Controversial Cutting with PSNA

[ryannic]

A food like that would be considered a combo food, and it can be used once you have a good handle on how the system works.

Say you have a food that gives you roughly 100 calories from protein and roughly 100 calories from fat. You could count that as one protein serving (100 calories) for that meal and 2 fat servings (50 calories each) for that meal.

If your meal called for 2 PPS and 6 PFS, you could use the combo food to cover your PPS calorie needs, most of your PFS calorie needs, and then add in another PFS to hit your 6 total servings for that meal.

Combo foods are little more technical, but they will work. They really aren't that plentiful, and most will be P + F foods from animals. There aren't many P + C foods out there that are split roughly 50/50 P/C.

That sounds really complicated though... Counting macros can be really simple (more simple and uncomplicated than this) but also allows the freedom to eat these 'combo' foods. It also seems like not actually counting macros leaves a lot of room for error... Have you counted calories and macros accurately before?

[2020Wellness]

That sounds really complicated though... Counting macros can be really simple (more simple and uncomplicated than this) but also allows the freedom to eat these 'combo' foods. It also seems like not actually counting macros leaves a lot of room for error... Have you counted calories and macros accurately before?

Once you actually try it, you'll see that it is FAR from complicated. You could see how simple it was to make some convenience meals in the video I posted earlier. Those were meals designed to be quick to eat and quick to make.

You can also see that I have more variety in my meals based on my photos so far. Not all my meals are shakes and almonds, as some of the members seem to think.

Counting macros isn't difficult, but I it isn't necessary either. Yes, with PSNA you can't plan on hitting your exact macro numbers, but do you think that really matters? As long as you're within the realm of your desired macro numbers, you're going to be OK, and you will be in that realm with PSNA.

In all seriousness, do you really think it matters if you hit 225g of protein one day and 275 another, while your desired target is 250g?

Also, in all seriousness, I've had plenty of people start to use PSNA and find it so much easier and worry free than using a macro counting focused approach.

In the end, to each their own, and anyone can eat however they want to. I am simply using a system that works well for me, as well as anyone else who legitimately gives it a good go. Based on that fact, how bad can it really be?

[ryannic]

Once you actually try it, you'll see that it is FAR from complicated. You could see how simple it was to make some convenience meals in the video I posted earlier. Those were meals designed to be quick to eat and quick to make.

You can also see that I have more variety in my meals based on my photos so far. Not all my meals are shakes and almonds, as some of the members seem to think.

Counting macros isn't difficult, but I it isn't necessary either. Yes, with PSNA you can't plan on hitting your exact macro numbers, but do you think that really matters? As long as you're within the realm of your desired macro numbers, you're going to be OK, and you will be in that realm with PSNA.

In all seriousness, do you really think it matters if you hit 225g of protein one day and 275 another, while your desired target is 250g?

Also, in all seriousness, I've had plenty of people start to use PSNA and find it so much easier and worry free than using a macro counting focused approach.

In the end, to each their own, and anyone can eat however they want to. I am simply using a system that works well for me, as well as anyone else who legitimately gives it a good go. Based on that fact, how bad can it really be?

'm sorry if i came across like i'm bagging your program; i was more trying to understand exactly how it works.

I guess the problem i see with it and why i think many people on this forum have no time for PSNA is this -

On these forums the level at which people prioritize nurtition in their life varies quite a lot. Being a bodybuilding forum I'm sure most people would fall somewhere between 'somewhat of a priority' and '#1 priority'. Having this in mind think about this:

People who have their diet as somewhat of a priority probably want to fit in treats (chocolate, ice cream whatever..) Your program only allows for this on specific cheat day (please correct me if i'm wrong) NOT FOR THESE PEOPLE

People who have their diet as a huge priority in their life (maybe someone competing) will want to be more accurate than your program allows for. ie. counting specific macros
NOT FOR THESE PEOPLE

Basically i see a lack of quality (foodlovers) food for the people who enjoy their food while at the same time a lack of precision for the more precise types. Having said that i can understand there would be some that fall outside of either of those groups that your program would work for. And judging by your following there are plenty on this site.

