Thanks for nothing, Obama

[mslman71]

Obama's Executive Orders < Bush's Patriot Act.

Tell me which one is more invasive?

Death by hanging or death by electrocution. Tell me which one leads to a state of greater death.

[drudixon]

Well, you're getting nearer to what I was thinking, but no one has answered my questions. So are you telling me that with these Executive Orders, my employer - my manager, not my HR or legal departments - would now receive employees medical records? And my car insurer? My house insurer? My banker?

I thought by the OP, that they were going to the government. I still don't know what department of the government will be the recipient of this information.

Can anyone clarify?

Here are the 23 executive orders.

1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.

2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.

3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.
More In Guns

4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.

5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.

6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.

7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.

8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).

9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.

10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.

11. Nominate an ATF director.

12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.

13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.

14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.

15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies.

16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.

17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.

18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.

19. Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.

20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.

21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.

22. Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.

23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.

http://www.infowars.com/obamas-23-ex...ease-and-more/

[DesertDude11]

Death by hanging or death by electrocution. Tell me which one leads to a state of greater death.

I agree with what you are saying. See my last post.

[Brackneyc]

Pretty much...

My point in this is that we as Americans have taken to such partisan politics that we seem to forget that it is the GOVERNMENT we are pissed at, not the Pupp... I mean President.

I agree, I blame the liberal media. LOL J/K

[LisaSkinnoble]

Here are the 23 executive orders.

tl;dr

[mslman71]

tl;dr

My take is that it is pretty unremarkable. If my provider asks about firearms I'll tell them it's none of their business, or lie.

[Phattso]

My take is that it is pretty unremarkable. If my provider asks about firearms I'll tell them it's none of their business, or lie.

This is where I would lie, as well. If they insist it is their business, then I would take my business elsewhere.

[mslman71]

This is where I would lie, as well. If they insist it is their business, then I would take my business elsewhere.

If I don't see the process of gathering specific data to be beneficial then I typically go the disinformation route. People seem inclined to believe whatever they are told but will be suspicious if information is withheld.

[HairyScandinavian]

Obama's Executive Orders < Bush's Patriot Act.

Tell me which one is more invasive?

Don't get all defensive of Bush either... the financial situation we are in currently is EVERYONE's fault. Anyone who took out a HELOC, did a cash out re-fi or accepted one single red cent from either of those transactions is 100% to blame for the situation we are in now.

Pretty much...

My point in this is that we as Americans have taken to such partisan politics that we seem to forget that it is the GOVERNMENT we are pissed at, not the Pupp... I mean President.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your point, I think you may have missed the point of this thread being the fact that due to these executive orders the OP's family member, who would benefit from it, won't be seeking help for a possible mental illness. I don't think she can blame the Patriot Act for that so in this particular event she is in fact angry at the Puppet and not the Government.

[sy2502]

Obama's Executive Orders < Bush's Patriot Act.

Tell me which one is more invasive?

Don't get all defensive of Bush either... the financial situation we are in currently is EVERYONE's fault. Anyone who took out a HELOC, did a cash out re-fi or accepted one single red cent from either of those transactions is 100% to blame for the situation we are in now.

I am really not sure why you brought Bush in the discussion, or why you'd even think I'd defend Bush, but yes I do believe that the Patriot Act undermines the Constitution just as much. Nevertheless, this thread isn't about the Patriot Act, it's about the recent executive orders, and specifically something about them I haven't seen discussed anywhere, but happens to touch my family. Also I wanted to point out how some laws can actually have the effect opposite to their intent, like in this case. I am sorry you missed the point of my thread, but on the other hand, you do seem to be the only one who did, so maybe it isn't entirely my fault.

Edit: apologies to HairyScandinavian who beat me to it, sorry for repeating what you already said so eloquently.

[DesertDude11]

I am really not sure why you brought Bush in the discussion, or why you'd even think I'd defend Bush, but yes I do believe that the Patriot Act undermines the Constitution just as much. Nevertheless, this thread isn't about the Patriot Act, it's about the recent executive orders, and specifically something about them I haven't seen discussed anywhere, but happens to touch my family. Also I wanted to point out how some laws can actually have the effect opposite to their intent, like in this case. I am sorry you missed the point of my thread, but on the other hand, you do seem to be the only one who did, so maybe it isn't entirely my fault.

