Plyometrics

[hansomreiste]

Hi,

Whenever I try to search it on forum, I get server connection error. Sorry if there is already a guideline about it.

When should a person start plyometrics to get the maximum out of it? Some claim you should be able to squat %60 of your body weight and some even up to %150. And, squatting then what? 5 reps, 8 reps, 3 sets of 5 reps? What's the point to say, "Well, now plyometrics is the way to go for me" and what advantages does it bring?

What kind of plyometrics exercises would you advice for a beginner hockey player who follows SL5x5 program and when? I mean, what days should I be doing this supposing I follow SL5x5 on Mon/Wed/Fri.

[PhilB000]

Hi,

Whenever I try to search it on forum, I get server connection error. Sorry if there is already a guideline about it.

When should a person start plyometrics to get the maximum out of it? Some claim you should be able to squat %60 of your body weight and some even up to %150. And, squatting then what? 5 reps, 8 reps, 3 sets of 5 reps? What's the point to say, "Well, now plyometrics is the way to go for me" and what advantages does it bring?

What kind of plyometrics exercises would you advice for a beginner hockey player who follows SL5x5 program and when? I mean, what days should I be doing this supposing I follow SL5x5 on Mon/Wed/Fri.

Don't worry about the percentages of squat for your plyometric exercises, just focus on the SL5x5 for your lifts.

Plyometrics are primarily designed to increase agility and acceleration ie not strength. Some good plyos for hockey players are any pattern through and agility ladder -> easily found 20+ patterns in a google search just now.

Box jumps

Running in a circle around a post and having someone tell you when to reverse direction (clockwise, counterclockwise always facing the same way)

Skater Bounds

Battle Ropes

Less conventional "bodybuilding" ab work and focus more on planks, planks on exercise balls, jackknifes, medicine ball twists, cable twists, throwing medicine ball against the ground with all your force, lumberjacks, etc...

There are hockey plyo programs out there, you just gotta look. Check out the one Shattuck St. Mary's (school Sidney Crosby went to briefly among other notable NHLers) puts out for their athletes.

[alucidinterval]

Plyometrics is more about explosion then anything. Not sure about hockey specific, but for football/basketball the main emphasis that I've always heard is to "get off the ground as quickly as possible." I used to do plyo's thinking that the whole purpose was to jump as high/hard as possible, but didn't really see any results. When you really focus on getting off the ground and exploding, you'll see better results.

[jonmd123]

Hi,

Whenever I try to search it on forum, I get server connection error. Sorry if there is already a guideline about it.

When should a person start plyometrics to get the maximum out of it? Some claim you should be able to squat %60 of your body weight and some even up to %150. And, squatting then what? 5 reps, 8 reps, 3 sets of 5 reps? What's the point to say, "Well, now plyometrics is the way to go for me" and what advantages does it bring?

What kind of plyometrics exercises would you advice for a beginner hockey player who follows SL5x5 program and when? I mean, what days should I be doing this supposing I follow SL5x5 on Mon/Wed/Fri.

You need to be around 1.5 your bw, and be able to squat 60% of your bw 5 times in around 5 seconds before you do any high impact plyos.

If you start plyos before you can get around these numbers..

1. You won't be able to do the exercise as designed, you won't get any results, and you'll waste your time.
2. You're going to do more harm than good.

[Ggrodgers]

You need to be around 1.5 your bw, and be able to squat 60% of your bw 5 times in around 5 seconds before you do any high impact plyos.

If you start plyos before you can get around these numbers..

1. You won't be able to do the exercise as designed, you won't get any results, and you'll waste your time.
2. You're going to do more harm than good.

I hope you're trolling, right? Of course he can do plyometrics at whatever bodyweight he's at. They're bodyweight exercises for a reason. The point is to get conditioning from them, not build strength or mass or whatever you're inferring.

@hansomreiste:

It's awesome that you're so ambitious. Keep it up. I'd say do plyometrics as part of conditioning rounds after your weightlifting sessions. First few weeks, practice proper form and technique. After you've done this for a while you can step up the intensity of your conditioning rounds - great way to get endurance, too!

[jonmd123]

I hope you're trolling, right? Of course he can do plyometrics at whatever bodyweight he's at. They're bodyweight exercises for a reason. The point is to get conditioning from them, not build strength or mass or whatever you're inferring.

@hansomreiste:

It's awesome that you're so ambitious. Keep it up. I'd say do plyometrics as part of conditioning rounds after your weightlifting sessions. First few weeks, practice proper form and technique. After you've done this for a while you can step up the intensity of your conditioning rounds - great way to get endurance, too!