As you said 'to each their own'. Or different strokes for different folkes. Obviously this works for you and i hope your cut goes well. I'll be lurking

[Ghosting]

cereal is going to be a primary carb source -
Beef (assuming lean) is going to be the protein source and pasta is going to be the carb source. Very simple. No messing around with macros, just total calories needed from each of the two ingredients (beef and pasta) in order to hit my allotted number of servings for each of those two categories.

This is pretty much what I do. It is not nearly as efficient as logging food, but for me it comes down to being lazy. I weigh things out and keep a running total of total cals, protein, and fats. Whatever room left over I can never decide until the time comes. I always make sure I have about 100g of carbs/day.

[bbavender]

Coming from someone who has done both (counting macros and PSNA) I find that PSNA is infinitely easier to adhere to. I have a list of the carb protein and fat sources that I love with there serving sizes to get me 100, 100, and 50 cals accordingly. I then figure out my goals for total grams of each macro and make meals accordingly. No need to fret over on getting 240g of protein when I needed 250. This just allows me to love life and not have it revolve around food which it has for the past 5 years

[2020Wellness]

Coming from someone who has done both (counting macros and PSNA) I find that PSNA is infinitely easier to adhere to. I have a list of the carb protein and fat sources that I love with there serving sizes to get me 100, 100, and 50 cals accordingly. I then figure out my goals for total grams of each macro and make meals accordingly. No need to fret over on getting 240g of protein when I needed 250. This just allows me to love life and not have it revolve around food which it has for the past 5 years

Having done both myself, I fully agree. I counted macros for years. Counting calories, while keeping general protein, carb, and fat servings in mind is so much better for me.

Thanks for the post,

Ryan

[2020Wellness]

Started the day out with the usual breakfast for the time being. For those that followed my last log, I typically started out with a shake, oats, brown sugar, and walnuts. That meal is pretty calorie dense, and that isn't what I need right now.

M1 - 450 cals
PPS - Whey
PCS - Milk, Banana, Bagel

[2020Wellness]

'm sorry if i came across like i'm bagging your program; i was more trying to understand exactly how it works.

I guess the problem i see with it and why i think many people on this forum have no time for PSNA is this -

On these forums the level at which people prioritize nurtition in their life varies quite a lot. Being a bodybuilding forum I'm sure most people would fall somewhere between 'somewhat of a priority' and '#1 priority'. Having this in mind think about this:

People who have their diet as somewhat of a priority probably want to fit in treats (chocolate, ice cream whatever..) Your program only allows for this on specific cheat day (please correct me if i'm wrong) NOT FOR THESE PEOPLE
That is incorrect. I like to incorporate 3-4 controlled cheats per week. The timing of these is not based around a specific day. These are basically 'calorie for calorie' cheats. If you're replacing a 600 calorie meal, eat 600 calories of your cheat food(s).

People who have their diet as a huge priority in their life (maybe someone competing) will want to be more accurate than your program allows for. ie. counting specific macros
NOT FOR THESE PEOPLE
I had asked you a question about this, but didn't hear your answer to be honest. I asked you if it is really necessary for these people to be so exact with their macros. PSNA would not be for the type of person you described here, but are they over thinking things and being too anal perhaps?

Even if they are competing, do you really think that macro numbers that waver a bit from day to day are going to make or break their prep? I've answered your questions, I'd appreciate you answering mine.

Basically i see a lack of quality (foodlovers) food for the people who enjoy their food while at the same time a lack of precision for the more precise types. Having said that i can understand there would be some that fall outside of either of those groups that your program would work for. And judging by your following there are plenty on this site.

As you said 'to each their own'. Or different strokes for different folkes. Obviously this works for you and i hope your cut goes well. I'll be lurking

See Bold. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on my question about whether or not you feel that hitting exact macros day in and day out is really that important. Anyone else could chime in on that.

My stance: It is not that important. If you're relatively close to your desired grams of p, c, and f, you're gonna be good.

