to all you know-it-alls who want to train w/o a cert.

[jules_d1]

Let Me make it easy for You Yanks to Understand lol.
If You were Sick would You go to a MD / Doc with a Uni Degree or would You go to a Bloke who hanged around the Hospital a Lot and new a bit ??????
You do the Maths ........

where does the math come into it?

[Most Muscular]

I have seen more than my fair share of "certified trainers" that didn't know jack about how to lift themselves let alone trying to teach someone else proper form. I normally just keep to myself when I see someone using bad form but one time I just had to step in on a trainer when she was instructing a guy how to squat. She had him bending his back so far over I cringed at every rep. If she would have continued that lesson he would have been hurting bad in the morning.

nuff said...

[abs101]

BEEN Training many years off-on,What I know as a trainer you can not learn in a any book.IT came from Experience,trail and error.Most people train the wrong way the first 5 years of ther lives if they make it that far,then hire a trainer.I do agree that you need a ceitfications,but the u.s gov. should step in and make guide lines,what makes yours better then mine,the cost.I was a trainer when I was 21,there was no certification at that time,looking back would I hire that guy (ME) No way.I knew basic stuff that would help the out of shape person,put thats it.Theres more to it today,get the paper its the only way you will get a Job with the big Clubs,then keep reading,learning,and being someone who will help anyone who wants to get into shape.CAN YOU GET RESULTS FOR PEOPLE WHO HIRE YOU.Been there,done that,and still doing it.Don't talk the talk,if you can't walk the walk.I don't know alot that other trainer do,put I keep trying to get more knowledgeable everyday,I have been able to withstand the test of time with all the up-downs of life,and I will never give up till they put me in the ground,take care all.

[John Prophet]

In the end its sort of a moot point. Anyone who is motivated enough to spend years in the trenches should also be motivated enough to spend the 6 weeks or so it would take to get a basic cert.

Sure, a cert by itself doesnt prove anything, but if one has already waged years of war with the weights then he ought to have what it takes to do a little studying.

Why argue over the "either-or" of book learning vs experience? Obviously the best answer is to have both.

That being said, a basic cert can sometimes be had with a week of studying, whereas 25 years of experience takes---25 years.

[SoHypnotick]

I have a question for you all, Who would you choose somone who has some fancy shinny cert saying that there a qualified PT and looks like any joe blogs on the street or somone whos been in the gym for years training with various partners and looks like an anatomy chart? Nothing can beat experience in my eyes, not even a fancy cert saying you are qualified because the day you walk out the door you have almost no idea what its gonna be like.

Just wondering

Sure that guy knows how to make HIMSELF look big- but he might not have any clue on how to train you effectivley or safley

[gymratluke]

Yeah yeah, you've been working out for years. You're experienced and you know everything there is about working out because your older brother has been reading Muscle and Fitness for years and you watched him working out as you were growing up. You yourself are in top physical condition so that means you can get anyone to that level.

Most people that think they know enough to train people have no clue about neuromuscular efficiency and misalignment of the body. You're gonna have people squat and not even notice that their knees are moving slightly inward. As you try to progress them by adding more weight, their glutes will get weaker while their inner thighs will get tighter and tighter. When you have someone do rows, you won't know notice that their traps and biceps are doing all the work. Their rhomboids will never develop and when you have them do heavy military press, their rhomboids will not activate and pull their shoulders back in the proper position which will put too much stress on their anterior delts while their teres minor and external rotators of the humerus stretch until they rips loose like a frayed rubber band. This is unless the front delts and/or bicep brachii doesn't strain first.

This might take a little time to happen under normal circumstances but the fact that you'll be having them do front delt raises and upright rows right after military presses but only having them do some half assed reverse flyes for their rear delts on shoulder day will surely speed up the process.

Do you still think you know what you're doing? By all means, go for it. Go ahead and screw someones body up for the rest of their life. The insurance you thought you'd never need will take care of everything.

I dont have a certification, I've trained people for the last 4 years. Never had one person get hurt, never had one person unsatisfied, never had one person who didnt have amazing results. I've read about 15 different books. I skimmed thru the ISSA book for stuff that I didnt know much about that was interesting. I just havent had time to go get a certification cause its not top priority for me since its only a minor thing in my life. I have a landscape business that keeps me busy.

Tell me that I shouldnt be training people...lol

[jdmalm123]

Never had one person get hurt

What if you did? Are you insured?

