Gregg Avedon PUSH/PULL

[JRX]

Anybody looked at this guys advice on routines, he seems to really know his stuff however it goes against everything you guys say in here about overtraining and stuff. I really want to kick my own ass in the gym but all the workouts i see posted on here refer to this as overtraining and overstressing of the CNS too much. Can we ever win.

Heres the workoutr one of them

Below is a push/pull routine similar to the one he used:

PUSH DAY - PYRAMID STYLE - MONDAY & THURSDAY

CHEST
Bench Press 5 sets Pyramid weight
Incline Bench Press 5 sets Pyramid weight
Dumbbell Bench (Incline or Flat) 3 sets Pyramid weight
Dumbbell Fly's (Incline or Flat) 3 sets Pyramid weight
SHOULDERS
Military Press 5 sets Pyramid weight
Upright Rows 5 sets Pyramid weight
Lateral Fly Machine 3 sets Pyramid weight
3 Tier Dumbbell Fly's (See Below or "Stratum Fly's") 3 sets Same weight
TRICEPS
Lying Down Extensions 5 sets Pyramid weight
Standing Cable Pushdowns 5 sets Pyramid weight
Standing Cable Reverse Extensions 3 sets Pyramid weight
Lying Dumbbell Extensions 3 sets Pyramid weight

*Note: Anytime it is specified that you do 3 sets instead of 5 sets, start with the usual 10 to 12 reps on the first set. Then the following two sets will descend from there. In other words, for set 2 you’ll do 8 reps, and for set 3 you’ll do 6 reps.

PULL DAY - PYRAMID STYLE - TUESDAY & FRIDAY

LEGS
Squats 5 sets Pyramid weight
Leg Press 5 sets Pyramid weight
Leg Extensions 3 sets Pyramid weight
Leg Curls - Machine 1 5 sets Pyramid weight
Leg Curls - Machine 2 5 sets Pyramid weight
Lunges (See below) 3 sets Same weight
Calf Raises 5 sets Pyramid weight
BACK
Lat Pulldowns 5 sets Pyramid weight
Bent Over Rows 5 sets Pyramid weight
T-Bar Rows Close or Wide Grip 3 sets Pyramid weight
Dumbbell One Arm Rows 3 sets Same weight
BICEPS
Standing Olympic Bar Curls 5 sets Pyramid weight
Seated Dumbbell Curls 5 sets Pyramid weight
Preacher Curls 3 sets Pyramid weight
Concentration Curls 3 sets Same weight

Granted this is for the advanced, but is overtraining really just an excuse for people to not put 100% effort in.
I really want to train like an animal, and all the people i see in magazines not just flex and m&f but mens health and others you read interviews and watch them on tv, interviews with their trainers. They kick theyre asses big time in the gym. What you put in is what you get out. Provided i have adequate nutrition for these kind of workouts. What would the problem be?
Is everyone just afraid to train hard now incase they overtrain??

Check out his website for other workouts he suggests that arent as high in workload. www.greggavedon.com

[RipStone]

Greg Avedon can use this routine and not overtrain cus his genetics are differernt than you and I. Also, the routines in Flex, etc are for guys who are using gear which makes their recovery cabability much greater than people who are natural lifters.

[JRX]

No i get that. Well how do you or i know that i don't have the genetics? I was refering not only to the routines in flex but as i said the hollywood trainers and everywhere else. Look at Colin Farrell amongst all other movie stars they do not all have superb genetics, the guy who played spiderman has a pretty average frame nothing to write home about. Yet he was trained to the max almost each and every workout. Obviously with adequate rest. Now how can somebody on an online forum know that I or anyone else on the forum does not have these genetics. Surely its just trial and error to see what works for each individual. I found higher volume training to be fine, even when i was on a severe calorific restriction basically being a nob about going jogging every morning because of my mates in the marines.
Ripstone how do you know that i do not have the genetics??

[bskp]

If you don't go to complete failure it won't make you overtrain. Maybe overreaching, but not overtraining.

[xenithon]

JRX - you're absolutely right. Ignore RipStone, what does he know . Follow that routine to the T, and report back in 8 weeks on your progress (muscle gained, rep max increases etc.). It will be most interesting. After all, if it is in M&F, Flex and on TV then it has to be brilliant after all.

