UD 2.0 at Slightly-Higher-than-Recommended BF Levels

[AfroPope]

So after buying and reading the book, I know that McDonald says in The Ultimate Diet 2.0 that you should be 12-15% BF before attempting it.

Let's say that due to a number of hormone issues and a history of being fat, I've got maybe ten to fifteen pounds of body fat that I am having trouble losing, and have had trouble losing for years, and am currently at 17-18% depending on the calipers and day, and have been for a very long time despite having my diet dialed in (down to weighing my food) and being on a good routine.

Given these things, let's say I wanted to do the UD 2.0 ANYWAY, and would be able to stick with it from a discipline/anxiety standpoint. Is there any actual harm in doing this?

McDonald himself says that I am not at the level where this is necessary yet, but let's say I want to be arrogant and ignore his advice even though obviously he knows more than I do - is there actually any risk, or is the issue just that it's overkill for someone in my boat?

I'm more just trying to get a handle on that part of the underlying concepts, here, and see where to go from here.

Thanks!

[Mrpb]

I like 90% of what Lyle writes and advices. UD 2.0 isn't one of them. The available research suggest that cyclical ketogenic dieting is a bad plan. To get properly adapted to keto takes about 1-2 weeks. Carbing up every week will sabotage this process and will cause nitrogen losses.

A cyclical diet isn't necessary for recomping anyway. You can get better results with diet that maximises MPS.

[AfroPope]

I like 90% of what Lyle writes and advices. UD 2.0 isn't one of them. The available research suggest that cyclical ketogenic dieting is a bad plan. To get properly adapted to keto takes about 1-2 weeks. Carbing up every week will sabotage this process and will cause nitrogen losses.

A cyclical diet isn't necessary for recomping anyway. You can get better results with diet that maximises MPS.

Interesting. Could you link me to that research? Not saying I don't believe you, I am just curious because, as you said, he's usually pretty on the mark and I know a number of people have gotten very good results with UD2.0.

If you'd also point me in the direction of such a diet, that'd be great, because I have absolutely plateaued and am already eating at quite a deficit.

[Mrpb]

Interesting. Could you link me to that research? Not saying I don't believe you, I am just curious because, as you said, he's usually pretty on the mark and I know a number of people have gotten very good results with UD2.0.

Wilson mentions one here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto...questions.html

And then there's the new Hall study showing that when you switch to keto it reduces fat loss and increases nitrogen loss.
http://www.thenutritionwonk.com/#!Is...f26b6d6848a8f8

It takes a while before keto starts working.

If you'd also point me in the direction of such a diet, that'd be great, because I have absolutely plateaued and am already eating at quite a deficit.

You plateaued in weight loss you mean?

What is your current diet? What are you current lifts?

[AfroPope]

Wilson mentions one here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto...questions.html

And then there's the new Hall study showing that when you switch to keto it reduces fat loss and increases nitrogen loss.
http://www.thenutritionwonk.com/#!Is...f26b6d6848a8f8

It takes a while before keto starts working.



You plateaued in weight loss you mean?

What is your current diet? What are you current lifts?

Interesting. Thanks for the links.

Currently at 200p/75f/125c. No carbs before my workout, that 125c number includes intra-workout carbs, high GI carbs and protein after workout, and then complex carbs with dinner (or whatever my post-workout meal is). This is my own modification of a diet that was made for me by a trainer who works with a decent number of pros and came highly recommended by a number of friends. The modification is that I worked with him and got this meal plan about three years and 30lbs of lbm ago, so I've adjusted the calories and macros accordingly. Carbs do not seem to be my friend and I retain water like crazy, just as a general thing.

PRs for S/B/D are 325/215/395 (lbs), though I imagine they're lower now due to some fairly serious health/hormone issues over the past month or so. If I were to calculate based on last weeks workout I'd say S/B/D would be 285/175/355 (rounded to multiples of five).

[Mrpb]

Currently at 200p/75f/125c. No carbs before my workout, that 125c number includes intra-workout carbs, high GI carbs and protein after workout, and then complex carbs with dinner (or whatever my post-workout meal is). This is my own modification of a diet that was made for me by a trainer who works with a decent number of pros and came highly recommended by a number of friends. The modification is that I worked with him and got this meal plan about three years and 30lbs of lbm ago, so I've adjusted the calories and macros accordingly. Carbs do not seem to be my friend and I retain water like crazy, just as a general thing.

PRs for S/B/D are 325/215/395 (lbs), though I imagine they're lower now due to some fairly serious health/hormone issues over the past month or so. If I were to calculate based on last weeks workout I'd say S/B/D would be 285/175/355 (rounded to multiples of five).

Ok.

How many meals with >30 gram protein do you have now and how are they spread?

[AfroPope]

Ok.

How many meals with >30 gram protein do you have now and how are they spread?

Five of approx 40g per meal. Breakfast (usually greek yogurt and eggs), Lunch (usually a baked chicken breast with green vegetables, often add low gi fruits to this meal as well), post-workout shake, dinner (I switch this up, tends to be some variation on chicken/salmon/lean steak with potatoes/brown rice/etc and green vegetables), small casein shake before I go to bed (this is usually closer to 20-25g depending on my requirements left for the day).

Breakfast and lunch are usually three hours apart. Workout is usually about 3 hours after lunch, late afternoon/early evening. Post workout shake is 30 minutes after workout, dinner about 90 minutes after that. Bedtime is whenever, I am self-employed so my schedule varies. I have a cheat meal once a week, by which I do not mean "I go out and eat a bunch of pizza and drink a bunch of beer and then have ice cream," but I mean I still try to eat well but I do not track one meal a week. Usually it'll be like, a burger or some pasta or sushi or whatever at a restaurant with my girlfriend. Something still reasonable, but something I don't have to measure out, weigh, and worry about. Minus that I am quite strict about tracking everything and hitting my macros.

