Syria's Assad facing dissent over Deraa crackdown

[LostInTheKHole]

Wait a minute, hadn't Armenians (and Christians in general) been living under the Ottomans for nearly 600 years? If the Ottomans, as your story goes, had a policy of killing heretics and staging wide-spread massacres of minorities, why were they so late on that one?

These empires fought plenty of wars, no doubt, and as far as I know, some Armenians joined Russia in its war against the Ottomans. That's a far less interesting story than the one you were trying to paint a second ago about mass-murdering minorities for the sake of killing minorities and (different people).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...o-Turkish_wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia...Ottoman_Empire

I did not say all of the Ottoman's history is bad
Just saying that you often paint a rosy view of it
as if it was glorious
when it was not throughout its history
As for you denying the Genocide
you are as bad as Serbs denying the Bosnian Genocide
if anything you are a POS in my view

[stevensouri]

guys, the ottomans were a non-tolerant people and the minorities barely got by.

but lets not quickly accuse syria of going down the same drain. you never kno, it might turn like lebanon

[SYRIANKID]

His logic: The Armenians were not completely wiped out though they had been living under the Ottomans for 600 years! The Ottomans were so tolerant!

No, my point is that they weren't killing them for 600 years.

[LostInTheKHole]

No, my point is that they weren't killing them for 600 years.

600 years
6 years
what ****ing difference does it make

[SYRIANKID]

I did not say all of the Ottoman's history is bad
Just saying that you often paint a rosy view of it
as if it was glorious
when it was not throughout its history
As for you denying the Genocide
you are as bad as Serbs denying the Bosnian Genocide
if anything you are a POS in my view

This thread isn't about Ottomans or the Armenian Genocide, nor did I paint a "rosy view" of anything. But I did argue against your allegations about minorities etc. You're the one walking into a thread about the brutality of the Syrian regime and bringing in a wide variety of unrelated ideas. I don't know who you are and your opinion of me doesn't matter, but feel free to create another thread to talk about me.

[SYRIANKID]

600 years
6 years
what ****ing difference does it make

The difference it makes is that you are wrong about policies of butchering minorities just because they are minorities. You are bringing up examples of atrocities of war. If that counts as "butchering minorities" then you better start a new list of countries that "massacre" minorities, starting with Russia, Armenia and anyone else involved in a war during that period.

[LostInTheKHole]

The difference it makes is that you are wrong about policies of butchering minorities just because they are minorities. You are bringing up examples of atrocities of war. If that counts as "butchering minorities" then you better start a new list of countries that "massacre" minorities, starting with Russia, Armenia and anyone else involved in a war during that period.

So why do Turkish Shias hate the Ottomans?
I will say this
At least Ottomans did not forcibly Turkify their subjects
like Arabs forcibly Arabized the Persians and Levantine peoples

[US_Ranger]

I disagree, and by your line of thinking, we can say that any government that wages wars which involve bombarding innocent civilians also has no room to talk about secret police or any act of terror, and yet I just described the U.S. and Europe to name a few self-described democratic and free areas of the world.

You're not going to get everyone in the world to agree with you about any law. There are peaceful, democratic, and economically/technologically successful countries that beat you for littering or kill you for drug-dealing. You could make the same argument against them just because you disagree with their laws. That doesn't give you the right to silence criticism about secret police and acts of terror just because you disagree with some other laws the country holds.

Here's a summary: just because you can find some law in a country that you disagree with doesn't mean you can say "well you might as well just torture/murder whoever you want". Being a little "barbaric" in your eyes doesn't mean you might as well go all out and have a genocide.

I know you disagree with my line of thinking. There is no point in arguing about it. You've made it very clear over many years what your line of thinking is and it closely resembles that of the jobs the secret police are doing now in many middle eastern countries. The only difference is that you see the people that you would target as justifiable. Most of the people who post here would disagree.

Also, I never said anyone should be able to torture or kill anyone they want. I'm also not using a slippery slope argument so I'm not sure where you're going with that.

[ZenBowman]

Aren't Syrian Sunnis going to murder off Christians
and Alawites
for not being orthodox Muslims
once Bashar is gone?

My neighbors are afraid of this, I have been trying to help their son get a job and get out. For the moment, I think Assad is better than the alternative, but that doesn't mean he is good. A non-lunatic secular aristocracy would be better than Assad though, but I don't see that happening.

[byrontel]

No, my point is that they weren't killing them for 600 years.

So does that make it more tolerant?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia...Ottoman_Empire

Ottoman Armenia 1453 to 1829
Under this system, Christians and Jews were considered religious minorities/second-class citizens; they were subjected to elevated taxation, but in return they were granted autonomy within their own religious communities.
Over the centuries, tribes of Turks and Kurds settled into Anatolia and the historic Armenian land.
The destruction of the Kingdom by Ramazanoğlu tribe and the subsequent rule of Muslim powers such as the Dulkadir tribe of Turks, the Mamluks and the Ottomans led to an ever increasing numbers of Muslims in the region until finally the genocide removed the remaining vestiges of Armenians.