What if you crippled/paralyzed someone? How would you handle that?

[gymratluke]

What if you did? Are you insured?

What if you crippled/paralyzed someone? How would you handle that?

Then sorry, you asked for it, you know the chances you take when asking someone to train you under the table. Not my problem.

It can happen to anyone. I'm not stupid. I'm not gonna have some noob lifting weight they cant handle or do exercises that they cant do with good form. If things hurt or are uncomfortable, I dont have them do it. If there was some freak accident that happened, I'm not gonna sit there and blame myself.

[jdmalm123]

Then sorry, you asked for it, you know the chances you take when asking someone to train you under the table. Not my problem.

It can happen to anyone. I'm not stupid. I'm not gonna have some noob lifting weight they cant handle or do exercises that they cant do with good form. If things hurt or are uncomfortable, I dont have them do it. If there was some freak accident that happened, I'm not gonna sit there and blame myself.

That's not what the jury will say when they award your client a few million in damages.

[gymratluke]

That's not what the jury will say when they award your client a few million in damages.

Prove it was my fault. Prove I was taking money from them and should be held liable...

[jdmalm123]

Prove it was my fault. Prove I was taking money from them and should be held liable...

http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/t...gence-7689.php

"While Clarissa was working on the bench with 40 lbs. of weight on the bar and while she was in the middle of a set, Mr. Hoover walked away and stopped spotting for Clarissa," reads the lawsuit. "[She] could not control the weight on lifting, and the bar came down hard on her neck and fell on the bench."

Heavy weights?


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=1

"The family of a fashion designer who suffered a fatal stroke while working out with a personal trainer claimed in a lawsuit filed yesterday that the woman's death was caused by the nutritional supplements her trainer instructed her to take."

Something the trainer would know in advance?


Basically, I'm not trying to single you out, but I work in insurance and the reality is you are taking a big risk by not being "properly" trained and therefore, insured. Just something to consider. Also, ask yourself: If you were sued and found completely innocent, but was in court for 6-12 months and unable to work during that time, would that have any impact on you? How much would a lawyer cost to defend you (even if you won)?

I'm not your dad, preacher or conscience, so just take at as my opinion if you disagree.

[Keltron]

This is funny because nowhere in my original post did I EVER state that just being certified is all you need to be a good trainer. NOWHERE. I seriously have no clue as to why all these people stared piping up about how just having a cert w/o any experience doesn't mean squat. I think the people that felt they knew enough to train w/o a cert needed some kind of counter-ammo against qualified people.

[Kiknskreem]

This is funny because nowhere in my original post did I EVER state that just being certified is all you need to be a good trainer. NOWHERE. I seriously have no clue as to why all these people stared piping up about how just having a cert w/o any experience doesn't mean squat. I think the people that felt they knew enough to train w/o a cert needed some kind of counter-ammo against qualified people.

You are far too transparent. I am not even a trainer, but the implications of both your original post and this one are thinly veiled.

It seems quite obvious you are being both condescending and baiting.

I agree that if one is really going to be a trainer, they should go through the proper channels, but really dude... have you read your own posts?

[Grinners]

well here is my take on the situation, the problem with personal training at leats in north america is that anyone can do it and it hurts the integrity of the proffesion, people honestly think that anyone can do it and thats what a majority of people have said to me as well from talking to them abuot pt's, and for me personally i will never work with a person that does not have a education or certification, these guys who think that having a cert is junk are completly wrong cause your integrity as a trainer goes hand in hand with training and if you dont knwo what your doing and you end up injurying someone caus eyou know proper body allignment and biomechanics then your word of mouth will not be good...thumbs up for certs

Strong contradiction....

[gymratluke]

http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/t...gence-7689.php

"While Clarissa was working on the bench with 40 lbs. of weight on the bar and while she was in the middle of a set, Mr. Hoover walked away and stopped spotting for Clarissa," reads the lawsuit. "[She] could not control the weight on lifting, and the bar came down hard on her neck and fell on the bench."

Heavy weights?


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=1

"The family of a fashion designer who suffered a fatal stroke while working out with a personal trainer claimed in a lawsuit filed yesterday that the woman's death was caused by the nutritional supplements her trainer instructed her to take."

Something the trainer would know in advance?