I understand your original intent and do not disagree with your disappointment in the government or with Obama in general. I too am a gun owner. I too know people with issues, and I too am disappointed with his un-thought out, swift moving, knee jerk legislation attempts. Let's be clear on that!

However, I will say that you took a conservative slant when you started bashing Liberals.

Originally Posted by KeepItMoving
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Liberals followers are never wrong because their emotions told them they "meant well."

It took me about 30 seconds from the moment I read the contents of the executive orders to connect the dots on how they are going to discourage people from seeking mental help. Seriously, it's not that frigging hard to see. What are these people thinking?

That is why I made the comparison between Bush and Obama.

The bigger problem with this country is not so much who the leader is but the divisiveness of the people. You blaming "Liberals" for stuff like this. "Liberals" blaming the economic meltdown on Bush. It's all fuggin BULLSHIIT! Not one single "Liberal" out there refused a cent made on the housing bubble and they know it. We are ALL part of the problem.

Anyhow... United We Stand, Divided We.... Are.

[NorwichGrad]

Pretty much...

My point in this is that we as Americans have taken to such partisan politics that we seem to forget that it is the GOVERNMENT we are pissed at, not the Pupp... I mean President.

And this is exactly what the government wants. They want us to fight amongst ourselves so that they can buttrape every single one of us, and then it will be too late when we realize our sphincters are hemorrhaging like a rotten cauliflower, because of our failure to realize who the real threat is.

[whatevergirl]

And this is exactly what the government wants. They want us to fight amongst ourselves so that they can buttrape every single one of us, and then it will be too late when we realize our sphincters are hemorrhaging like a rotten cauliflower, because of our failure to realize who the real threat is.

whatta visual! lol! i didn't vote for obama, but don't you think...this is a slight exaggeration? hmmm?

[sy2502]

However, I will say that you took a conservative slant when you started bashing Liberals.

No, it actually was a Libertarian slant. They are both equally bad at taking away liberties. But these specific laws were in fact passed by Liberals therefore I simply placed the blame where it was due. But I understand that by now this country is so ridiculously polarized that criticizing Obama must make one a NRA racist lunatic, and supporting Obama must make one a bleeding heart hippie commie, which is why we can't have an intelligent conversation in this country any more. Also when I said "what were they thinking" I meant whoever came up with those specific laws, not Liberals at large.

The bigger problem with this country is not so much who the leader is but the divisiveness of the people. You blaming "Liberals" for stuff like this. "Liberals" blaming the economic meltdown on Bush. It's all fuggin BULLSHIIT! Not one single "Liberal" out there refused a cent made on the housing bubble and they know it. We are ALL part of the problem.

Anyhow... United We Stand, Divided We.... Are.

I absolutely agree with you, I have lost several friendships between the time of the Presidential campaign and now, just because people who I thought were fairly intelligent and reasonable turned up to be rabid, foaming at the mouth, brain washed lunatics. From both sides of the political spectrum.

In this case, I tried to make a reasonable case that these laws will not reach the desired effect and may, in fact, do the opposite. I also described how it will affect me and my family. If you don't agree with my conclusions, we can certainly discuss it. That's what the thread is for

[DesertDude11]

I absolutely agree with you, I have lost several friendships between the time of the Presidential campaign and now, just because people who I thought were fairly intelligent and reasonable turned up to be rabid, foaming at the mouth, brain washed lunatics. From both sides of the political spectrum.

In this case, I tried to make a reasonable case that these laws will not reach the desired effect and may, in fact, do the opposite. I also described how it will affect me and my family. If you don't agree with my conclusions, we can certainly discuss it. That's what the thread is for

I too have lost friendships recently. Also from both sides of the isle... it's truly mind boggling to think of how bad things have gotten...

I also agree with you that what the president is doing may have a negative impact and take away from what I would say 99% of the people in this country want to see happen which is: 1. no more shootings and 2. help for the mentally ill.

I should also point out that I was a little quick to jump on you and make a judgement about where you stood politically... turns out that I have developed a bit of a hair trigger when it comes to the divisiveness in our current political environment.

