If NO ONE went to church

[Black_Spit]

Until they were given the choice to go at 18 years old, would religion still dominate the earth?

edit: I know it sounds like a ridiculous question, but, answer anyway, lol.

[Fidelis]

no.

[Black_Spit]

no.

Well, why not?

[ballsoftitanium]

No.

Religion depends on the ability of parents to indoctrinate their children early in life to instill fear of hell and a desire for heaven.

If there were no churches it would make it that much easier to avoid the preachers who tell the lies that make parents want to try to set their kids on the "straight and narrow".

If we were brought up by parents who taught us to question things instead of accepting them just because some "authority" figure told us to we would scoff at any of the ridiculous things written in the bible, just as adults scoff at anyone who proposes that goblins or trolls really exist.

[Vitalshok44]

Overt religion followed blindly is pointless

[Vitalshok44]

No.

Religion depends on the ability of parents to indoctrinate their children early in life to instill fear of hell and a desire for heaven.

If there were no churches it would make it that much easier to avoid the preachers who tell the lies that make parents want to try to set their kids on the "straight and narrow".

If we were brought up by parents who taught us to question things instead of accepting them just because some "authority" figure told us to we would scoff at any of the ridiculous things written in the bible, just as adults scoff at anyone who proposes that goblins or trolls really exist.

Wisdom in the red unbelievable, adherents to sain ideologies sir will get you back in the green

[Violator009]

No.

Religion depends on the ability of parents to indoctrinate their children early in life to instill fear of hell and a desire for heaven.

NO...

[Melkor]

Until they were given the choice to go at 18 years old, would religion still dominate the earth?

edit: I know it sounds like a ridiculous question, but, answer anyway, lol.

I agree, I doubt that it would. For the same reason that if you told a kid that he could piss where-ever he wanted in your house and then when he was 18 tried to make him walk to the bathroom and do it. Religion requires self-control (like it or not, you must agree that is a true statement), and the habits and personality traits a person develops as he grows up determine a great deal of what type of person he will be when he is old. Once you are 18 there are many things that are difficult to change. Religion would still exist for sure, but it wouldn't be prevalent like it is now. Religion, culture, and many other things are more easily lived/accepted when you learn them as a child.

[ballsoftitanium]

Wisdom in the red unbelievable, adherents to sain ideologies sir will get you back in the green

Don't judge a man but the colour of his dots.

[Melkor]

No.

Religion depends on the ability of parents to indoctrinate their children early in life to instill fear of hell and a desire for heaven.

If there were no churches it would make it that much easier to avoid the preachers who tell the lies that make parents want to try to set their kids on the "straight and narrow".

If we were brought up by parents who taught us to question things instead of accepting them just because some "authority" figure told us to we would scoff at any of the ridiculous things written in the bible, just as adults scoff at anyone who proposes that goblins or trolls really exist.

My kids don't do anything out of fear of hell etc. Mormons don't even believe in hell. My kids are taught to do what's right because it's the right thing to do, and that it makes them better people. Along with that is the promise that through Christ's atonement we will be able to live with God as a family forever. So many atheists have this bizarrely skewed concept of what religion really is (partly because so many religious people nowadays have the same problem I suppose).

[Black_Spit]

Religion, culture, and many other things are more easily lived/accepted when you learn them as a child.

Ok, I believe that this sums up what I'm saying the best. I'm not trying to chop up what you said... just trying to be organized.

Like I said in another thread, I do not believe that religious folks are any less intelligent, but, I believe that by 'softening the blow,' so to speak, when they are young, it makes these types of stories that you get from religion easier to buy. I just can't accept that someone intelligent(I include you in this) would hear these stories as an adult, and believe them after learning about the world first.

That was pretty much the point of the question.

[LunicaAshes]

Ok, I believe that this sums up what I'm saying the best. I'm not trying to chop up what you said... just trying to be organized.

Like I said in another thread, I do not believe that religious folks are any less intelligent, but, I believe that by 'softening the blow,' so to speak, when they are young, it makes these types of stories that you get from religion easier to buy. I just can't accept that someone intelligent(I include you in this) would hear these stories as an adult, and believe them after learning about the world first.