Basically, I'm not trying to single you out, but I work in insurance and the reality is you are taking a big risk by not being "properly" trained and therefore, insured. Just something to consider. Also, ask yourself: If you were sued and found completely innocent, but was in court for 6-12 months and unable to work during that time, would that have any impact on you? How much would a lawyer cost to defend you (even if you won)?

I'm not your dad, preacher or conscience, so just take at as my opinion if you disagree.

Point taken. Thanks for the info/advice...

[Grinners]

Let Me make it easy for You Yanks to Understand lol.
If You were Sick would You go to a MD / Doc with a Uni Degree or would You go to a Bloke who hanged around the Hospital a Lot and new a bit ??????
You do the Maths ........

I'd rather take advice from Jay Cutler than Trainer Tim who is 120lb's and did a 12 week course thank-you very much.

Having a cert. is just like having a drivers licence. You dont need one to be a good driver, and just becuase you have one it doesnt make you a good driver. Its basically a legal recognition to show that you are not completley useless at it (keyword completley)

I think that sums it up well.

This is a funny thread because there are plenty of PTs out there with advanced degrees saying the exact same thing to simply certified PTs.

Couldn't agree more!

[carl.c]

I'd rather take advice from Jay Cutler than Trainer Tim who is 120lb's and did a 12 week course thank-you very much.



I think that sums it up well.




Couldn't agree more!

gymratluke: Dispite all the nonsence about why you don't need a cert to train alll it takes is one law suit to run your life. What gets you out of a law suit is to fold one with a cert you can get insurance. two you can't get sued for following the guide lines of your certification orginization.
Since you are new to this section I should say I strongly advicate and belive that all trainers should have a good cert and a college degree.

[kinglifter]

There are some certs that prove you know what your talking about. There are a lot of certs that take a few weeks that mean nothing to me. Based on the trainers I have met that have certs I have concluded you dont need to be certified to be a good trainer. While it can help you become a better trainer it isnt necessary, and merely gives some status to people who dont know squat.

[Armed&Dangerous]

where does the math come into it?

Could Be the Money You spend on a Trainer who after months gets 'No results' whatsoever or worse real Med Bills for injuries ???

[Armed&Dangerous]

I'd rather take advice from Jay Cutler than Trainer Tim who is 120lb's and did a 12 week course thank-you very much.


Me To Pal !! But in the real world We aim at getting the Best available .



I think that sums it up well.



Your Point Is ??




Couldn't agree more!

" "

[blapblapblow]

Let Me make it easy for You Yanks to Understand lol.
If You were Sick would You go to a MD / Doc with a Uni Degree or would You go to a Bloke who hanged around the Hospital a Lot and new a bit ??????

When i'm sick i just go to the medicine section of any grocery store and pick something up, because ANY DR regardless of what degree they have, or what school they went to, can right a simple prescription, so easy to do

[neutrolizr]

As a few said, if you're good in the gym, if you're good enough to train, then get certified.

The reasons are simple and if you fight it, you're just punching air.

1. Credibility. You took the time to do it. It might just be a piece of paper, but you might have learned something (god forbid) something along the way, and PROVED your professionalism outside of your gym. Fight it, but it's a losing battle.

2. Liability. I saw a post here where someone made the ridiculous remark, "a client paying under the table knows the risk, screw em". Nice...that right there means you should NOT be a trainer. We do this not for our EGO, we do it because it's our passion to pass along and if we're smart as well, we'll make a pretty penny along the way. Win Win for everyone.

You wont be insured if you're not certified. You'll never be a viable company, you'll never be a viable entity or personality in the industry. Go ahead, fight it....but its worth the few months to show what you're made of and get that piece of paper.

3. Consumers expect it. Anyone who researches PT's, or has been wanting to use one, knows and understands there are certs out there. do you really think they'll pick an uninsured, uncertified PERSON (not trainer, trainers are certified) to train them?

Yep, some trainers without certs are definitely better than some with certs...but the reality and the real world expects it. Otherwise you're just punching air and stamping your feet about all you know.

Put up, or shut up....then go make your money, show us all.

[jdmalm123]

Good post, neutrolizr, reps to follow.