Trolling? Maybe you should read my post. Second, maybe you should do some research on what a plyometric is.

...I'll give you a hint. They have nothing to do with increasing your endurance.

[NJLife]

I hope you're trolling, right? Of course he can do plyometrics at whatever bodyweight he's at. They're bodyweight exercises for a reason. The point is to get conditioning from them, not build strength or mass or whatever you're inferring.

@hansomreiste:

It's awesome that you're so ambitious. Keep it up. I'd say do plyometrics as part of conditioning rounds after your weightlifting sessions. First few weeks, practice proper form and technique. After you've done this for a while you can step up the intensity of your conditioning rounds - great way to get endurance, too!

He should get his starting strength up first. Then move on to plyos which will teach his body to use that starting strength and transform it into more "explosive" ability.

what point would it be if u cant even squat your body weight? so u can weakly jump an inch? or get to 1.5-2x your body weight then teach it to move it and explode up jumping 35 inches???!

[hansomreiste]

Thanks a lot for the information. Even though we can never speak of something certain, it seems to me that before starting to plyometrics, I should at least follow a good training program for a few months to get strong. And, as most of you claim that plyo doesn't make me any stronger, now my main priority is to get more and more stronger. Explosiveness could only work when I can release a nice amount of power, I guess.

But, here is one problem with my SL5x5 program: sadly, I have a skew on my backbone, which is claimed to be a "minor" one by the doctor before x-rays. Still, I didn't hand the result to him but I guess I will probably need to stay away from weightlifting as most coaches around me strictly recommends like, "NEVER squat if you have any little pain with your back"...

Considering I am training for hockey, what kind of work would replace a program like SL5x5? Any other advice for that? Well, being unable to squat is a serious disadvantage but I have time and motivation to catch it up.

@Ggrodgers: Thank you for your nice words. Every word told here will be useful for me and I am gonna have benefit from them, instead of sitting on my couch. That's for sure. I am highly motivated and that will go like this.

[jonmd123]

Thanks a lot for the information. Even though we can never speak of something certain, it seems to me that before starting to plyometrics, I should at least follow a good training program for a few months to get strong. And, as most of you claim that plyo doesn't make me any stronger, now my main priority is to get more and more stronger. Explosiveness could only work when I can release a nice amount of power, I guess.

But, here is one problem with my SL5x5 program: sadly, I have a skew on my backbone, which is claimed to be a "minor" one by the doctor before x-rays. Still, I didn't hand the result to him but I guess I will probably need to stay away from weightlifting as most coaches around me strictly recommends like, "NEVER squat if you have any little pain with your back"...

Considering I am training for hockey, what kind of work would replace a program like SL5x5? Any other advice for that? Well, being unable to squat is a serious disadvantage but I have time and motivation to catch it up.

@Ggrodgers: Thank you for your nice words. Every word told here will be useful for me and I am gonna have benefit from them, instead of sitting on my couch. That's for sure. I am highly motivated and that will go like this.

You should be fine doing front squat. If that is an issue try doing elevated split squats. Avoiding the weightroom will only make your back issue worse.

Assuming we are talking a "minor" skew like you said.

[hansomreiste]

You should be fine doing front squat. If that is an issue try doing elevated split squats. Avoiding the weightroom will only make your back issue worse.

Assuming we are talking a "minor" skew like you said.

Yes yes, he said nothing was serious about it and when I asked him like, "I will start training very soon and I am scared that this skew may hurt me, how to get rid of this?", he answered me saying "Well, you will do sports".

After getting my x-ray results, I will also speak to him and if needed, ask here for further information. I am also thinking of posting a photo of myself on the position of squat, just to see if I am doing it right. (Currently I am out of town and it may take some time to find a nice & cheap gym in my area, that's why I am bothering the forum so much nowadays)

Front squat is replacement for SL5x5? I mean, doing it and just the other parts of program would be still OK for me, without any or minor disadvantage?

[Ggrodgers]

Trolling? Maybe you should read my post. Second, maybe you should do some research on what a plyometric is.

...I'll give you a hint. They have nothing to do with increasing your endurance.

First, this is what you wrote, and I quote:

'You won't be able to do the exercise as designed, you won't get any results, and you'll waste your time.'

First, you're saying that by doing plyometrics he'll be wasting his time and won't be seeing his results. Well this statement is false. But ok, sure, I'm guessing all those plyometrics you do as a special forces are all for nothing?