[sy2502]

I too have lost friendships recently. Also from both sides of the isle... it's truly mind boggling to think of how bad things have gotten...

I also agree with you that what the president is doing may have a negative impact and take away from what I would say 99% of the people in this country want to see happen which is: 1. no more shootings and 2. help for the mentally ill.

I should also point out that I was a little quick to jump on you and make a judgement about where you stood politically... turns out that I have developed a bit of a hair trigger when it comes to the divisiveness in our current political environment.

Understandable, no harm done

[HairyScandinavian]

I understand your original intent and do not disagree with your disappointment in the government or with Obama in general. I too am a gun owner. I too know people with issues, and I too am disappointed with his un-thought out, swift moving, knee jerk legislation attempts. Let's be clear on that!

However, I will say that you took a conservative slant when you started bashing Liberals.






That is why I made the comparison between Bush and Obama.

The bigger problem with this country is not so much who the leader is but the divisiveness of the people. You blaming "Liberals" for stuff like this. "Liberals" blaming the economic meltdown on Bush. It's all fuggin BULLSHIIT! Not one single "Liberal" out there refused a cent made on the housing bubble and they know it. We are ALL part of the problem.

Anyhow... United We Stand, Divided We.... Are.

You realize "gun control" is straight out of the Liberal handbook. There are lots of peeps to blame for lots of **** our government does, but when it comes to the idiocy and ineffectiveness of gun control legislation that falls pretty square on the back of Liberals.

As for taking sides, I don't disagree with you. People cheer for their political party like a damn sports team, it's sickening.

[NorwichGrad]

whatta visual! lol! i didn't vote for obama, but don't you think...this is a slight exaggeration? hmmm?

I'm a little pissy, Ms. WEG, just like everyone else.

I'm not as eloquent as some members, so sometimes the best way for me to express how I feel is thru visualization. Good, bad or ugly, just like coaching my lifters, "cue words" are the way I communicate.

[Corbi]

My take is that it is pretty unremarkable. If my provider asks about firearms I'll tell them it's none of their business, or lie.

Nope no guns here, lost em all in that tragic boating accident in 06.

[bmccurdy]

As you know, part of the executive orders Obama just signed deal with the exchange of information between health care providers and the federal government, so that your medical history can be used in the background checks.

I have a family member who's an alcoholic, and also has some depression and anxiety issues. He owns guns, but he is not a danger to anybody. The rest of the family has given up on him and I am the only person who tries to help him. Recently he mentioned he'd like to get some professional help. If you know people with addictions, or if you are or have been one, you know how hard it is for an addict to seek help, so I was just ecstatic to hear it.

Well, now I can assure you, this person will not, under any circumstance, seek help any more, knowing the federal government will keep a record on him. And how can I blame him? If I am ever in the situation of needing mental help, I wouldn't get it either under the current circumstances. And I am pretty sure plenty of gun owners out there won't either. So once again, a dimwitted law will get the exact opposite result of its intent.

So yeah, thanks for nothing Obama, you dimwit.

I will agree partly in that getting Mental Health folks on board with being able to prevent those that would cause harm to others from purchasing a gun is a step in the right direction. But I will say, the devil is always in the details, as this is a very slippery slope we are jumping on. Its always easier to take away a freedom than it is to add one or get one back! Before enacting any type of such law a little critical thinking needs to be done and questions must be answered, such as: How does one get on the list? How long do you stay on the list? What all information is on that list? And how is that list cross referenced and who decides whether you can purchase a gun?

Of course we all know exactly what will happen. As you mentioned, someone with an addiction will seek help from a Doctor and somewhere in their consultation they will be asked "Have you ever thought about harming yourself or others?". To which most serious addicts will probably respond: "Yes, I know my addiction is such a burden on my family I've thought they would be better without me". Doctor checks the box, and now their name lives forever on a 'no gun purchase' list.

10 years down the road after they have been clean and sober for years, they may want to get a rifle for hunting and will be instantly denied because 10 years prior they were added to a list that is not maintained very well. A real list that would be worth the 1s and 0s its written in should be reserved for those that are truly disturbed, but then you have to ask, if they are that disturbed why aren't they in a mental institution in the first place? I mean if they are that bent on harming people would not getting a gun really stop then or would they just go buy a machete, a crossbow, or buy some fertilizer and make an IED.