Just an example what's out there when a client researches "How to Choose a Personal Trainer"

How to Choose a Personal Trainer
http://www.quackwatch.org/04Consumer...n/trainer.html
Donald Evans, B.Sc.
Hiring a personal trainer may once have seemed to be only a luxury that the rich and famous could afford. These days, anyone with a little expendable income has the power to enlist the assistance of a personal trainer. A qualified trainer can assess individual fitness, create goals based on the status of that assessment, and motivate the client to adhere to the program as outlined. A proper program should address both the exercise and nutritional components of the person's lifestyle.
This article describes the credentials you should consider when seeking a personal trainer. Professionalism, experience, and a personality compatible with that of the client are also important and can be assessed asking a few simple questions.
Academic Degrees
First and foremost, a professional trainer should have a bachelor's, master's or doctoral degree in exercise science, kinesiology, exercise physiology, physical education, sport management. or something similar. Also, if you are unfamiliar with the university that granted the degree, make sure it is accredited by an agency recognized by the U.S. Secretary of Education. Accreditation ensures that the program your trainer completed has met proper standards for course content and academic rigor. Feel free to visit the university's Web page where you can read course descriptions of the classes taken by your trainer. The degree is an assurance that the trainer did not enter the profession on a whim or as a fly-by-night endeavor. Proper training requires somewhere between 2,000-3,000 hours of in-class instruction, many exams and research papers, as well as much outside studying and writing. A normal time frame for completion is between four to six years that provide a solid background in human anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, and exercise prescription techniques.
Certification
Personal trainer certification is another critical element in crafting a knowledgeable trainer. Due to an absence of government regulation, many certifying bodies exist. Your best bet is to find a trainer who is certified by one of the following:
? Aerobic and Fitness Association of America (AFAA)
? American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM)
? American Council on Exercise (ACE)
? Cooper Institute for Aerobics Research (CIAR)
? International Sports Sciences Association (ISSA)
? National Academy of Sports Medicine (NASM)
? National Council of Strength & Fitness (NCSF)
? National Federation of Professional Trainers (NFPT)
? National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA)
There may be other quality agencies; however, those listed above are the most respected in the field. These certifications ensure that the trainer has demonstrated basic knowledge of anatomy and physiology, exercise prescription, nutrition, and responsibility to the client. Valid CPR certification is generally required in order to sit for the exams, and most of these certifying bodies require continuing education credits every year or two to keep certification current. Professional liability insurance is often offered at reduced rates to members as well.
Finally, do not accept as legitimate any certification that allows the individual to take the exam at home. Some fringe agencies require only a 70% or higher score even though the exam is taken at home. There is no way to ensure that the trainer in question actually took the exam.
Degree vs. Certification
Ideally, your trainer should have both, adhering to the standards discussed above. The degree requires a more in-depth and complete approach to the academic subjects in question. For example, a college human anatomy course will require both a lecture and laboratory component. On average, a 16-week semester will have 130 hours of combined in-class instruction as well as roughly 6-12 exams, depending on the class instructor. Most personal training texts devote one chapter to each subject, and a limited number of questions pertain to each on the actual certification exam. Certification tests also cover various training techniques, as well as information related to client issues. If you are going to spend between $30 to $120 per hour, find a degreed and certified trainer and make the most of your hard-earned money.
Nutrition Credentials
No training program is complete without proper nutrition. The quantity and types of nutrients consumed weigh heavily on the outcome of your program. Trainers with a Registered Dietitian (RD) credential from the American Dietetic Association should be able to provide in-depth nutrition advice. However, a Registered Dietetic Technician (DTR) credential or an associate or bachelor's degree in nutrition from an accredited institution of higher learning may be sufficient for providing basic dietary guidelines. Work experience in the field of nutrition is also a plus. These additional credentials in nutrition should be considered as an adjunct to, but not in place of, the aforementioned exercise science degree and personal trainer certification.
Exercise Standards
In 1998, the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) recommended the following guidelines for healthy adults:
? Mode of activity: Any activity that uses large muscle groups that can be continuously maintained. Examples include walking, jogging, running, swimming, skating, bicycling, rowing, cross-country skiing, rope jumping, jazzercise, dancing of various kinds, and other rhythmic activities.
? Frequency: 3 to 5 days a week.
? Intensity: 55%/65% to 90% of maximum heart rate. (Maximum heart rate is approximately 220 minus the person's age.)