Reform implementation, 1860s–1880s
The three major European powers, Great Britain, France and Russia (known as the Great Powers), took issue with the Empire's treatment of its Christian minorities and increasingly pressured the Ottoman government (also known as the Sublime Porte) to extend equal rights to all its citizens.
Beginning in 1839, the Ottoman government implemented the Tanzimat reforms to improve the situation of minorities, although these would prove largely ineffective.

[SYRIANKID]

Syria: If Protesters Don't Get Assad, the Economy Will

The Syrian economy is tanking thanks to the protests.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...074471,00.html

As the crisis in Syria continues, many observers are beginning to say that if the protesters cannot overthrow the regime, the economy will. With political uncertainty at a suffocating level, the Syrian pound has fallen against the U.S. dollar. As a result, Syrians are feverishly hauling their money out of banks — about 8% of all banks deposits have been withdrawn — and shifting it into more stable foreign currencies. GDP was predicted to grow at a steady 6% this year. Now, predictions are closer to a negative 3% contraction. "I think the crackdown on protesters will succeed in the next two months," a senior western diplomat in Syria says. "But in six months time, the economy will have taken such a battering that [President Bashar al-]Assad will have lost the support of the majority of Syrians."

[byrontel]

This thread isn't about Ottomans or the Armenian Genocide, nor did I paint a "rosy view" of anything. But I did argue against your allegations about minorities etc. You're the one walking into a thread about the brutality of the Syrian regime and bringing in a wide variety of unrelated ideas. I don't know who you are and your opinion of me doesn't matter, but feel free to create another thread to talk about me.

40 years of the Assads' rule is intolerable while it's okay for Armenian second class citizenship with higher taxes and suffering for 600 years! And one must be glad they weren't wiped out!

[Dave22reborn]

Syria: If Protesters Don't Get Assad, the Economy Will

The Syrian economy is tanking thanks to the protests.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...074471,00.html

As the crisis in Syria continues, many observers are beginning to say that if the protesters cannot overthrow the regime, the economy will. With political uncertainty at a suffocating level, the Syrian pound has fallen against the U.S. dollar. As a result, Syrians are feverishly hauling their money out of banks — about 8% of all banks deposits have been withdrawn — and shifting it into more stable foreign currencies. GDP was predicted to grow at a steady 6% this year. Now, predictions are closer to a negative 3% contraction. "I think the crackdown on protesters will succeed in the next two months," a senior western diplomat in Syria says. "But in six months time, the economy will have taken such a battering that [President Bashar al-]Assad will have lost the support of the majority of Syrians."

Syria's economy is suffering due to the protests, and you think thats a good thing? Maybe you need to read "The Prince." Thing is, after there's a revolution, the new government ends up being far worse than the previous one.

[stevensouri]

Syria's economy is suffering due to the protests, and you think thats a good thing? Maybe you need to read "The Prince." Thing is, after there's a revolution, the new government ends up being far worse than the previous one.

thts the fear so far, no way of telling if this will actually happen.

[Judge_Joe_Brown]

Lostinthekhole is confirmed as DHJ

[Dr.Z]

Turks themselves converted to Islam, nobody forced them. The idea that Turks would "wipe off anyone who weren't Muslim or convert to Islam" is a nice fabricated lie.


Last time I looked, it was the Europeans that forced their Religion on every Continent in the World... no?


Compare the Natives vs Eastern Europeans under Ottoman rule. One group still thrives to this day, and the other is near extinct...



- - - - -



Assad ruling or not, I hope the best for Syrians. If Assad can provide that, fine. If not, he should respect his people's wishes.


Syrians are more than capable of handling this internally... best wishes.

[Hanzala]

To the people saying that Sunnis want to kill Christians this is totally wrong. Syria was ruled by Sunni Muslims before the Alawis, 30-40 years ago, and no Christians were butchered, there was even a Christian transitional President.

[SYRIANKID]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...c0f022f256.5a1

"We will go out from every home, from every district to express our anger" over the killing, they wrote on the page which carries a picture of the boy.

"A month had passed by with his family not knowing where he is, or if or when will he be released. He was released to his family as a dead body. Upon examining his body, the signs of torture are very clear," they said.

"There were a few bullets in his body used as a way of torture rather than to kill him with. Clear signs of severe physical abuse appeared on the body such as marks done with hands, sticks, and shoes. Hamza's penis was also cut off."

[Dave22reborn]

Turks themselves converted to Islam, nobody forced them. The idea that Turks would "wipe off anyone who weren't Muslim or convert to Islam" is a nice fabricated lie.


Last time I looked, it was the Europeans that forced their Religion on every Continent in the World... no?


Compare the Natives vs Eastern Europeans under Ottoman rule. One group still thrives to this day, and the other is near extinct...



- - - - -



Assad ruling or not, I hope the best for Syrians. If Assad can provide that, fine. If not, he should respect his people's wishes.


Syrians are more than capable of handling this internally... best wishes.

Hear we go again, with the bull**** that Islamic rule was a paradise. Forget to mention the fact that Jews and Christians were treated as second-class citizens, and others were treated far worse.