[adean1989]

My stance: It is not that important. If you're relatively close to your desired grams of p, c, and f, you're gonna be good.

I believe the majority of those who follow IIFYM do not hit their theoretical ideals each and every day. The concept remains physiological sufficiency through adequate protein/fat intake whilst carbs would ideally make up the remainder of calories for intensity/energy in the gym (emphasis on whole foods throughout).

My calculated macros are something like P: 150/F: 60/C: 375 but taking a look at my past week I've got Day 1.) 170/63/338 2.) 160/85/303 3.) 202/50/342 etc. Sure some advocates such as Cumulonimbus do hit their macros to a T but I'm fairly certain it doesn't state anywhere you must get X/Y/Z each day for results.

That said I don't completely grasp the workings of PSNA but if it allows a person to eat food they desire whilst ensuring physiological sufficiency then it is certainly a credible diet methodology. Sure it may not be what I prefer (I find tracking macros/calories a breeze) but for those whom find thinking in terms of calories/primary macro nutrient sources easier more power to them!

Now back to the shadows for me... Good luck!

[2020Wellness]

I believe the majority of those who follow IIFYM do not hit their theoretical ideals each and every day. The concept remains physiological sufficiency through adequate protein/fat intake whilst carbs would ideally make up the remainder of calories for intensity/energy in the gym (emphasis on whole foods throughout).

My calculated macros are something like P: 150/F: 60/C: 375 but taking a look at my past week I've got Day 1.) 170/63/338 2.) 160/85/303 3.) 202/50/342 etc. Sure some advocates such as Cumulonimbus do hit their macros to a T but I'm fairly certain it doesn't state anywhere you must get X/Y/Z each day for results.

That said I don't completely grasp the workings of PSNA but if it allows a person to eat food they desire whilst ensuring physiological sufficiency then it is certainly a credible diet methodology. Sure it may not be what I prefer (I find tracking macros/calories a breeze) but for those whom find thinking in terms of calories/primary macro nutrient sources easier more power to them!

Now back to the shadows for me... Good luck!

Thanks for the post sir.

Ryan

[bbavender]

The beauty of PSNA is you don't have to worry about macro totals because it's already set up for you to get in the ballpark. You know what a serving of protein is and you just eat what sounds good. It's really simple after about 2-3 days of implementing it

[FitDad327]

I definitely see PSNA being a great option for many people. I think your point about exact grams of protein not really making a difference is important. Although this is a BB site, I think a lot of us are just people trying to improve our physiques while maintaing our desired quality of life. I'm someone who easily gets bogged down in specifics so I'm looking forward to trying this. Hopefully it will help me to keep things simple. Ryan, I always appreciate your perspective. It's always based on what you has proven to be successful for you. We need more of that and less my way or the highway.

[2020Wellness]

I definitely see PSNA being a great option for many people. I think your point about exact grams of protein not really making a difference is important. Although this is a BB site, I think a lot of us are just people trying to improve our physiques while maintaing our desired quality of life. I'm someone who easily gets bogged down in specifics so I'm looking forward to trying this. Hopefully it will help me to keep things simple. Ryan, I always appreciate your perspective. It's always based on what you has proven to be successful for you. We need more of that and less my way or the highway.

Amen! Well said bud.

[2020Wellness]

Chicken breast + 400g of broccoli. That's 11g of protein from the broccoli. Do you disregard that?

Or like beef and pasta.

Do you disregard/not count the incomplete (lacking all amino acids) protein sources even when mixed with a complete protein source, either it meal in that meal or earlier/later that day?

I took the time to answer you, why not take the time to lay out your thoughts. Where you at?

[ispankmidgets]

Don't feed the trollz =]

Impossible. Trolls like to eat good food.

See Bold. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on my question about whether or not you feel that hitting exact macros day in and day out is really that important. Anyone else could chime in on that.

My stance: It is not that important. If you're relatively close to your desired grams of p, c, and f, you're gonna be good.

