we seek an equal partnership. There is no senior partner and junior partner in our relations; there is simply engagement based on mutual respect and common interests and shared values. So I'm here to launch a new chapter of engagement that will be sustained throughout my administration.

    The United States will be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been made.

    4. Apology at the G-20 Summit of World Leaders ("Some Restoration of America's Standing in the World")

    News conference by President Obama, ExCel Center, London, United Kingdom, April 2, 2009.[4]

    I would like to think that with my election and the early decisions that we've made, that you're starting to see some restoration of America's standing in the world. And although, as you know, I always mistrust polls, international polls seem to indicate that you're seeing people more hopeful about America's leadership.

    I just think in a world that is as complex as it is, that it is very important for us to be able to forge partnerships as opposed to simply dictating solutions. Just to try to crystallize the example, there's been a lot of comparison here about Bretton Woods. "Oh, well, last time you saw the entire international architecture being remade." Well, if there's just Roosevelt and Churchill sitting in a room with a brandy, that's an easier negotiation. But that's not the world we live in, and it shouldn't be the world that we live in.

    5. Apology for the War on Terror ("We Went off Course")

    President Obama, speech at the National Archives, Washington, D.C., May 21, 2009.[5]

    Unfortunately, faced with an uncertain threat, our government made a series of hasty decisions. I believe that many of these decisions were motivated by a sincere desire to protect the American people. But I also believe that all too often our government made decisions based on fear rather than foresight; that all too often our government trimmed facts and evidence to fit ideological predispositions. Instead of strategically applying our power and our principles, too often we set those principles aside as luxuries that we could no longer afford. And during this season of fear, too many of us--Democrats and Republicans, politicians, journalists, and citizens--fell silent.

    In other words, we went off course. And this is not my assessment alone. It was an assessment that was shared by the American people who nominated candidates for President from both major parties who, despite our many differences, called for a new approach--one that rejected torture and one that recognized the imperative of closing the prison at Guantanamo Bay.


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    Going back to beast mode dbx's Avatar
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    6. Apology for Guantanamo in France ("Sacrificing Your Values")

    Speech by President Obama, Rhenus Sports Arena, Strasbourg, France, April 3, 2009.[6]

    Our two republics were founded in service of these ideals. In America, it is written into our founding documents as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." In France: "Libert"--absolutely--"egalit, fraternit." Our moral authority is derived from the fact that generations of our citizens have fought and bled to uphold these values in our nations and others. And that's why we can never sacrifice them for expedience's sake. That's why I've ordered the closing of the detention center in Guantanamo Bay. That's why I can stand here today and say without equivocation or exception that the United States of America does not and will not torture.

    In dealing with terrorism, we can't lose sight of our values and who we are. That's why I closed Guantanamo. That's why I made very clear that we will not engage in certain interrogation practices. I don't believe that there is a contradiction between our security and our values. And when you start sacrificing your values, when you lose yourself, then over the long term that will make you less secure.

    7. Apology before the Turkish Parliament ("Our Own Darker Periods in Our History")

    Speech by President Obama to the Turkish Parliament, Ankara, Turkey, April 6, 2009.[7]

    Every challenge that we face is more easily met if we tend to our own democratic foundation. This work is never over. That's why, in the United States, we recently ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed. That's why we prohibited--without exception or equivocation--the use of torture. All of us have to change. And sometimes change is hard.

    Another issue that confronts all democracies as they move to the future is how we deal with the past. The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history. Facing the Washington Monument that I spoke of is a memorial of Abraham Lincoln, the man who freed those who were enslaved even after Washington led our Revolution. Our country still struggles with the legacies of slavery and segregation, the past treatment of Native Americans.

    Human endeavor is by its nature imperfect. History is often tragic, but unresolved, it can be a heavy weight. Each country must work through its past. And reckoning with the past can help us seize a better future.

    8. Apology for U.S. Policy toward the Americas ("The United States Has Not Pursued and Sustained Engagement with Our Neighbors")

    Opinion editorial by President Obama: "Choosing a Better Future in the Americas," April 16, 2009.[8]

    Too often, the United States has not pursued and sustained engagement with our neighbors. We have been too easily distracted by other priorities, and have failed to see that our own progress is tied directly to progress throughout the Americas. My Administration is committed to the promise of a new day. We will renew and sustain a broader partnership between the United States and the hemisphere on behalf of our common prosperity and our common security.