[SYRIANKID]

Video of Tortured Boy’s Corpse Deepens Anger in Syria

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/wo...yria.html?_r=1

But the remains themselves testify all too clearly to ghastly torture. Video posted online shows his battered, purple face. His skin is scrawled with cuts, gashes, deep burns and bullet wounds that would probably have injured but not killed. His jaw and kneecaps are shattered, according to an unidentified narrator, and his penis chopped off.

“These are the reforms of the treacherous Bashar,” the narrator says. “Where are human rights? Where are the international criminal tribunals?”

[SYRIANKID]

Syria accused of torturing children

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...01/3232246.htm

United Nations children's agency UNICEF has called on Syria to investigate reports of "horrific acts" of violence against children detained during the current wave of unrest.

[LostInTheKHole]

Hear we go again, with the bull**** that Islamic rule was a paradise. Forget to mention the fact that Jews and Christians were treated as second-class citizens, and others were treated far worse.

Tariq Ali (who is an atheist) has this to say:

Jews were not the only privileged refugees. During the wars of the Reformation German, French and Czech Protestants fleeing Catholic revenge-squads were also given protection by the Ottoman sultans. Here, there was an additional political motive. The Ottoman state closely followed developments in the rest of Europe, and vigorously defended its interests by means of diplomatic, trade and cultural alliances with major powers. The Pope, however, was viewed with suspicion, and revolts against Catholicism were welcomed in Istanbul.

Ottoman sultans began to feature in Eur-opean folklore, often demonised and vulgarised, but the sultans themselves were always conscious of their place in geography and history, as evidenced in this modest letter of introduction sent by Suleiman the Magnificent, who reigned from 1520 to 1566, to the French King:

I who am the Sultan of Sultans, the sovereign of sovereigns, the dispenser of crowns to the monarchs on the face of the earth, the shadow of God on Earth, the Sultan and sovereign lord of the White Sea and of the Black Sea, of Rumelia and of Anatolia, of Karamania, of the land of Rum, of Zulkadria, of Diyarbekir, of Kurdistan, of Aizerbaijan, of Persia, of Damascus, of Aleppo, of Cairo, of Mecca, of Medina, of Jerusalem, of all Arabia, of Yemen and of many other lands which my noble fore-fathers and my glorious ancestors (may Allah light up their tombs!) conquered by the force of their arms and which my August Majesty has made subject to my flaming sword and my victorious blade, I, Sultan Suleiman Khan, son of Sultan Selim, son of Sultan Bayezid: To thee, who art Francis, King of the land of France.

While the Ottomans were friendly to Jews and Christians,
their tolerance towards heretics (especially Alevis) was another matter:

The tolerance shown to Jews and Protestants was rarely, if ever, extended to heretics within Islam, however. The mullahs ensured that punishment was brutal and swift. To deter heresies they jealously safeguarded their monopoly of information and power, opposing all moves to import a printing press to Istanbul. ‘Remember Martin Luther,’ the qadi warned the Sultan. The Reformation could be supported because it served to divide Christianity, but the very idea of a Muslim Luther was unacceptable. The clerics knew the early history of Islam and were determined not to repeat it.

[SYRIANKID]

Syria: Human Right Watch warns "We've never seen such horror"

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/15627...rrested-in.htm

[realistromeo]

IF their GDP was forecast to rise 6% this year why all the dissent?
Because inflation was masterminded by outside sources to put the regime under it's thumb.

USA you dun goofed, your econ is lousy you hope for .3 or 3% increase, yet other countries are growing at double digit numbers,,,, you mad america you mad.


It's a simple geopolitical control, why must they bubble wrap global tyrany with the name of democracy? occupation,insergencies, downright rejection of international sovrienty.

But you aint never touch syria buddies never.

[SYRIANKID]

Syria protest intensifies; Internet access is cut off

http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...ss_is_cut_off/

[SYRIANKID]

Report: Deaths mount in Syrian violence

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/me...yria.fighting/

The witness said people were heading toward a square in the center of town and chanted, "Freedom, freedom! National unity! Christians and Muslims are one! Leave, leave" and, "The people want the fall of the regime."

[LostInTheKHole]

Report: Deaths mount in Syrian violence

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/me...yria.fighting/

The witness said people were heading toward a square in the center of town and chanted, "Freedom, freedom! National unity! Christians and Muslims are one! Leave, leave" and, "The people want the fall of the regime."

lol
and then they'll kill Christians
just like what your brothers in Iraq
have been doing

[stevensouri]

lol
and then they'll kill Christians
just like what your brothers in Iraq
have been doing

thts kinda wat happened in egypt

[LostInTheKHole]

thts kinda wat happened in egypt

Except Egypt at least has its institutions intact
Iraq is a hellhole

[SYRIANKID]

Syrian protesters turn on Iran and Hezbollah

http://observers.france24.com/conten...iran-hezbollah



Syrian opposition protesters are not just calling for the fall of President Bashar al-Assad: they have recently begun directing their anger against his regional allies, Iran and Hezbollah. Our Observer says this is a new and unexpected turn of events.