[chamelious]

I have absolutely plateaued and am already eating at quite a deficit.

FYI this is a contradiction. If you are maintaining your weight, you're eating at maintenance, not a deficit.

MRPB's advice is always spot on. If you want to continue losing weight, you have to consume less calories.

[Mrpb]

Yeah your protein intake seems fine.

If weight loss is your goal it's all about reducing calories until you lose about a pound per week.

Some people do better on ketogenic diets. If you want to try that I'd recommend committing to it for a while. As I mentioned before I see no good coming from weekly high carb days during keto.

[Znik]

I like 90% of what Lyle writes and advices. UD 2.0 isn't one of them. The available research suggest that cyclical ketogenic dieting is a bad plan. To get properly adapted to keto takes about 1-2 weeks. Carbing up every week will sabotage this process and will cause nitrogen losses.

A cyclical diet isn't necessary for recomping anyway. You can get better results with diet that maximises MPS.

UD 2.0 is not about going ketogenic though is it ? Lyle mentions in his book that going ketogenic is not a goal. 3-4 days of steep deficit and 3-4 days of supercompensation/maintenance/small deficit is. Similar to a 4/7 cyclical diet which does seem to have some merit in terms of metabolic adaptions and leptin.

I had good success with it my last cut, especially in terms of strength and energy.

OP: I believe the reason Lyle recommends ~12% bf for UD 2.0 because if you are higher then you are likely to achieve better/faster results with Rapid Fat Loss as it has more days in a big deficit. Since the more fat you carry the faster you can lose it, UD 2.0 is slightly more conservative in terms of deficit and LBM preservation.

[Mrpb]

UD 2.0 is not about going ketogenic though is it ?

While it's not the goal it does involve very low carb days (~50 grams).

The Hall study showed slow down of fat loss and increase of nitrogen loss during the first few very low carb days.

If I was to use any form of intermittent calorie restriction I would use 5 days deficit, 2 days maintenance, without ever going very low carb.

[Znik]

While it's not the goal it does involve very low carb days (~50 grams).

The Hall study showed slow down of fat loss and increase of nitrogen loss during the first few very low carb days.

If I was to use any form of intermittent calorie restriction I would use 5 days deficit, 2 days maintenance, without ever going very low carb.

He does recommend staying above 50g (65-75g/20% of calorie intake range for the Average Joe) to avoid keto/high rate of Gluconeogenesis.

I like the increased weight loss rate from PSMF/cyclical diets as it saves a lot of time, in doing any form of such extreme deficits you are going to have to go low carb(well low everything apart from protein) to ensure there is calorie allowance for protein.
They tend to be brutal though so it's not for everyone and especially not rookies.

[Mrpb]

He does recommend staying above 50g (65-75g/20% of calorie intake range for the Average Joe) to avoid keto/high rate of Gluconeogenesis.

Yeah I read that. On thursday he drops the calories even lower before the carb up at night.

I see a lot of beneficial effects coming from keeping carbs higher: energy levels, suppressing muscle protein breakdown etc.

I like the increased weight loss rate from PSMF/cyclical diets as it saves a lot of time, in doing any form of such extreme deficits you are going to have to go low carb(well low everything apart from protein) to ensure there is calorie allowance for protein.
They tend to be brutal though so it's not for everyone and especially not rookies.

I understand that you're getting good results with it but would you recommend it to OP?

I wouldn't. I think he's better of trying a more moderate approach first.

[lee__d]

No, I wouldn't recommend it.

I've done it at higher than recommend BF. The workouts are honestly harder than the diet. You'll progress, but its' so much easier to do so with a normal deficit (since you're not battling stubborn fat). When you're lean and do it, you see weekly results and that'd be motivating in itself.

[Znik]

I understand that you're getting good results with it but would you recommend it to OP?

I wouldn't. I think he's better of trying a more moderate approach first.

Nope I would not considering:

Let's say that due to a number of hormone issues and a history of being fat

You already had OP covered nicely so I was just talking in general, but I do realize now that my posts didn't reflect that very well.

[AfroPope]

FYI this is a contradiction. If you are maintaining your weight, you're eating at maintenance, not a deficit.

MRPB's advice is always spot on. If you want to continue losing weight, you have to consume less calories.

True, it's just - GOD, this last 10-15 pounds keeping me from abs are STUBBORN.

Yeah your protein intake seems fine.

If weight loss is your goal it's all about reducing calories until you lose about a pound per week.

Some people do better on ketogenic diets. If you want to try that I'd recommend committing to it for a while. As I mentioned before I see no good coming from weekly high carb days during keto.

I have done well on ketogenic diets but it ultimately wasn't sustainable for me long-term in that I very much missed carbs and it was quite a bit more expensive (comparing grocery bills). Also I couldn't get my girlfriend or any of my friends on it so that made it a pain in the ass to adhere to.

No, I wouldn't recommend it.

I've done it at higher than recommend BF. The workouts are honestly harder than the diet. You'll progress, but its' so much easier to do so with a normal deficit (since you're not battling stubborn fat). When you're lean and do it, you see weekly results and that'd be motivating in itself.

Cool, thanks.

Thanks, both of ya. Rather than dropping calories first I'll increase my HIIT a little bit in an attempt to try to burn more, then see where that puts me in a couple weeks. My food intake right now is right at the edge of enough to keep me satisfied daily but I can probably drop it down a little more without being too miserable.

Thanks again.

[Mrpb]

True, it's just - GOD, this last 10-15 pounds keeping me from abs are STUBBORN.

Not really. It's just a matter of going low enough in calories while maintaining training intensity.

Stubborn fat is when you get to say ~11% and you're losing weight but the fat on the lower abdominals will not go.