Second, yes I do know what plyometrics are. If you're a low weight, endurance athlete (like myself) you benefit in terms of power-endurance from doing 12-20 box jumps, followed by 1 minute rope tosses and 30 secs medicine ball twists (repeat). They significantly improved my endurance.

Plyometrics are standard exercises for athletes, regardless of your weight or strength. THEY'RE NOT A WASTE OF TIME.

[Ggrodgers]

Furthermore, I just wanna ask who came up with this arbitrary number? 'You need to be around 1.5 your bw, and be able to squat 60% of your bw 5 times in around 5 seconds before you do any high impact plyos.'

[jonmd123]

Furthermore, I just wanna ask who came up with this arbitrary number? 'You need to be around 1.5 your bw, and be able to squat 60% of your bw 5 times in around 5 seconds before you do any high impact plyos.'

Ever heard of an association called the NSCA?

Again, I urge you to do more research on what a plyometric is before you offer advice.

I'll break it down for you. Plyos are used for the purpose of increasing the speed of force production. From the NSCA, "Plyometric exercise refers to those activities that enable a muscle to reach maximal force in the shortest possible time...plyometric is a quick, powerful movement using a prestretch, or countermovement, that involves the SSC."

Again from the NSCA, "Drills should not be thought of as a cardiorespiratory conditioning exercises but as power training."

Need more info?

"For lower body plyometrics, the athlete's 1RM squat should be AT LEAST 1.5 times his or her body weight...For lower body plyometrics, the athlete should be able to perform five repetitions of the squat with 60% body weight in 5 seconds or less."

I could spend all morning explaining the reasoning for these numbers, but you can just take their word for it. If you want to do "plyometrics" for endurance, go ahead but don't bring that junk into this forum where athletes are actually trying to improve themselves.

Now run along...

[Ggrodgers]

Ever heard of an association called the NSCA?

Again, I urge you to do more research on what a plyometric is before you offer advice.

I'll break it down for you. Plyos are used for the purpose of increasing the speed of force production. From the NSCA, "Plyometric exercise refers to those activities that enable a muscle to reach maximal force in the shortest possible time...plyometric is a quick, powerful movement using a prestretch, or countermovement, that involves the SSC."

Again from the NSCA, "Drills should not be thought of as a cardiorespiratory conditioning exercises but as power training."

Need more info?

"For lower body plyometrics, the athlete's 1RM squat should be AT LEAST 1.5 times his or her body weight...For lower body plyometrics, the athlete should be able to perform five repetitions of the squat with 60% body weight in 5 seconds or less."

I could spend all morning explaining the reasoning for these numbers, but you can just take their word for it. If you want to do "plyometrics" for endurance, go ahead but don't bring that junk into this forum where athletes are actually trying to improve themselves.

Now run along...

I don't take everything at face value. It's a valuable insight I've learned over the years. But, yes I see your reasoning.

My two cents: They certainly help soldiers pass through some of the toughest training camps in the world. Without following the NCSA's advice. I guess that must count for something?

*EDIT* MMA athletes also do plyometrics for conditioning. Tim Kennedy, for instance, includes them after weight lifting sessions. And according to him it accounts for his 'legendary' cardio capacity.

'Schneider breaks down Kennedy's non-MMA-specific conditioning work into 5-to-6 minute energy system development workouts after his gym training on lifting days, followed by an exhausting 20-to-25 minute metabolic conditioning circuit performed every Friday.'

Maybe you should stop being so narrow-minded when you try to come off as somewhat insightful.

[hansomreiste]

Ever heard of an association called the NSCA?

Again, I urge you to do more research on what a plyometric is before you offer advice.

I'll break it down for you. Plyos are used for the purpose of increasing the speed of force production. From the NSCA, "Plyometric exercise refers to those activities that enable a muscle to reach maximal force in the shortest possible time...plyometric is a quick, powerful movement using a prestretch, or countermovement, that involves the SSC."

Again from the NSCA, "Drills should not be thought of as a cardiorespiratory conditioning exercises but as power training."

Need more info?

"For lower body plyometrics, the athlete's 1RM squat should be AT LEAST 1.5 times his or her body weight...For lower body plyometrics, the athlete should be able to perform five repetitions of the squat with 60% body weight in 5 seconds or less."

I could spend all morning explaining the reasoning for these numbers, but you can just take their word for it. If you want to do "plyometrics" for endurance, go ahead but don't bring that junk into this forum where athletes are actually trying to improve themselves.