    9. Apology for the Mistakes of the CIA ("Potentially We've Made Some Mistakes")

    Remarks by the President to CIA employees, CIA Headquarters, Langley, Virginia, April 20, 2009.[9] The remarks followed the controversial decision to release Office of Legal Counsel memoranda detailing CIA enhanced interrogation techniques used against terrorist suspects.

    So don't be discouraged by what's happened in the last few weeks. Don't be discouraged that we have to acknowledge potentially we've made some mistakes. That's how we learn. But the fact that we are willing to acknowledge them and then move forward, that is precisely why I am proud to be President of the United States, and that's why you should be proud to be members of the CIA.

    10. Apology for Guantanamo in Washington ("A Rallying Cry for Our Enemies")

    President Obama, speech at the National Archives, Washington, D.C., May 21, 2009.[10]

    There is also no question that Guantanamo set back the moral authority that is America's strongest currency in the world. Instead of building a durable framework for the struggle against al Qaeda that drew upon our deeply held values and traditions, our government was defending positions that undermined the rule of law. In fact, part of the rationale for establishing Guantanamo in the first place was the misplaced notion that a prison there would be beyond the law--a proposition that the Supreme Court soundly rejected. Meanwhile, instead of serving as a tool to counter terrorism, Guantanamo became a symbol that helped al Qaeda recruit terrorists to its cause. Indeed, the existence of Guantanamo likely created more terrorists around the world than it ever detained.

    So the record is clear: Rather than keeping us safer, the prison at Guantanamo has weakened American national security. It is a rallying cry for our enemies.

    Nile Gardiner is the Director of, and Morgan Roach is Research Assistant in, the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom at The Heritage Foundation.


    Now, to be fair.....I can tell you that you can easily find opposite opinions that tear apart everything above ^ as being "apologetic". But the arguments, at the very least, acknowledge that you don't have to use the "word" for it to be one..or not. It's simply going to be subject to each of us who read and interpret those words. IMO, he definitely spoke outside of the "normal" confines of a U.S. president in what is said on foreign soil. You'll likely see it as harmless, refreshing, whatever...

    We will simply have to agree to disagree on whether or not his sentences or choice of words were apologetic in nature. No yelling, kicking and screaming here .
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  4. #94
    Registered User Jtbny's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Context, dude, context, remember? What previous apologies are you referring to? What apologies has he made that he shouldn't have? The Special Olympics? He made a stupid remark about it and he apologized for it. He manned up ad admitted it. For the U.S. bombing of the civilian hospital in Kabul? Damn straight he should have apologized for that. That was an inexcusable display of military incompetence.

    What else? What has he apologized for that you think he shouldn't have?
    A lot of the whole Obama apology rhetoric stems from the Romney and his "apology tour" remarks during his campaign; a claim that was disproved as often as it was made but that many on the right still cling to as facts.

    At any rate this http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/obama-quotes/ does a good job of putting some of the so called apologies in its proper context instead of small sound bites.

    Why is it so wrong to acknowledge mistakes we've made in the past? I don't get it.
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  5. #95
    Nihilist Karl_Hungus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dbx View Post
    IMO, he definitely spoke outside of the "normal" confines of a U.S. president in what is said on foreign soil.
    ^^This is what irks me about it. How many other world leaders do you see giving these kinds of speeches? Nothing wrong with acknowledging your mistakes, but actively touting them on foreign soil is not helpful IMO. I believe foreign leaders are more likely to see this as a sign of weakness rather than as a goodwill gesture.
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  6. #96
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    ^^This is what irks me about it. How many other world leaders do you see giving these kinds of speeches? Nothing wrong with acknowledging your mistakes, but actively touting them on foreign soil is not helpful IMO. I believe foreign leaders are more likely to see this as a sign of weakness rather than as a goodwill gesture.
    There is not a single item on that list that is untrue or inappropriate. That the U.S. has made mistakes and behaved badly at times is not a domestic or an international secret. It's a necessity, in fact, that a free and open society(and I hope there's still a little bit of that left in us) would acknowledge and take responsibility for genuine misdeeds or errors. We've done a lot of other bad stuff that we haven't apologized for or acknowledged.

