Bulking beyond 25% Body Fat

[delftefprepjed]

I am 36 years skinny fat male. Working out in gym for 3 years running. My height is 174 cms (5'9 ft) When I started I was 93 kgs (204 lbs.) My trainer told me to do cardio and lose fat. I reached 74 kgs (162 lbs) after 7 months. However, I looked sick and horrible (lack of muscle mass or tone with saggy skin). I went for a bulk and followed Jim stoppanis Shortcut to size for 12 weeks. (it was a waste). after that I consulted the gym coach for exercises..He put me on a Chest-tri and Back-Bi split. Then after went for a push pull. A very mild improvement in body muscluature but easily put on fat. When I gain 1 kg of body weight (it is 700 grams fat and just 300 grams muscle and water). My coach told me to do a testosterone test. I did the test and My test result is 416 ng/dl. ( as per endocrinologist it is fine, but i still wonder).

Currently i bulked from 74kgs to 94 kgs...(All my weight is mainly fat gain and centered in my belly region and little innter thighs and back flanks). However, I feel powerful and can work-out well in the gym. I currently take Whey protein, Pre-workout, Optimen Vitamins and creatine monohydrate.

My question is can I bulk futher even beyond my weight of 94kgs and being 30% + Body fat? or it is counter productive for muscle gain? My vitals (medically fit) are all fine as of now. What is your opinion about bulking further? is it possible, feasible viable?

I surely do appreciate long detailed and professional answers and guidance ...and thanks guys :-)

[manishyadav1979]

Hi ! Your Body Fat Percentage is currently on higher side. Your focus should be the weight management first. I would suggest you to eat clean diet and reduce your daily caloric intake by 500 Calories from maintenance calories. Include circuit training in your workouts routine.
When you do resistance training and take caloric deficit diet, You lose fat more than muscle mass.

Manish Yadav
ACE Certified Personal Trainer & Nutrition Specialist

[grubman]

Got some pics to go along with the story?

My first impression upon reading this post (just MH unedited early morning O): There’s nothing wrong with you test level...you are an out of shape, middle aged man, who MOST LIKELY (I don’t know you...but anyone relying on a “trainer” to tell them what to do after 3 years makes me skeptical) has a sloppy diet and works out with much less effort and dedication than you think.

I mean, how strict is your diet? You didn’t mention diet at all in your post...and when it comes to weight and fat, that’s more important than your workout. Do you count calories and weigh food? Go out to eat a lot, drink alcohol? “Party” on the weekends? Eat excess sugar, snacks in the evening? Smoke? What? What’s the diet like?

In 3 years how much personal research have you done on lifting? How much experimentation have you tried on yourself to see what works and what doesn’t? Do you miss workouts for ANY reason? Do you put max gut busting effort into every workout...or do you just come in and go through the motions your “trainer” or “coach” tells you to do?

I’m sorry for sounding harsh. Congratulations on the initial weight loss...but after 3 years, a serious dedicated lifter shouldn’t be asking if getting fatter is going to make him look less fat, or wondering how to control normal fat gain/loss. If these trainers and coaches are worth anything, then should have put you on the right path long ago...if not, it’s time for you to do some research and intelligent experimentation on both diet and lifting.

Not trying to bust your balls...but if your looking for a trick to get around sloppy diet and training, you aren’t going to find it here. If I’m totally off base, let me know, outline the diet and training regiments, and it will help subsequent posters to give you productive advice. If I hit the nail on the head, you probably know what you need to do...just do it!

[mtpockets]

I am 36 years skinny fat male. Working out in gym for 3 years running. My height is 174 cms (5'9 ft) When I started I was 93 kgs (204 lbs.) My trainer told me to do cardio and lose fat. I reached 74 kgs (162 lbs) after 7 months. However, I looked sick and horrible (lack of muscle mass or tone with saggy skin). I went for a bulk and followed Jim stoppanis Shortcut to size for 12 weeks. (it was a waste). after that I consulted the gym coach for exercises..He put me on a Chest-tri and Back-Bi split. Then after went for a push pull. A very mild improvement in body muscluature but easily put on fat. When I gain 1 kg of body weight (it is 700 grams fat and just 300 grams muscle and water). My coach told me to do a testosterone test. I did the test and My test result is 416 ng/dl. ( as per endocrinologist it is fine, but i still wonder).

Currently i bulked from 74kgs to 94 kgs...(All my weight is mainly fat gain and centered in my belly region and little innter thighs and back flanks). However, I feel powerful and can work-out well in the gym. I currently take Whey protein, Pre-workout, Optimen Vitamins and creatine monohydrate.

My question is can I bulk futher even beyond my weight of 94kgs and being 30% + Body fat? or it is counter productive for muscle gain? My vitals (medically fit) are all fine as of now. What is your opinion about bulking further? is it possible, feasible viable?

I surely do appreciate long detailed and professional answers and guidance ...and thanks guys :-)

How did you determine the bf% ?