Now run along...

This is of course just another question anyone can speak of, but, I especially want to hear from you about this.

I found something here, a very good, detailed information about plyometrics,

(As I have only 8 posts, I am not able to post a full link, sorry) showthread.php?t=127584823

So as told here,

Plyometrics just help a person produce power in a shorter time. This is what I simply understand. To get MAXIMUM out of plyometrics, we probably need to have a good piece of muscle, that's something everyone would agree, but isn't it a bit "too much" to claim, doing plyos in the beginning would be a "waste of time" completely?

Moreover, why are we supposed to do 2-3 exercises a week? In this thread, they even say "When you have difficulty in breathing, you should stop because it means that is too much for you" but what is this? Exercise should be forcing us, am I wrong about this?

And, as a beginner, do you recommend me to add some plyometrics in my schedule, like 5x5 squat jumps on upper body days or such? Or should I really stay away from that stuff?

[jonmd123]

I don't take everything at face value. It's a valuable insight I've learned over the years. But, yes I see your reasoning.

My two cents: They certainly helped me pass through one of the toughest training camps in the world. And I didn't follow the NCSA's advice. I guess that must count for something?

*EDIT* MMA athletes also do plyometrics for conditioning. Tim Kennedy, for instance, includes them after weight lifting sessions. And according to him it accounts for his 'legendary' cardio capacity.

'Schneider breaks down Kennedy's non-MMA-specific conditioning work into 5-to-6 minute energy system development workouts after his gym training on lifting days, followed by an exhausting 20-to-25 minute metabolic conditioning circuit performed every Friday.'

Maybe you should stop being so narrow-minded when you try to come off as somewhat insightful.

Not narrow minded. Simply right and wrong; Correct and incorrect.

Just because you're doing exercises that people use for plyometrics does not mean you're doing plyometric training. You are simply using box jumps, line hops, ect. as a way to increase your HR. You might as well do sprint intervals.

PLEASE go do some research on the topic.

[jonmd123]

This is of course just another question anyone can speak of, but, I especially want to hear from you about this.

I found something here, a very good, detailed information about plyometrics,

(As I have only 8 posts, I am not able to post a full link, sorry) showthread.php?t=127584823

So as told here,

Plyometrics just help a person produce power in a shorter time. This is what I simply understand. To get MAXIMUM out of plyometrics, we probably need to have a good piece of muscle, that's something everyone would agree, but isn't it a bit "too much" to claim, doing plyos in the beginning would be a "waste of time" completely?

Moreover, why are we supposed to do 2-3 exercises a week? In this thread, they even say "When you have difficulty in breathing, you should stop because it means that is too much for you" but what is this? Exercise should be forcing us, am I wrong about this?

And, as a beginner, do you recommend me to add some plyometrics in my schedule, like 5x5 squat jumps on upper body days or such? Or should I really stay away from that stuff?

To put it simply.

Plyos are for becoming more powerful. Before you can become powerful you need to be strong. Stick to the weights for now.

If you want to do any plyos you can do line hops or ladder drills, even though I don't really consider them plyos because they don't utilize the SSC.

[Ggrodgers]

Not narrow minded. Simply right and wrong; Correct and incorrect.

Just because you're doing exercises that people use for plyometrics does not mean you're doing plyometric training. You are simply using box jumps, line hops, ect. as a way to increase your HR. You might as well do sprint intervals.

PLEASE go do some research on the topic.

Hahaha. Supertroll. Good times.

I'll tell all special ops and Tim Kennedy to drop plyometrics from their workouts because, according to you, they're a waste of time and you don't reap any benefits from them except for power-explosiveness.

[jonmd123]

Hahaha. Supertroll. Good times.

I'll tell the Swedish Armed Forces and Tim Kennedy to drop plyometrics from their workouts because, according to you, they're a waste of time and you don't reap any benefits from them except for power-explosiveness.

Yes, please do.

A barbell squat and sitting on the toilet are the same movement. Does that mean taking a **** is strength training?

[Ggrodgers]

Yes, please do.

A barbell squat and sitting on the toilet are the same movement. Does that mean taking a **** is strength training?

It does if you take a **** with a 150 kg barbell on a regular basis.

[jonmd123]

It does if you take a **** with a 150 kg barbell on a regular basis.

Lol, thanks for proving my point.

[Ggrodgers]

Lol, thanks for proving my point.

Did you even have a point? Nice trolling though. Got a bit wearisome after a while. All in all, still pretty good.