All kidding aside, no. Some people might set an exact macro, but I personally set a range. Such as aiming for 1.2 - 1.5 grams per pound of protein and .45 to 1 gram per pound for fats. Carbs don't really matter. As long as I hit the minimum for protein and fats I'm fine.

[2020Wellness]

Impossible. Trolls like to eat good food.



All kidding aside, no. Some people might set an exact macro, but I personally set a range. Such as aiming for 1.2 - 1.5 grams per pound of protein and .45 to 1 gram per pound for fats. Carbs don't really matter. As long as I hit the minimum for protein and fats I'm fine.

I just said, a range is fine. So you agree with me, in other words.

Questions for you:

Do you try and hit a set calorie level each day, and does that calorie level ever vary? If it varies, why?

If you try to hit a set calorie level each day, and you are hitting the same amount of protein and fat calories each day, wouldn't that force you to hit a certain number of carb calories as well. If you didn't care about carb calories, you would be hitting varying levels of total calories each day. After all, you aren't varying your protein and fats.

In terms of getting things done, staying in a surplus or a deficit is pretty crucial. Without paying attention to your carb intake, how do you ensure that your carb calories are keeping you in a deficit or putting you into a surplus?

Carbs ENTIRELY matter, unless you are solely relying on your protein and fat calories to hit your deficit or surplus. If that were the case, you'd be on a ZERO carb diet, which is highly unlikely and pretty damn restrictive.

...........and the controversy continues. I really hit the nail on the head when I named this thread!

[ispankmidgets]

I just said, a range is fine. So you agree with me, in other words. Sure.

Questions for you:

Do you try and hit a set calorie level each day, and does that calorie level ever vary? If it varies, why? I do not. You've been in my log, so you should have seen that. It varies based on my activity level for the day. Some days I'm very active, others not so much.

If you try to hit a set calorie level each day, and you are hitting the same amount of protein and fat calories each day, wouldn't that force you to hit a certain number of carb calories as well. If you didn't care about carb calories, you would be hitting varying levels of total calories each day. After all, you aren't varying your protein and fats. I am actually. The range allows me to alter it. One day protein may be higher and fats lower, and vice versa.

In terms of getting things done, staying in a surplus or a deficit is pretty crucial. Without paying attention to your carb intake, how do you ensure that your carb calories are keeping you in a deficit or putting you into a surplus? I track my activity level. I track my intake. Check it once a day before dinner. Adjust.

Carbs ENTIRELY matter, unless you are solely relying on your protein and fat calories to hit your deficit or surplus. If that were the case, you'd be on a ZERO carb diet, which is highly unlikely and pretty damn restrictive.You obviously do not understand and are over thinking this. I do not set a guideline for carbs, that just falls into place based on calories and protein and fats.

Bold.

[2020Wellness]

Bold.

I do understand, our approaches are just different. I do not adjust my total calorie intake on a daily basis, as it isn't necessary for me or the majority of people to do so. Most people are going to shoot for a total calorie level that doesn't vary from day to day, unless they are purposefully cycling calories. Even then though, each portion of the cycle is a set number.

I aim to hit 2500-3000 calories per day while on my current cut, without any variance based on that day's activity.

You look at your calorie gadget and adjust your carbs to meet your needs based on the machine's readout for the day.

We eat differently, basically the end of the story.

Peace, got a training appointment now!

[ispankmidgets]

I aim to hit 2500-3000 calories per day while on my current cut, without any variance based on that day's activity.

I was doing this, but have since changed since I got the BMF.

We eat differently, basically the end of the story.

As much as I hate to do this, this is true.

[ryannic]

See Bold. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on my question about whether or not you feel that hitting exact macros day in and day out is really that important. Anyone else could chime in on that.

My stance: It is not that important. If you're relatively close to your desired grams of p, c, and f, you're gonna be good.

On the point about your cheat meals - what if someone wants to eat more than a 500cal meal?? Last night my wife and I made pizza's and i ate about 1500cal in one sitting. Fit my macros perfectly... And the great thing is i don't consider it a cheat because macro wise (which as we know is all that matters as far as body composition) my diet was right on. I think sometimes even just incorporating 'cheat' meals can bring on the feeling of guilt in some people. What type of connotations does the word 'cheat' come along with??