[OldFartTom]

Fat does stuff, it doesn't just sit about being fat. Just one "fun" thing it can do is an aromatase conversion of "T" to estrogen (estradiol)
When your BF% gets above a certain level (depends on person) it starts doing that much more actively
Increasing body fat % starts to become counterproductive for muscle growth (as well as not good for health in many other ways)
Where you want to decide is the % for you to stop.. that's really your decision, but I'd expect you to have an answer more like perhaps <=20% and certainly *not* 30%! (or 15%, 17% or something if you are a bodybuilder). I can't see any scenario where continuing to increase your fat is going to be good.

I'm sorry to say that the harsh truth of Grubman's post is completely accurate

[TAWS6]

I wouldn't bulk over 20. You'll just have a longer clean up phase.

[ElrondHubbard]

Agree with Grubman and the rest. There's no reason on Earth for you to add any more fat. Your trainers, if that's what they really were, are worthless. Your workout program is either inadequate, or you aren't following it well. And your diet is obviously poor.

Nothing wrong with whey and creatine, but they need a good foundational diet to work with. 5'9 and over 200 pounds, unless you have monster muscle mass, is simply too much fat. Your vital signs may be good for now, but you're undermining your health, and it's not going to be pretty.

Hint: If saggy skin was an issue when you lost weight previously, then lack of muscle tone was NOT the problem. If the skin is sagging from weight loss, the an increased musculature may not be immediately obvious. You would have been better off simply staying lean, and allowing the skin to gradually assume it's proper fit. Eventually, it would have, while you could have been concentrating on muscular hypertrophy in the meantime.

[DuracellBunny]

The adult male body performs optimally in the 12-18% range.

/thread

[Garage Rat]

Anytime you "bulk up" with excess calories your going to add body fat.
Who knows really how much muscle will be gained on that bulk up.
Usually not as much as you think.
I call it the the yoyo style of bodybuilding going up,going down in bodyweight,then back up and back down.
Really the best way is to gain muscle is to do it slowly over a long period of time with a slight calorie surplus which should be mostly protein.
You must be meticulous in keeping a diet and training journal recording every day to know exactly what your eating and doing training wise.
Use the mirror and pictures as gages to your progress.
It can years to gain pure muscle mass for the natural bodybuilder and you have to be patient about it.
Not for everyone as most people want fast results which is not going to happen.
Good luck.

[PhantomMaxx]

Intentionally putting on more than 25% body fat has no rational reason how ever you slice it. You hove bulked too fast with the wrong food and poor training. Good luck OP.

[kimm4]

You main focus needs to be fat loss while preserving the muscle you carry now. Set up a calorie deficit though your diet and stay consistent with a heavy lifting program.

[mtpockets]

Op never returned, probably faded away

[ElrondHubbard]

Op never returned, probably faded away

You don't fade in a bulk. It's hard to post and eat pizza at the same time.

[RICKMILLER68]

I would be careful about doing it, but good luck!

[delftefprepjed]

Hi guys,

Thanks to one and all for your inputs.

All what was said is true :-

1) Nutrition is messed up. ( Reason:- I work shifts and high pressure job..Cannot cook meals or do meal prep. I did meal prep it the past for 4 months...lost 24 pounds. However, currently Not sustainable)

2) Gym trainers dont teach you much. Relying on online coaches, is a hit or miss for most people..The gym I work out in is the "Planet Fitness" types...So I see most people dont get results not me alone. ( like 2 out of 10 gymmers get to see any REAL progress whatsoever). And those with Body worth watching n saying Wow...They are eating Burgers Man...I guess its the extra 5% they take which we cant talk about here.

3) My Body fat % and muscle mass is all measured on "In-Body" BIA machines (all measured within 30 seconds).

4) My Work-out plan is Bad-Ass (6 Days a week Push Pull Legs - with 14 exercises days of 3 sets each...rep range 12,10,10 8 for most lifts). Somehow I dont respond to low volume training. Thats a mystery why? Skinny fat, low test???? Hmm ..When I go low volume I see zero to negative progress..and If i go high volume i suffer recovery issues. Struggling with Recovery..Glutamine aint doing much.

5) If I do go on a diet....My lifts stall, i have NO energy for work-outs even with a heavy dose of Pre-Workout...I guess i am "A damned Being, useless and not made for the gym" what do you think? I can lose weight..but not gain muscle :-(

6) Kinda Depressed...going thru a Divorce and worried for life, the money the house. The Lawyer Fees...My Cortisol is sky high ( im assuming). Can i still build muscle? or should i altoghter quit gym altogther :-( ???

[dazlittle]

when does a bulk stop being a bulk and just become being fat/obese?

Asking for a friend.

[OldFartTom]

Definitely don't keep bulking if you are at high bodyfat. 74Kg --> 94Kg --> 74Kg --> that doesn't sound healthy either, you've got to make those bulks/cuts smaller and slower. Aim for a good weight and look after your health as priority, especially while life is dealing you bad cards.

Good luck!

[willybrokeback]

Hi guys,

Thanks to one and all for your inputs.