[xenithon]

PS. Rip - I'd give up now , the cause was lost before it started

[Cass]

In my opinion, people are so worried about overtraining that they aren't even training anymore. I go to the gym and only work one muscle group a day, and I'm there for 2 hrs. If you don't train hard you arent going to grow. People are just wimping out. I say hit it hard, and then rest hard man. You can't overtrain if you get plenty of rest in between workouts of the same muscle.

[RipStone]

PS. Rip - I'd give up now , the cause was lost before it started

(speechless)

[JRX]

I didnt say that specific routine was in flex and all the other magazines. I was talking about frequency and training hard in general. That was just an example. Yes I admit thats the sort of routine that a gym instructor would give you that contains every possible exercise he/she knows. All as i am saying is that the whole idea of working out has been totally misunderstood, and people are now too afraid to put any effort in without fear of OVERTRAINING. Im pretty sure an athletic 18 year old with proper rest and adequate nutrition, sports recovery drinks etc. Can gain mass without doing rediculously non labour intensive workout programs, which have you working out for 20 mins and then leaving.
I am putting this arguement forward not as my opinion but purely for speculative reasons. I am neither an advocate of extreme high frequency high volume training or extremely low volume training. I just would enjoy an educated discussion between the pros and cons of each.

Periodization seems to be the best route I can see. Where for perhaps 2 weeks a month you train at absolute maximum capacity and bring muscles to exhaustion. Couple this with active recovery weeks. Or maybe a strength/power/agility phase. Maybe incorperate microcycles. I am currently experimenting with a conjugate split program which i will stick with for a few months and see what results i gleem from this.

It goes as follows:

Mon:Upper strength
Tue:Lower Hypertrophy
Wedff/cardio
Thurs:Upper Hypertrophy
Lower strength Either fri or sat

80-90% compound movements with a few isolation exercises thrown in.

Maybe the Chinese are right with theyre Ying/Yang balance idea.

[JRX]

I like this advice you gave about upper/lower splits for example:

"Most strength atheltes, besides BBers, use upper/lower body splits or full body routine. So to ask if anyone has had any success with them, I think the answer is very clear if you look at athletes like football players, olympic lifters, and powerlifters and the results they get.

Keep in mind that a lot of lifters don't understand how frequency has a lot to do with volume and intensity. You can train a muscle mutiple times a week and grow, granted you don't consistently train to failure on each set and your volume is relatively low for each workout. That way you can recover faster and train a muscle again sooner.

For example, consdier an upper/lower split where you train a muscle 2x a week, like the first split you proposed. If you train chest on monday you might do 4 sets of bench press taking each set 1-2 reps short of failure. The you train chest 3 days later on thursday doing 3 sets incline DB press and 2 sets of dips(again, not going to failure). For the weel you did 9 sets of bench press. But, if you trained chest just 1x a week you might do 9 sets on just one day. The total volume for the week is the same, but volume must be lowered and you must not train to faulire so you can train a muscle more frequently"

You are totally right in my opinion.

What would you consider to be a reasonable setxrep total for each session in an upper lower split. How many exercises? With the routine i have devised for myself i have included supersetting opposing muscle groups ie chest with back with same grip width and same incline. Using 2 exercises each 5 sets of each exercise, for the strength training part 4-6 reps. Then one isolation exercise in the hypertrophy microcycle utilitzing predominantly 6-8 rep range with 3 sets, 1 warmup set lighter weight.

[xenithon]

Well, at least that post shows a bit more maturity and a better attitude. Don't forget we are here to help, and RipStone is just about as good as they get when it comes to that (second only to me ).

His post was very much to the point, as all too often people come in here with crazy routines (ones which makes yours look like a HIT routine), and on top of that they have little experience, no proper diet plan, no comprehension of the words 'rest' and 'overtrained' let alone 'periodization'. Thus it is better to start trying to help someone by airing on the side of caution and assuming that those issues are not going to be fully taken care of and work our way from there.

We could help much better if you gave us some further info with regards to stats, experience, goals, and auxiliary plans (things surrounding training such as diet, rest etc.). We can then do our best to tweak it to be as optimum as can be (although the absolute optimum will only be found by you with lots of trial and error).

Cheers,
X

[xenithon]

Right, I see you posted again while I was typing a reply

Post up your exact current routine - it will make it easier to work through and tweak.

Until then,
Ciao

[RipStone]

JRX- I see where you are coming from now. Sorry to say this, but before I thought you were one of those people who wanted to do (for example) Brad Pitt's workout cus I wanna look like him in "Fight Club". Whatever...