On the questions about hitting specific macros I apologise i did mean to give my thoughts in my last post. For me, you and obviously alot of other people out there you're dead right - hitting specific macros 100% won't make a noticable difference as long as we're in the ballpark. I believe it's different though when you're talking about experienced bodybuilders who have learned through trial and error exactly what their body needs. The reason 'ballpark' figures works for us is because our actual targets are not likely going to be 100% optimal for us individually. Whereas an experienced bodybuilders with multiple comp preps under his/her belt is much more likely to know exactly how and what their individual body will respond to. So in short - YES i think hitting specific macros will matter for the elite ones out there. I believe like all things in life, it's the dedication to precision and attention to detail that makes all the difference in a professional arena.

No need to get so defensive mate. I have no doubt your approach works. But you need to realize that it works not because you've created a revolutionary new diet, but because you and your followers all meet minimum protein & fat requirements while still maintaining a calorie surplus or deficit (depending on desired outcome) - but in my opinion limiting yourself too much.

Like i said i hope your cut goes well. Peace brother

[2020Wellness]

On the point about your cheat meals - what if someone wants to eat more than a 500cal meal?? Last night my wife and I made pizza's and i ate about 1500cal in one sitting. Fit my macros perfectly... And the great thing is i don't consider it a cheat because macro wise (which as we know is all that matters as far as body composition) my diet was right on. I think sometimes even just incorporating 'cheat' meals can bring on the feeling of guilt in some people. What type of connotations does the word 'cheat' come along with??

On the questions about hitting specific macros I apologise i did mean to give my thoughts in my last post. For me, you and obviously alot of other people out there you're dead right - hitting specific macros 100% won't make a noticable difference as long as we're in the ballpark. I believe it's different though when you're talking about experienced bodybuilders who have learned through trial and error exactly what their body needs. The reason 'ballpark' figures works for us is because our actual targets are not likely going to be 100% optimal for us individually. Whereas an experienced bodybuilders with multiple comp preps under his/her belt is much more likely to know exactly how and what their individual body will respond to. So in short - YES i think hitting specific macros will matter for the elite ones out there. I believe like all things in life, it's the dedication to precision and attention to detail that makes all the difference in a professional arena.

No need to get so defensive mate. I have no doubt your approach works. But you need to realize that it works not because you've created a revolutionary new diet, but because you and your followers all meet minimum protein & fat requirements while still maintaining a calorie surplus or deficit (depending on desired outcome) - but in my opinion limiting yourself too much.

Like i said i hope your cut goes well. Peace brother

One thing caught me; what do you consider to be adequate protein and fat requirements, and why do you not view a certain amount of carbs as being required as well?

Also, I know that my approach works due to the fact that it either puts a trainee in a surplus or a deficit. That is the goal of every single approach out there. My approach is different due to the system that is used to hit that surplus or deficit, which is unique.

[mstatefan91]

Are you planning on posting any progress pics in here?

[2020Wellness]

Are you planning on posting any progress pics in here?

Ya, I'll post some pics up. I haven't gotten around to taking a weekly pic though.... I gotta do it like I did last time where I took one in the same location at the same time of each week.

[FastCatChamp]

They really aren't that plentiful, and most will be P + F foods from animals. There aren't many P + C foods out there that are split roughly 50/50 P/C.

I drank 2 cups of whole milk today...red cap baby! Counted it as 1 protein and 3 fats. Many have said this appraoch is limited. It can include Whole milik!

That sounds really complicated though... Counting macros can be really simple (more simple and uncomplicated than this) but also allows the freedom to eat these 'combo' foods. It also seems like not actually counting macros leaves a lot of room for error... Have you counted calories and macros accurately before?

I have counted calories and have also used Ryan's approach. Today I thought that my PSNA diet would put me at around 3800. I went in and ran it thru FitDay. It was 3907.