That was pretty much the point of the question.

I agree. I know how much theists hate this analogy, but just look at Santa Claus. Kids eat that **** right up. Try to tell an adult the story when they've never heard it, then try to get them to believe it's real... it just wouldn't fly.

[ballsoftitanium]

My kids don't do anything out of fear of hell etc. Mormons don't even believe in hell. My kids are taught to do what's right because it's the right thing to do, and that it makes them better people. Along with that is the promise that through Christ's atonement we will be able to live with God as a family forever. So many atheists have this bizarrely skewed concept of what religion really is (partly because so many religious people nowadays have the same problem I suppose).

Even if a religion doesn't threaten anyone with fire or brimstone they all promise something desirable to those who believe and this gives people a REASON to believe.

Anyway, that wasn't even my point, what i was really driving at with that post was that children are very gullible, you can tell them almost any old story and chances are they will believe you if they trust you (sometimes they will even if they don't trust you), evolution has designed them to listen to their elders, we've survived long enough to give birth to them so i guess they know, on some unconscious level, that it would be a good idea to take heed when we speak.

Eventually they grow out of this phase, they start too look at things critically and think for themselves but often by the time this starts happening the damage is already done, religion has extended it's roots deep into the psyche of the young man or woman and they are afraid to let go of it.

Even though they know there is no evidence to support their point of view they hold fast to it, when asked why, in the face of a blatant lack of evidence, they cite reasons like "faith" and "hope", they continue to believe because they WANT to believe, it makes them feel good to believe and that is why they do it.

Now i'm not saying that wanting to believe in something bigger than you is a BAD thing but when you accept things without evidence simply because they tickle your fancy you are only fooling yourself.

[Melkor]

I'm not going to try to argue you into believing in God. I can understand why people don't. However, to make the blanket statement that people have no reason to believe in God is arrogant and misinformed, balls. You really think that millions of people throughout the ages have dedicated their lives to something, including dying horribly painful deaths sometimes, with no reason whatsoever? If you ask someone who is deeply religious why they are they can almost always give you a very good reason why. Whether or not it is a good reason for YOU is a different matter, but no one (that I know of anyway) is religious merely for something to do on the weekends.

Black_spit, I think a lot of the problem stems from two things: 1) atheists tend to have pretty serious misunderstandings of religion and religious people (not all, many of them have had religious experience previously). 2) Religion itself has been usurped by people that have dumbed it down, misunderstood critical parts of it, and made it into some kind of new-age therapy, hippie type feel good movement.Not all religion is the Ned Flanders style, and my religion for example is both mentally and spiritually fulfilling. I could not accept a religion that merely said "just trust us". No, there is no scientific evidence of God, but there IS evidence to be had. It involved SPIRITUAL things, rather than physical. I can understand people not accepting that, but at the same time, I think they should have the same decency in accepting those that do imo. Thanks to you for doing so.

[Dr.Lecter]

Most teenagers under 18 do not go to Church anyway, and do not start going until they become older and wiser.

[Black_Spit]

Most teenagers under 18 do not go to Church anyway, and do not start going until they become older and wiser.

Oh yeah?

Please provide some proof.

[Dr.Lecter]

Oh yeah?

Please provide some proof.

Its evidence from my experiences and observations.

[Black_Spit]

Its evidence from my experiences and observations.

Ah, I see.

Forgive me if I ask for something a little more concrete. Churches are full of young people under the age of 18.

[Melkor]

Ah, I see.

Forgive me if I ask for something a little more concrete. Churches are full of young people under the age of 18.

Yeah, I agree with Black_Spit on this one. I see lots of kids at my church. LOTS of kids (Mormon ).

[LunicaAshes]

Its evidence from my experiences and observations.

So why are churches filled with Sunday school classes, and how can private religious schools stand to pay their bills?

[Melkor]

So why are churches filled with Sunday school classes, and how can private religious schools stand to pay their bills?

Midgets.