I actually used a really similar 4 day split for 10 weeks and made very good gains with it. Here is the link to the program....

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...light=ripstone

[JRX]

Wow thanks alot. I now see where all you guys are coming from. It did look like i was trying to start a big argument didn't it.

Well im not really that new to the bodybuilding game. Been reading and researching for quite a while. About 2 years i have been going to the gym, tried to get serious but either one thing was correct ie diet then my training was wrong or vice versa.

Im 17, 18 tomorrow. I am starting a new gym tomorrow the best one in town wahey. So i was researching many different routines. My favourite are by a writer called Chad Waterbury. I like his training techniques and ideas. So i have tried to incorperate them into the routine as much as possible.

Monday:Upper Strength
Superset for 5 sets (one of which warmup)
Bench press: 4-6 reps
Pendlay row:4-6 reps
Military press 4-6 reps
Chins
(same set rep scheme)
Bicep curls (barbell) 5 sets 4-6
Best tricep mass builder either skull crushers or close grip bench 4-6 or weighted dips (which will also target chest)

Tuesday: Lower Hypertrophy 5 sets 8-12 reps (not looking for mass as i already have built up legs to what mass i want which is why leg extension is there)

Squats
Leg Ext
Calf raises (seated)
Leg curl
Abs (working lower/upper/obliques)

Thursday: Upper Hypertrophy Sets 3-4 reps 6-8

DB Press
Seated row
Military press
Triset of strantum flys front raises/lat raises/rear delt flyes
Lying bicep curls
Tricep pushdown (rope)

Fri or Sat Lower strength 6-8 reps 5 sets one warmup maybe 2 for deadlift

Squats
Leg extension
Good Mornings
Deadlift (alternate between romanian and sl and standard)
Abs (weighted obliques, upper, lower)

HIIT 2-3 times per week just to keep any fat in check.

Im 5"8 approx and around 65Kg.

[Canadian Iron]

Im 17, 18 tomorrow. I am starting a new gym tomorrow the best one in town wahey. So i was researching many different routines. My favourite are by a writer called Chad Waterbury. I like his training techniques and ideas. So i have tried to incorperate them into the routine as much as possible.

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6316

[RipStone]

Happy B-day

CW's routines are great, but IMO dont f*** with them too much. Do them as they Chad writes them and if you need to adjust the volume a little(usally people have to lower it do it the higher frequnecy methods Chad prescribes).

Some good progams of his are "total- body training", "lift fast, get big", "the waterbury method" and "10x3". Again, do one of these programs basiclly as he says to do them. He's the one with all the exercise degrees so listen to the man, lol!

[VHD]

Gregg Avedon has an amazing physique. He's not too big and not too small. He said in photo shoots for Men's Health mag. he only weighs around 190ish. Than when he's not in cover model shoot around 205-210 I believe it was. He said he can't get too big because he's a fitness/fashion model. He said he would love to be able to get bigger, but he wouldn't be making the money he's making modeling and acting in soap opera's etc. He also said he always looks like he does on the covers that ripped almost 90% of the time, cause in his line of business he always needs to be in top shape year round all the time any given day. He's a really nice guy and I wish I had my body like his haha. That's as big as I want to be, no more. Hopefully I can reach that goal.

[Milo1974]

I am quite surprised not to find a lot more about Gregg Avedon via a search of this forum. Among the earliest things he did was International Male / Undergear, which Brian Buzzini carried me through as my primary heartthrob during the late 80s through much of the 90s. But then he got super-big with all those Men's Health covers. I think that if this forum existed 10 years before it did, there would be a lot more on him because his heyday was the 1990s (more mid and late than early) through the first half of the first decade of the 2000s. He wasn't quite my thing back in the day (TOO masculine and flinty for me - I liked Buzzini more because he had just a little "pretty" to him), plus Avedon was more ripped than I cared for, but now that I've gotten into bodybuilding these last 3 years, Avedon I now realize is a little smaller than what most people these days are looking for, although a little more the consummate perennial physique man than Buzzini who was as much model as he was bodybuilder. Oh how standards have changed since creatine, etc. But I think he was probably the definitive cover man of his time, like Grimek so many decades beforehand. I don't think Plitt and O'Hearn ever got to be any more of a real fitness model cover man than Avedon. What I would give to look like ANY of them, except that I'm about to turn 50 next month, and I am afraid that sourness and bitterness are setting in more prominently than any remaining ambition I might have.