[azstrengthcoach]

Trolling? Maybe you should read my post. Second, maybe you should do some research on what a plyometric is.

...I'll give you a hint. They have nothing to do with increasing your endurance.

There is no need to squat 1.5 bodyweight to start plyos. NFL players do lots of plyo work do you think they all squat 600-700lbs?

[jonmd123]

There is no need to squat 1.5 bodyweight to start plyos. NFL players do lots of plyo work do you think they all squat 600-700lbs?

1.5 is simply a guideline not a rule. Also, intensity levels vary greatly with plyos. Some can be completed with a 1x bw squat while some advanced plyos such as 1-legged depth jumps, the athlete should be closer to 2x bw.

A majority of NFL players have squats well over 1.5 their bw, they just rarely load that much.

Surely an AZ Strength Coach would know this?

[azstrengthcoach]

1.5 is simply a guideline not a rule. Also, intensity levels vary greatly with plyos. Some can be completed with a 1x bw squat while some advanced plyos such as 1-legged depth jumps, the athlete should be closer to 2x bw.

A majority of NFL players have squats well over 1.5 their bw, they just rarely load that much.

Surely an AZ Strength Coach would know this?

The 1.5 bw is an outdated guideline. Plyo's will actually help you get to a 1.5+ squat. Yes many do have a 1.5 but not all. Some linemen are nearly 400lbs so according to those outdated guidelines an O linemen shouldn't do any plyos unless he's squatting nearly 600lbs. It is true the stronger you are the more advanced of plyos you can do, but lots of athletes like sprinters do very advanced plyos without squatting 1.5bw

[jonmd123]

The 1.5 bw is an outdated guideline. Plyo's will actually help you get to a 1.5+ squat. Yes many do have a 1.5 but not all. Some linemen are nearly 400lbs so according to those outdated guidelines an O linemen shouldn't do any plyos unless he's squatting nearly 600lbs. It is true the stronger you are the more advanced of plyos you can do, but lots of athletes like sprinters do very advanced plyos without squatting 1.5bw

Fist off, I would venture to say that around 95% of NFL players squat at least 1.5 bw (including kickers and qbs). Second, plyo do little for improving max strength.

Again, 1.5 is a guideline for coaches, and no it is not outdated. Ultimately it comes down to whether an athlete can complete the exercise properly or not. If a chubby kid can't even squat a little more than his bw he has no reason to be jumping off a box.

A 400lb lineman would do very little plyo work. The force on his legs from a broad jump or depth jump would be thousands of pounds.

I apologize to any kids trying to get some real information in this thread.

[azstrengthcoach]

Fist off, I would venture to say that around 95% of NFL players squat at least 1.5 bw (including kickers and qbs). Second, plyo do little for improving max strength.

Again, 1.5 is a guideline for coaches, and no it is not outdated. Ultimately it comes down to whether an athlete can complete the exercise properly or not. If a chubby kid can't even squat a little more than his bw he has no reason to be jumping off a box.

A 400lb lineman would do very little plyo work. The force on his legs from a broad jump or depth jump would be thousands of pounds.

I apologize to any kids trying to get some real information in this thread.

So powerlifters do plyometrics for no reason then since they don't help improve peak force production? Because nearly every elite powerlifting club utilizes heavy plyometrics work to maximize peak lifts. Yes O line men do plyometrics I know this because I've seen NFL played off season lifting, and all little kids do plyometrics it's called jumping off of playground equipment

[hansomreiste]

Here is another question where I think all experts can come to a conclusion together: when should plyos be done after sessions?

I was planning to start SL5x5 which means just squat and squat more and more, but because of a skew on my back, I might try another program. A gym instructor has prepared it for me but I will see it tomorrow. Even though it is without squat, it should be about having stronger legs and some upper body.

So, on what days and in which way should I do it as a beginner? Suppose we have leg days and upper body days.

[azstrengthcoach]

It depends on who you ask, some experts say at the beginning of a workout some say at the end.

[hansomreiste]

Anyone reading this post is free to share their ideas, of course. Even though I prefer something scientifically proven, any idea, as I said, is welcome.

I am a beginner and I think doing plyos after the workout and even in off days would be the best... Plyos are supposed to make me really tired I guess. Doing them before the workout would lower my "improving" performance, which is really important to me now. But doing them after workout also prevents me from using my all energy efficiently. Maybe I should follow a good diet and have 4 days of workout, one of them including plyos, and one "off-plyo day" supported with sprints and table tennis and 2 full days of recovery. Would that work for me?