    For another thing, making a short reference as part of a longer speech is not "touting". And it's not a sign of weakness. It's part of being a responsible member of the community of nations. Only despots view such things as weakness, and we're not obliged to kowtow to their opinions. Far worse would be to double down in denial and dishonesty, and pretend that what everybody already knows never happened. That's the real sign of weakness.

    But you're doing exactly what I predicted. You're taking what are legitimate admissions of known shortcomings, and equating it with a fictional apology for what is widely recognized as a necessary wartime act. There are worlds of difference between the two, and yet you can't tell the difference. That's due to that filter I mentioned earlier. You can't see facts that don't conform to your preconceived ideology, unless you can twist them to make them fit.
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  7. #97
    fat fukc Fishman15's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    ^^This is what irks me about it. How many other world leaders do you see giving these kinds of speeches? Nothing wrong with acknowledging your mistakes, but actively touting them on foreign soil is not helpful IMO. I believe foreign leaders are more likely to see this as a sign of weakness rather than as a goodwill gesture.
    Just once I'd like to hear about a foreign leader coming to our soil and apologizing for being *******s. Just once...
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  8. #98
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    Originally Posted by Fishman15 View Post
    Just once I'd like to hear about a foreign leader coming to our soil and apologizing for being *******s. Just once...
    How about 91.00 dollars and a card.
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    I lift dead people. JediRN's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    ^^This is what irks me about it. How many other world leaders do you see giving these kinds of speeches? Nothing wrong with acknowledging your mistakes, but actively touting them on foreign soil is not helpful IMO. I believe foreign leaders are more likely to see this as a sign of weakness rather than as a goodwill gesture.

    We have little trust with the rest the world. Cant blame it all on George W although he did a lot of damage. One important way to rebuild that trust is to start by getting honest. It's a good place to start in any relationship.

    Still don't see any apologies though. There as much truth to Obama's apologies as there is to Obama and Hillary's plans to take all our guns.
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    fat fukc Fishman15's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Brackneyc View Post
    How about 91.00 dollars and a card.
    A bench would be nicer...
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  11. #101
    Going back to beast mode dbx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    There is not a single item on that list that is untrue or inappropriate. That the U.S. has made mistakes and behaved badly at times is not a domestic or an international secret.
    I posted the list, so it would be more appropriate to reply to me, not Karl. And I will keep this as simple as I can; go back and see my closing remarks at the end of what I quoted. Yes, we've made mistakes. Yes, it's good to admit mistakes. And yes, agreed...on much more of what you say. However, what we'll always disagree on, is that our POTUS made a point to speak of such on foreign soil. Again, this is unprecedented for a U.S president to make such remarks...and so many of them.

    I will give you an example: a member here, who is often at odds with a majority of posters here....replied in a thread, copping to some bad times in his life. He quickly deleted it (unfortunate, but smartly imo) because he knew the vultures here would use it against him in future posts.

    Now, he's just a member on a forum. When the POTUS says things that you defend as just being honest? I see those remarks as showing weakness to a world that would love to "tear us apart" as a country. When you're a world leader (of the greatest nation on earth...sorry UK and others ), you don't give anyone fodder to beat you over the head with, despite there being truth in your heartfelt words.

    Again, no venom here. Just saying that we will obviously, not see eye to eye on this. Let it go....
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  12. #102
    Nihilist Karl_Hungus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    But you're doing exactly what I predicted. You're taking what are legitimate admissions of known shortcomings, and equating it with a fictional apology for what is widely recognized as a necessary wartime act. There are worlds of difference between the two, and yet you can't tell the difference. That's due to that filter I mentioned earlier. You can't see facts that don't conform to your preconceived ideology, unless you can twist them to make them fit.
    I guess we are just going to see this differently. You make a habit of attributing functional deficiencies in those with whom you disagree -- I could equally say that your own political ideologies and mental filters prevent you from recognizing an apology when you see it. We could go back and forth ad infinitum about who is incapable of looking at the facts objectively, but ultimately it doesn't get us anywhere.