[ballsoftitanium]

I'm not going to try to argue you into believing in God. I can understand why people don't. However, to make the blanket statement that people have no reason to believe in God is arrogant and misinformed, balls. You really think that millions of people throughout the ages have dedicated their lives to something, including dying horribly painful deaths sometimes, with no reason whatsoever? If you ask someone who is deeply religious why they are they can almost always give you a very good reason why. Whether or not it is a good reason for YOU is a different matter, but no one (that I know of anyway) is religious merely for something to do on the weekends.

So why do you believe in god Melkor?

[hokiebird]

Until they were given the choice to go at 18 years old, would religion still dominate the earth?

edit: I know it sounds like a ridiculous question, but, answer anyway, lol.

No, i dont think it would.. but I do think God would still be in control though.

[LunicaAshes]

So if these religions and their God are the "truth," why wouldn't they still dominate if we didn't get people while they were at their most impressionable?

As an adult, I can still learn new truths every day, and enjoy doing so both in college and on my own. It's not that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

So why would all these people only be religious if they are caught young, if it's really the truth?

[Black_Spit]

So if these religions and their God are the "truth," why wouldn't they still dominate if we didn't get people while they were at their most impressionable?

There it is.

If god were so magnificent, then could he not reach adults as easily as children?

[Melkor]

So why do you believe in god Melkor?

To piss you off.

So if these religions and their God are the "truth," why wouldn't they still dominate if we didn't get people while they were at their most impressionable?

As an adult, I can still learn new truths every day, and enjoy doing so both in college and on my own. It's not that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

So why would all these people only be religious if they are caught young, if it's really the truth?

For the same reason that people teach their children anything else when they are young. Young people learn more easily, and habits formed in youth last.

I'm sure you are aware of "feral children", being in your field. Take that concept and apply it to religion, that might help you understand.

[bmy-]

Yeah, I agree with Black_Spit on this one. I see lots of kids at my church. LOTS of kids (Mormon ).

I'm not gonna lie it made me lol. I see families pumping out 5-6 kids and I think to myself (who the heck needs missionaries? we have factories!)



I'm no father yet.. but I do plan on teaching my children to think for themselves. Question everything. If what you believe in withstands the test.. you have my blessings in believing it.

[LunicaAshes]

To piss you off.


For the same reason that people teach their children anything else when they are young. Young people learn more easily, and habits formed in youth last.

I'm sure you are aware of "feral children", being in your field. Take that concept and apply it to religion, that might help you understand.

But shouldn't god be beyond that? If he's some great, huge, powerful thing, shouldn't he be more powerful than ... say... bathroom manners?

Kids know about falling when they are very young, though they don't understand physics until far later. They don't have to have the ideas ingrained at a young age because THEY MAKE SENSE. God doesn't make sense, so if you don't get on the band wagon early, you get left behind.

If god is loving and powerful and all that jazz, he'd make himself known without the need to manipulate and mold small minds.

[Macrobolic]

Until they were given the choice to go at 18 years old, would religion still dominate the earth?

edit: I know it sounds like a ridiculous question, but, answer anyway, lol.

A very interesting question indeed!

...God doesn't make sense...

How does God not make sense? Please expand...

...If god is loving and powerful and all that jazz, he'd make himself known without the need to manipulate and mold small minds.

However, Sheduma, this would completely eradicate the need for faith. One of the tenets of my church is that this life is a test, to see if we will follow God's commandments and do His will. If we were able to see god, all of us, what would this life be about? It would be pretty much pointless as there is no test of your faith.

[LunicaAshes]

How does God not make sense? Please expand...

Occam's razor. The idea of a god goes against this, as no god is needed.

However, Sheduma, this would completely eradicate the need for faith. One of the tenets of my church is that this life is a test, to see if we will follow God's commandments and do His will. If we were able to see god, all of us, what would this life be about? It would be pretty much pointless as there is no test of your faith.

My life is as far from pointless as it gets, and I have no faith in any deity. Why do you need faith? Why would a loving god require that you not see him, but believe anyhow, so that the rest of us are left without no matter how hard we may have tried?