[Phattso]

If I don't see the process of gathering specific data to be beneficial then I typically go the disinformation route. People seem inclined to believe whatever they are told but will be suspicious if information is withheld.

I agree. It is shocking beyond belief that newspapers list the names of gun owners as if they are criminals. Over the past four years, it is scary to think how ANY subject matter has and will be politicized. It has almost caused - and has, in some respects civil unrest, i.e. Class Warfare, to name one.

[Frnkd]

As you know, part of the executive orders Obama just signed deal with the exchange of information between health care providers and the federal government, so that your medical history can be used in the background checks.

I have a family member who's an alcoholic, and also has some depression and anxiety issues. He owns guns, but he is not a danger to anybody. The rest of the family has given up on him and I am the only person who tries to help him. Recently he mentioned he'd like to get some professional help. If you know people with addictions, or if you are or have been one, you know how hard it is for an addict to seek help, so I was just ecstatic to hear it.

Well, now I can assure you, this person will not, under any circumstance, seek help any more, knowing the federal government will keep a record on him. And how can I blame him? If I am ever in the situation of needing mental help, I wouldn't get it either under the current circumstances. And I am pretty sure plenty of gun owners out there won't either. So once again, a dimwitted law will get the exact opposite result of its intent.

So yeah, thanks for nothing Obama, you dimwit.

I m not sure its been said already, was not going to read all the threads, but its already understood that IF a patient makes a comment about going to hurt himself- suicidal ideation, or others, with violence- gun in this case, the doctor is obligated to inform the authorities and like wise the person that is the target. Similar to a child revelaing that his parents or adult have been abusing them, child protective service is informed by law. HIPAA laws continue to be in effect.

So unless an open threat is made and determined to be significant by the therapist or doctor, what ever form of reporting to ensure that any gun background check when made will flag this threat, there shouldn't be a concern. In fact clarification on this with the doctor or therapist could ease his mind.

FYI- I asked the therapist at our facility on this as it will probably come up with some other patient and families in treatment. Keep in mind that with regards to this gun control thing not much details have come out.

[Powerkicker]

My new answer to liberal demonization of my guns;

[gympunk]

I m not sure its been said already, was not going to read all the threads, but its already understood that IF a patient makes a comment about going to hurt himself- suicidal ideation, or others, with violence- gun in this case, the doctor is obligated to inform the authorities and like wise the person that is the target. Similar to a child revelaing that his parents or adult have been abusing them, child protective service is informed by law. HIPAA laws continue to be in effect.

So unless an open threat is made and determined to be significant by the therapist or doctor, what ever form of reporting to ensure that any gun background check when made will flag this threat, there shouldn't be a concern. In fact clarification on this with the doctor or therapist could ease his mind.

FYI- I asked the therapist at our facility on this as it will probably come up with some other patient and families in treatment. Keep in mind that with regards to this gun control thing not much details have come out.

I think it's an odd mind set that y2502 apparently supports this relative's notion that gun ownership more important than the relative's health & life itself. The person is suffering from alcoholism, depression, anxiety & his family has given up on him; but he doesn't want to be on a government list so he won't get help? The response "How can I blame him?". Really? That's acceptable logic? Make sure to throw his guns into the coffin with him when you bury him, and chalk up another 2nd Amendment success story.

[mslman71]

I think it's an odd mind set that y2502 apparently supports this relative's notion that gun ownership more than the relative's health & life itself. The person is suffering from alcoholism, depression, anxiety & his family has given up on him; but he doesn't want to be on a government list so he won't get help? The response "How can I blame him?". Really? That's acceptable logic? Make sure to throw his guns into the coffin with him when you bury him, and chalk up another 2nd Amendment success story.

I wouldn't seek any professional mental help, MD or a basic counselor, that wasn't at the point of being life critical because I don't trust that by the time the information reaches people who make decisions that it would have been presented in the proper perspective or would ever be able to be reversed. This applies to gun ownership rights as much as it does to retaining pilot's certificate or anything else that requirers a bureaucrat's stamp. It starts off with being a little visit to occupational health about down in the dumps about something at work and ends up showing up on a desk in DC as a diagnosis of depression. F' that.