    Originally Posted by Fishman15 View Post
    Just once I'd like to hear about a foreign leader coming to our soil and apologizing for being *******s. Just once...
    Will never happen.

    Originally Posted by JediRN View Post
    We have little trust with the rest the world. Cant blame it all on George W although he did a lot of damage. One important way to rebuild that trust is to start by getting honest. It's a good place to start in any relationship.
    I get what you are saying ... I just don't think it has the effect that you think it does.

    Originally Posted by dbx View Post
    I posted the list, so it would be more appropriate to reply to me, not Karl. And I will keep this as simple as I can; go back and see my closing remarks at the end of what I quoted. Yes, we've made mistakes. Yes, it's good to admit mistakes. And yes, agreed...on much more of what you say. However, what we'll always disagree on, is that our POTUS made a point to speak of such on foreign soil. Again, this is unprecedented for a U.S president to make such remarks...and so many of them.

    I will give you an example: a member here, who is often at odds with a majority of posters here....replied in a thread, copping to some bad times in his life. He quickly deleted it (unfortunate, but smartly imo) because he knew the vultures here would use it against him in future posts.

    Now, he's just a member on a forum. When the POTUS says things that you defend as just being honest? I see those remarks as showing weakness to a world that would love to "tear us apart" as a country. When you're a world leader (of the greatest nation on earth...sorry UK and others ), you don't give anyone fodder to beat you over the head with, despite there being truth in your heartfelt words.

    Again, no venom here. Just saying that we will obviously, not see eye to eye on this. Let it go....
    Well said.
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post


    I get what you are saying ... I just don't think it has the effect that you think it does.
    Apparently there is data and it supports that his style is working
    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...esident-obama/

    1Globally, Obamas image is mostly positive. Across the 40 countries polled, a median of 65% say they have confidence in Obama to do the right thing in world affairs. A median of just 27% lack confidence in the American leader. Overall, Obama remains much more popular globally than his predecessor, but opinions vary significantly across nations and regions.

    Interesting that when W was President the mantra of the right was that we didn't care what the test of the world thinks of us.
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  14. #104
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    If Obama wants to apologize to other nations, more power to him. I'm cool with that.

    But first, he must apologize to the American People for all his lies.
    This above all..
    To thine ownself be true..
    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    If Obama wants to apologize to other nations, more power to him. I'm cool with that.

    But first, he must apologize to the American People for all his lies.
    He's already owned up to the Lybia fiasco. I belive he refers to it as a sh!t sandwich and admitted that failing to plan ahead was a major mistake.

    Can't remember the last Potus to admit a mistake.
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    If Obama wants to apologize to other nations, more power to him. I'm cool with that.

    But first, he must apologize to the American People for all his lies.
    I'll start...for a family of 4 your health insurance premium in Obamacare will go down $2500. Lie....
    Well meaning, elderly man with a poor memory...pause
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    Originally Posted by JediRN View Post
    Apparently there is data and it supports that his style is working
    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...esident-obama/

    1Globally, Obama’s image is mostly positive. Across the 40 countries polled, a median of 65% say they have confidence in Obama to do the right thing in world affairs. A median of just 27% lack confidence in the American leader. Overall, Obama remains much more popular globally than his predecessor, but opinions vary significantly across nations and regions.

    Interesting that when W was President the mantra of the right was that we didn't care what the test of the world thinks of us.
    As Russia and China what they think of all the apology tours...and ISIS and Israel...and...
    Well meaning, elderly man with a poor memory...pause
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    Originally Posted by dbx View Post
    I posted the list, so it would be more appropriate to reply to me, not Karl. And I will keep this as simple as I can; go back and see my closing remarks at the end of what I quoted. Yes, we've made mistakes. Yes, it's good to admit mistakes. And yes, agreed...on much more of what you say. However, what we'll always disagree on, is that our POTUS made a point to speak of such on foreign soil. Again, this is unprecedented for a U.S president to make such remarks...and so many of them.

    I will give you an example: a member here, who is often at odds with a majority of posters here....replied in a thread, copping to some bad times in his life. He quickly deleted it (unfortunate, but smartly imo) because he knew the vultures here would use it against him in future posts.