All what was said is true :-

1) Nutrition is messed up. ( Reason:- I work shifts and high pressure job..Cannot cook meals or do meal prep. I did meal prep it the past for 4 months...lost 24 pounds. However, currently Not sustainable)

2) Gym trainers dont teach you much. Relying on online coaches, is a hit or miss for most people..The gym I work out in is the "Planet Fitness" types...So I see most people dont get results not me alone. ( like 2 out of 10 gymmers get to see any REAL progress whatsoever). And those with Body worth watching n saying Wow...They are eating Burgers Man...I guess its the extra 5% they take which we cant talk about here.

3) My Body fat % and muscle mass is all measured on "In-Body" BIA machines (all measured within 30 seconds).

4) My Work-out plan is Bad-Ass (6 Days a week Push Pull Legs - with 14 exercises days of 3 sets each...rep range 12,10,10 8 for most lifts). Somehow I dont respond to low volume training. Thats a mystery why? Skinny fat, low test???? Hmm ..When I go low volume I see zero to negative progress..and If i go high volume i suffer recovery issues. Struggling with Recovery..Glutamine aint doing much.

5) If I do go on a diet....My lifts stall, i have NO energy for work-outs even with a heavy dose of Pre-Workout...I guess i am "A damned Being, useless and not made for the gym" what do you think? I can lose weight..but not gain muscle :-(

6) Kinda Depressed...going thru a Divorce and worried for life, the money the house. The Lawyer Fees...My Cortisol is sky high ( im assuming). Can i still build muscle? or should i altoghter quit gym altogther :-( ???

Quitting the gym is the last thing you should do. I am not very adept at cutting down my body fat, but at the very least I don't quit and accept what I don't like. Keeping working at it until you find out what works. There are some good articles on T-Nation regarding cortisol, keeping it at bay and lifting. Good luck and keep at it.

[waknickm]

"5) If I do go on a diet....My lifts stall, i have NO energy for work-outs even with a heavy dose of Pre-Workout...I guess i am "A damned Being, useless and not made for the gym" what do you think? I can lose weight..but not gain muscle :-("

You don't normally gain muscle and lose weight at the same time. Losing weight and just maintaining muscle is a win for a lot of experienced lifters.
You may need to experiment with your diet. You need a certain level of Fat, protein and carbs in your diet, but after the minimum you have some flexibility for the remaining calories. You may need more carbs for energy just make sure you hit the minimum for the other macros. Meal timing does not effect fat loss, but can impact energy. For me the Pre-workout hits me more on an empty stomach and I am used to getting my first meal after lifting, but everyone is different.

[EjnarKolinkar]

My question is can I bulk futher even beyond my weight of 94kgs and being 30% + Body fat?

Excess fat is not generally recommended. Perhaps review the most widely proven principles of resistance training and a pursue a well rounded diet.

Folks in a hurry for results often spin their wheels gaining too much, looosing too quickly, or pursuing other unrealistic objectives.

[ElrondHubbard]

Hi guys,

Thanks to one and all for your inputs.

All what was said is true :-

1) Nutrition is messed up. ( Reason:- I work shifts and high pressure job..Cannot cook meals or do meal prep. I did meal prep it the past for 4 months...lost 24 pounds. However, currently Not sustainable)

2) Gym trainers dont teach you much. Relying on online coaches, is a hit or miss for most people..The gym I work out in is the "Planet Fitness" types...So I see most people dont get results not me alone. ( like 2 out of 10 gymmers get to see any REAL progress whatsoever). And those with Body worth watching n saying Wow...They are eating Burgers Man...I guess its the extra 5% they take which we cant talk about here.

3) My Body fat % and muscle mass is all measured on "In-Body" BIA machines (all measured within 30 seconds).

4) My Work-out plan is Bad-Ass (6 Days a week Push Pull Legs - with 14 exercises days of 3 sets each...rep range 12,10,10 8 for most lifts). Somehow I dont respond to low volume training. Thats a mystery why? Skinny fat, low test???? Hmm ..When I go low volume I see zero to negative progress..and If i go high volume i suffer recovery issues. Struggling with Recovery..Glutamine aint doing much.

5) If I do go on a diet....My lifts stall, i have NO energy for work-outs even with a heavy dose of Pre-Workout...I guess i am "A damned Being, useless and not made for the gym" what do you think? I can lose weight..but not gain muscle :-(

6) Kinda Depressed...going thru a Divorce and worried for life, the money the house. The Lawyer Fees...My Cortisol is sky high ( im assuming). Can i still build muscle? or should i altoghter quit gym altogther :-( ???

Stress, poor diet, lack of rest, and very possibly a poorly structured workout plan are all contributing to your lack of progress. But those are not excuses to quit training. They are issues you need to address, individually.

Working shifts and job pressures are not an excuse for a poor diet. Or, rather, they ARE an excuse, but just an excuse. They don't justify it, and don't make it necessary. You're still eating, and I'm sure you're still making choices about what to eat. You can make better choices.

Yes, lifts stall when we lose weight. That's inevitable. That doesn't mean we stop lifting, or stop trying to lose weight. It means we do our best to maintain while we lose the fat. Once you get to your weight goal, your lifts will begin to increase again.

You say you don't respond to low volume training, and you have recovery problems with high volume training. What are your criteria for progress? What are your long term goals, both for strength and weight? Is your diet and workout program designed to achieve those goals? Are your goals perhaps contradictory?