All kidding aside, no. Some people might set an exact macro, but I personally set a range. Such as aiming for 1.2 - 1.5 grams per pound of protein and .45 to 1 gram per pound for fats. Carbs don't really matter. As long as I hit the minimum for protein and fats I'm fine.

True, you would survive.....but would you survive and flourish in a training setting that may have you in the weightroom for hours during the week where you may be attempting to set new PRs????

Keep doing what your doing 2020, nothing wrong with it at all.

[ryannic]

One thing caught me; what do you consider to be adequate protein and fat requirements, and why do you not view a certain amount of carbs as being required as well?

Also, I know that my approach works due to the fact that it either puts a trainee in a surplus or a deficit. That is the goal of every single approach out there. My approach is different due to the system that is used to hit that surplus or deficit, which is unique.

Adequate protein and fat requirements are obviously individual. I'm sure no formula can ever give 100% accuracy on setting these but i think the formulas in the nutrition stickies are good enough to go by and backed up well enough by research.

Carbs are not essential and therefore are entirely an individual preference. Some people seem to have great success on keto style diets, others (like myself) would go insane without carbs. In my last cut i had very similar protein and fat levels as i do in my current bulk and carbs were under 100g some days to allow for a cal deficit - worked fairly well IMO

I have counted calories and have also used Ryan's approach. Today I thought that my PSNA diet would put me at around 3800. I went in and ran it thru FitDay. It was 3907.

This is what i"m talking about... 109kcal might not be much when we're talking about ~4000kcal intake, but for some competitors cutting at around 1700-1800kcal it's substantially more significant. Add that to the fact that you're never going to obtain 100% accuracy counting calories anyway and you could have quite a large discrepancy... At the end of the day if your competition is putting in the time and energy to get their diet as optimal as possible, why would you take the chance and play some what of a guessing game???

[bbavender]

Like it had been said before this isn't for everyone. It's all about what works for you. PSNA is all about the convenience factor and how much it frees me to worry about other things in life because in the long run this is only a hobby of mine not something that I want to devote 6-12 hrs thinking about each and everyday. Just my .02

[Cumulonimbus]

Like it had been said before this isn't for everyone. It's all about what works for you. PSNA is all about the convenience factor and how much it frees me to worry about other things in life because in the long run this is only a hobby of mine not something that I want to devote 6-12 hrs thinking about each and everyday. Just my .02

I thought IIFYM was lazy

[2020Wellness]

Adequate protein and fat requirements are obviously individual. I'm sure no formula can ever give 100% accuracy on setting these but i think the formulas in the nutrition stickies are good enough to go by and backed up well enough by research.

Carbs are not essential and therefore are entirely an individual preference. Some people seem to have great success on keto style diets, others (like myself) would go insane without carbs. In my last cut i had very similar protein and fat levels as i do in my current bulk and carbs were under 100g some days to allow for a cal deficit - worked fairly well IMO



This is what i"m talking about... 109kcal might not be much when we're talking about ~4000kcal intake, but for some competitors cutting at around 1700-1800kcal it's substantially more significant. Add that to the fact that you're never going to obtain 100% accuracy counting calories anyway and you could have quite a large discrepancy... At the end of the day if your competition is putting in the time and energy to get their diet as optimal as possible, why would you take the chance and play some what of a guessing game???

Please understand that it is entirely possible to keep calorie levels exactly where you want them to be with PSNA. If I want a 2500 calorie intake, that is easy to accomplish, especially if im being intricate during a contest prep. PSNA is based around total calorie intake, that is one of its strengths, not a weakness.

So yes, 100 cals could possibly make a difference, but being off would be the fault of the user, not the system.

[2020Wellness]

I thought IIFYM was lazy

I've never seen someone hold a grudge over the same remarks for so long. Find something new to complain about man, you're getting boring.

[Cumulonimbus]

I've never seen someone hold a grudge over the same remarks for so long. Find something new to complain about man, you're getting boring.

I guess my half assed trolling actually gets people mad LOL