    Now, he's just a member on a forum. When the POTUS says things that you defend as just being honest? I see those remarks as showing weakness to a world that would love to "tear us apart" as a country. When you're a world leader (of the greatest nation on earth...sorry UK and others ), you don't give anyone fodder to beat you over the head with, despite there being truth in your heartfelt words.

    Again, no venom here. Just saying that we will obviously, not see eye to eye on this. Let it go....
    Ooops! You sure did. Well, then I guess we all know who REALLY needs to apologize.

    Sorry about that.

    But I still completely and strongly disagree with any of the remarks posted as being a sign of weakness, nor is it in any form a reasonable or rational indicator of any probability of apologizing for Hiroshima. It's a total non-sequiter to go from one to the other.
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    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    If Obama wants to apologize to other nations, more power to him. I'm cool with that.

    But first, he must apologize to the American People for all his lies.
    He would have to stand in line for that.
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
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    Well, now's a good time to bump this thread. Obama went to Hiroshima. And he didn't apologize.

    So, what about those of you who had bitterly condemned him in advance because you were sure that he would? Do you have anything to take back? Or are you just going to double down? Or, a year from now, will you have convinced yourselves that he did apologize after all and use that mismemory as evidence against him?
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Well, now's a good time to bump this thread. Obama went to Hiroshima. And he didn't apologize.

    So, what about those of you who had bitterly condemned him in advance because you were sure that he would? Do you have anything to take back? Or are you just going to double down? Or, a year from now, will you have convinced yourselves that he did apologize after all and use that mismemory as evidence against him?
    . I could not care less about what he does.
    If you poke a bear in the eye, expect a bear like response.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Well, now's a good time to bump this thread. Obama went to Hiroshima. And he didn't apologize.

    So, what about those of you who had bitterly condemned him in advance because you were sure that he would? Do you have anything to take back? Or are you just going to double down? Or, a year from now, will you have convinced yourselves that he did apologize after all and use that mismemory as evidence against him?
    He went there on Memorial Day weekend and paid homage to their dead. No I ain't taking any of it back. And what he said was pretty much worse than an apology. Maybe he should have gone to Pearl Harbor instead, not sure he could find it even though he was born in Hawaii.
    Semper Fi.



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    Originally Posted by Fishman15 View Post
    Just once I'd like to hear about a foreign leader coming to our soil and apologizing for being *******s. Just once...
    It won't happen my friend.
    This president is a disgrace.
    I sure don't see Japan apologizing for Pearl Harbor ot the Bataan Death March?.
    I knew damn well when this pos went over there, he was going to apologize.
    What a fukcing disgrace.
    Last edited by so-tex; 05-28-2016 at 06:03 PM.
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    Originally Posted by CaptChip40 View Post
    He went there on Memorial Day weekend and paid homage to their dead. No I ain't taking any of it back. And what he said was pretty much worse than an apology. Maybe he should have gone to Pearl Harbor instead, not sure he could find it even though he was born in Hawaii.
    So, you're doubling down. Be specific -- what was worse than an apology? Calling for an end to nuclear weapons?

    And let me tell you one other thing, Mr. "Semper Fi": Lot of American Veterans have gone to the battlefield and cemetaries of their former enemies and paid homage to the fallen. The fighting men of all sides deserve to be respected. None of them asked for the wars that they were caught up in. Japanese, Germans, Russians, French, Chinese, British, Canadians, Dutch, French, Italians, and too many citizens of other countries fought bravely and died for their countries, right or wrong. The only ones that deserve to be condemned are the politicians who started the whole mess, and the war criminals who made it even worse than it had to be. The great majority of faceless soldiers and sailors on all sides deserve honor, and any real fighting man worthy of the name is going to recognize that and honor it himself.

    But you, you have to make sh!t up -- if reality doesn't match your prejudices, then you'll simply deny it.