[Brackneyc]

I think it's an odd mind set that y2502 apparently supports this relative's notion that gun ownership more than the relative's health & life itself. The person is suffering from alcoholism, depression, anxiety & his family has given up on him; but he doesn't want to be on a government list so he won't get help? The response "How can I blame him?". Really? That's acceptable logic? Make sure to throw his guns into the coffin with him when you bury him, and chalk up another 2nd Amendment success story.

Well, believe it or not, there are some (and many will not understand the idea at all) that would put themselves at great personal risk to keep the rights of others in tact.

When it comes down to getting help and losing my rights as a result, I'll take the sickness. No contest.

[sy2502]

I think it's an odd mind set that y2502 apparently supports this relative's notion that gun ownership more than the relative's health & life itself. The person is suffering from alcoholism, depression, anxiety & his family has given up on him; but he doesn't want to be on a government list so he won't get help? The response "How can I blame him?". Really? That's acceptable logic? Make sure to throw his guns into the coffin with him when you bury him, and chalk up another 2nd Amendment success story.

I can certainly understand if others think differently. Personally I don't think Prozac does me any good if I am dead, and that my mental health may get a lot worse if someone breaks into my house, beats the crap out of me, and rapes me. But that's just me, I don't pretend to have the definitive answer on the subject.

As for my relative, there isn't much I can say about his choices, there are plenty of people in his situation who don't seek any help at all, and not because of the guns, but other reasons (if anyone here has experience on the subject, they can share why addicts don't seek help). I can't go into people's heads and change them, all I can say is comment on the situation, and the situation is that, knowing this person, he will not seek help knowing he'll end up in a federal database that may haunt him for the rest of his life. Neither would I. Neither would many other people. They may be wrong or right, but the reality is that a bunch of people who need help won't seek it because of these new laws. Laws need to be made with consideration for how things ARE not how they SHOULD BE.

[paolo59]

I can certainly understand if others think differently. Personally I don't think Prozac does me any good if I am dead, and that my mental health may get a lot worse if someone breaks into my house, beats the crap out of me, and rapes me. But that's just me, I don't pretend to have the definitive answer on the subject.

As for my relative, there isn't much I can say about his choices, there are plenty of people in his situation who don't seek any help at all, and not because of the guns, but other reasons (if anyone here has experience on the subject, they can share why addicts don't seek help). I can't go into people's heads and change them, all I can say is comment on the situation, and the situation is that, knowing this person, he will not seek help knowing he'll end up in a federal database that may haunt him for the rest of his life. Neither would I. Neither would many other people. They may be wrong or right, but the reality is that a bunch of people who need help won't seek it because of these new laws. Laws need to be made with consideration for how things ARE not how they SHOULD BE.

Most politicians are little more than trained apes. They don't seem to understand that 'to every action, there is always an equal and opposite reaction.' You would think that at least they could take the physicians lead...'do no harm.'

[EB68]

I am moving to new york myself, currently the safest place on earth with its new gun laws. We all know that banning guns will mean no more gun violence just like banning meth caused it to cease to exist in this country. That is also why the jails/prisons in this country are empty, cause no one breaks the law here. These steps that The Idiot in charge has came up with are limited only because his power on the issue is limited. If he could have his way you would have zero guns to protect yourself from his desires. Limiting magazine capacity to 10 rounds is stupid plain and simple. The guy who shot those kids in sandy hook could have killed just as many with a single shot shotgun, with no resistance.

[Brackneyc]

I am moving to new york myself, currently the safest place on earth with its new gun laws. We all know that banning guns will mean no more gun violence just like banning meth caused it to cease to exist in this country. That is also why the jails/prisons in this country are empty, cause no one breaks the law here. These steps that The Idiot in charge has came up with are limited only because his power on the issue is limited. If he could have his way you would have zero guns to protect yourself from his desires. Limiting magazine capacity to 10 rounds is stupid plain and simple. The guy who shot those kids in sandy hook could have killed just as many with a single shot shotgun, with no resistance.

NY is awesome. They will also tell you how much soda you can drink at a time. I can tell you that IMO, we have half as many laws as we need. C'mon government, get your sht together and legislate us into safety, fitness and happiness. We are waiting.