    That's why I brought the thread back up again, I knew certain people wouldn't be able to deal with the truth, and wouldn't honestly face their mistakes.
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    Originally Posted by so-tex View Post
    .
    I knew damn well when this pos went over there, he was going to apologize.
    What a fukcing disgrace.
    But he didn't. You were wrong. And you can't even admit that simple little fact.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    But he didn't. You were wrong. And you can't even admit that simple little fact.
    Of course he didn't use the actual word, but here's a guy that's been going around the world confessing to a long history of American sins.
    Instead of being in Hiroshima, he should be here honoring our veterans.
    Yes, he's a pos.
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    Originally Posted by so-tex View Post
    Of course he didn't use the actual word, but here's a guy that's been going around the world confessing to a long history of American sins.
    Instead of being in Hiroshima, he should be here honoring our veterans.
    Yes, he's a pos.
    The 1st Tuesday in November is just around the corner and can't come soon enough...
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    It was nice of obama to hug the hiroshima survivors. i am sure he will be hugging pearl harbor survivors this weekend as its memorial day.

    oh wait, no he wont.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    But he didn't. You were wrong. And you can't even admit that simple little fact.
    At the risk of taking the middle ground here (pissing off both sides ).....I do believe that what he did can be construed as an apology of sorts (again, without using the actual word). But I also thought what he did (going there and the speech that he gave) was a good thing, in general. That is, as an isolated event. Unfortunately (imo), he's done this so many times as our POTUS, that it becomes a detraction.

    Lastly, I couldn't agree more (with others here) that the "timing" of this visit was in poor taste. And this is what made it stand out the most for those pissed off about it.
    "If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."
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    Originally Posted by Fishman15 View Post
    The 1st Tuesday in November is just around the corner and can't come soon enough...
    Hillary will do a great job. I'm looking forward to it too.

    Originally Posted by so-tex View Post
    Of course he didn't use the actual word, but here's a guy that's been going around the world confessing to a long history of American sins.
    Instead of being in Hiroshima, he should be here honoring our veterans.
    Yes, he's a pos.
    What exactly did he say that offended you? Here's the text.

    Seventy-one years ago, on a bright cloudless morning, death fell from the sky and the world was changed. A flash of light and a wall of fire destroyed a city and demonstrated that mankind possessed the means to destroy itself.

    Why do we come to this place, to Hiroshima? We come to ponder a terrible force unleashed in a not-so-distant past. We come to mourn the dead, including over 100,000 Japanese men, women and children, thousands of Koreans, a dozen Americans held prisoner.

    Their souls speak to us. They ask us to look inward, to take stock of who we are and what we might become.

    It is not the fact of war that sets Hiroshima apart. Artifacts tell us that violent conflict appeared with the very first man. Our early ancestors having learned to make blades from flint and spears from wood used these tools not just for hunting but against their own kind. On every continent, the history of civilization is filled with war, whether driven by scarcity of grain or hunger for gold, compelled by nationalist fervor or religious zeal. Empires have risen and fallen. Peoples have been subjugated and liberated. And at each juncture, innocents have suffered, a countless toll, their names forgotten by time.

    The world war that reached its brutal end in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was fought among the wealthiest and most powerful of nations. Their civilizations had given the world great cities and magnificent art. Their thinkers had advanced ideas of justice and harmony and truth. And yet the war grew out of the same base instinct for domination or conquest that had caused conflicts among the simplest tribes, an old pattern amplified by new capabilities and without new constraints.

    In the span of a few years, some 60 million people would die. Men, women, children, no different than us. Shot, beaten, marched, bombed, jailed, starved, gassed to death. There are many sites around the world that chronicle this war, memorials that tell stories of courage and heroism, graves and empty camps that echo of unspeakable depravity.

    Yet in the image of a mushroom cloud that rose into these skies, we are most starkly reminded of humanitys core contradiction. How the very spark that marks us as a species, our thoughts, our imagination, our language, our toolmaking, our ability to set ourselves apart from nature and bend it to our will those very things also give us the capacity for unmatched destruction.

    How often does material advancement or social innovation blind us to this truth? How easily we learn to justify violence in the name of some higher cause.

    Every great religion promises a pathway to love and peace and righteousness, and yet no religion has been spared from believers who have claimed their faith as a license to kill.

    Nations arise telling a story that binds people together in sacrifice and cooperation, allowing for remarkable feats. But those same stories have so often been used to oppress and dehumanize those who are different.

    Science allows us to communicate across the seas and fly above the clouds, to cure disease and understand the cosmos, but those same discoveries can be turned into ever more efficient killing machines.

    The wars of the modern age teach us this truth. Hiroshima teaches this truth. Technological progress without an equivalent progress in human institutions can doom us. The scientific revolution that led to the splitting of an atom requires a moral revolution as well.

    That is why we come to this place. We stand here in the middle of this city and force ourselves to imagine the moment the bomb fell. We force ourselves to feel the dread of children confused by what they see. We listen to a silent cry. We remember all the innocents killed across the arc of that terrible war and the wars that came before and the wars that would follow.

    Mere words cannot give voice to such suffering. But we have a shared responsibility to look directly into the eye of history and ask what we must do differently to curb such suffering again.

    Some day, the voices of the hibakusha will no longer be with us to bear witness. But the memory of the morning of Aug. 6, 1945, must never fade. That memory allows us to fight complacency. It fuels our moral imagination. It allows us to change.

    And since that fateful day, we have made choices that give us hope. The United States and Japan have forged not only an alliance but a friendship that has won far more for our people than we could ever claim through war. The nations of Europe built a union that replaced battlefields with bonds of commerce and democracy. Oppressed people and nations won liberation. An international community established institutions and treaties that work to avoid war and aspire to restrict and roll back and ultimately eliminate the existence of nuclear weapons.

    Still, every act of aggression between nations, every act of terror and corruption and cruelty and oppression that we see around the world shows our work is never done. We may not be able to eliminate mans capacity to do evil, so nations and the alliances that we form must possess the means to defend ourselves. But among those nations like my own that hold nuclear stockpiles, we must have the courage to escape the logic of fear and pursue a world without them.

    We may not realize this goal in my lifetime, but persistent effort can roll back the possibility of catastrophe. We can chart a course that leads to the destruction of these stockpiles. We can stop the spread to new nations and secure deadly materials from fanatics.

    And yet that is not enough. For we see around the world today how even the crudest rifles and barrel bombs can serve up violence on a terrible scale. We must change our mind-set about war itself. To prevent conflict through diplomacy and strive to end conflicts after theyve begun. To see our growing interdependence as a cause for peaceful cooperation and not violent competition. To define our nations not by our capacity to destroy but by what we build. And perhaps, above all, we must reimagine our connection to one another as members of one human race.

    For this, too, is what makes our species unique. Were not bound by genetic code to repeat the mistakes of the past. We can learn. We can choose. We can tell our children a different story, one that describes a common humanity, one that makes war less likely and cruelty less easily accepted.

    We see these stories in the hibakusha. The woman who forgave a pilot who flew the plane that dropped the atomic bomb because she recognized that what she really hated was war itself. The man who sought out families of Americans killed here because he believed their loss was equal to his own.

    My own nations story began with simple words: All men are created equal and endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Realizing that ideal has never been easy, even within our own borders, even among our own citizens. But staying true to that story is worth the effort. It is an ideal to be strived for, an ideal that extends across continents and across oceans. The irreducible worth of every person, the insistence that every life is precious, the radical and necessary notion that we are part of a single human family that is the story that we all must tell.

    That is why we come to Hiroshima. So that we might think of people we love. The first smile from our children in the morning. The gentle touch from a spouse over the kitchen table. The comforting embrace of a parent. We can think of those things and know that those same precious moments took place here, 71 years ago.

    Those who died, they are like us. Ordinary people understand this, I think. They do not want more war. They would rather that the wonders of science be focused on improving life and not eliminating it. When the choices made by nations, when the choices made by leaders, reflect this simple wisdom, then the lesson of Hiroshima is done.

    The world was forever changed here, but today the children of this city will go through their day in peace. What a precious thing that is. It is worth protecting, and then extending to every child. That is a future we can choose, a future in which Hiroshima and Nagasaki are known not as the dawn of atomic warfare but as the start of our own moral awakening.

    The number of examples of Obama honoring our troops current and past are vast. All Presidents do it.

    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    But he didn't. You were wrong. And you can't even admit that simple little fact.
    At some point, admitting you're wrong has become a sign of weakness instead of a sign of strength. I'm as guilty as anyone, on occasion so I'm not pointing fingers. I'm having a belated come to Jesus on Hillary's lying about her emails.
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