? Duration: 20 to 60 minutes of continuous or intermittent aerobic activity. (Intermittent means bouts of 10-minutes or more accumulated through the day.)
? Resistance training: Strength training of moderate intensity, with one set of 8 to 12 repetitions of 8 to 10 exercises that condition the major muscle groups 2 or 3 days per week.
? Flexibility training: Sufficient to develop and maintain range of motion; a minimum of 2 or 3 days per week.
What You Should Expect
Many trainers have a personal philosophy about the best way to develop their client programs. However, during the first meeting, the trainer should explore your health history, fitness goals, and any exercise preferences. You may also be asked to complete several forms:
? Informed consent. This should outline the benefits and risks of engaging in an exercise program and states that the client accepts the said conditions without any undue deceit or coercion. It is required by law where program participants may be exposed to some type of harm, be it physical, psychological, or other. Potential clients are advised to read it carefully. Signing the document renders it legally binding.
? Health history form. This will contain questions regarding past and current medical problems, family history of disease, and possible risk factors which are contraindicated with exercise. Truthful responses will assist the trainer greatly.
? Physician approval. Although not absolutely required for apparently healthy individuals, it is prudent for many people to discuss their training plans with a knowledgeable physician. A good trainer requires written approval from a physician.
Once clearance has been secured, the trainer may ask you to perform several tests to provide a baseline information about your levels of flexibility, muscular strength, muscular endurance, and cardiorespiratory endurance. The test areas may include stretching, lifting weights, walking on the treadmill, using the stationary bicycle, and taking a body-fat percentage using skinfold calipers. The initial interview and tests will govern the type of exercise, equipment, and level of intensity that are used.
Warning Signs
Although the majority of reputable trainers abide by a code of ethics and professional standards, there will always be those who are less than qualified. In addition, some qualified trainers may engage in unethical practices. Be highly skeptical if your trainer:
? Insists on a workout during the first meeting. Most personal training sessions last either 30 or 60 minutes. This initial meeting should be used to explore what you need and process any necessary paperwork.
? Tries to sell you dietary supplements. If the client chooses to use supplements, they are best obtained from a retail store.
? Advises everyone to use vitamins, protein supplements, amino acid concoctions, or other dubious "ergogenic aids."
? Says that his or her style of training is the ONLY way to get results. Although self-confidence is a positive attribute, it is incorrect to imply that there is only one way to achieve results.
? Is hesitant to provide you with proof of credentials or references. This is probably a sign that the trainer's credentials are less than credible.
? Is uninsured. Liability insurance is a must for every personal trainer.
? Is not punctual about appointments, or is unavailable via telephone or email. A professional trainer should be punctual and available to answer client questions.
? Is unclear about the cancellation policy. Clients have a right to know how much time they have to cancel a session in advance without being obligated to pay the fee.
? Does not keep up with current research in the field of exercise science. It is important to keep abreast of any advances or new developments in this ever-changing profession. This can be done by taking accredited continuing education courses and reading journals such as The Physician and Sports Medicine, the Journal of Applied Physiology, the Journal of Sports Medicine, JAMA, and the Journal of the American Dietetic Association.
? Does not practice what he/she preaches. Those who do not train their own body may lack the dedication needed to inspire their clients.

[dshinton]

I just wanted to add my $0.02 before this topics floats away.

For the last 13 years I have been in the software industry and we have the exactly same argument between those with credentials (degrees & certs) and those without. It starts off by someone with a credentials saying that you need credentials to be good; and then someone without credentials saying, "I'm good and I don't have a degree. Disproof by example. I win". Of course that is never the end of it.

Here are some facts about credentials (I think most of them have been touched on already):

1. Credentials don't mean you are good at your job

2. Credentials only demonstrate that at some point in the past, you had enough book knowledge to pass the test

3. The lack of credentials may hold you back in your career

4. The more credentials you have, the more someone will assume that you know what you are talking about

5. You always learn something new when studying for a test

The bottom line is that getting a credential encourages you to live up to your potential, helps ease the minds of your customers, and can be the foot in the door on a new opportunity. You can be very successful without them, but who knows how much more successful you could have been if you had them.

One last side note. The more you know about a topic, the more you realize you don't know. Almost every time I hear someone say "I know everything about X", they are self-taught, have no credentials, and have only studied the practical application of X. That is far from everything.

[blapblapblow]

anybody can pass a test, and get certified. Sure it's just a piece of paper, because that's what it is, a piece of paper.

That's why all this blabber about "what certification is the best" is a joke.

[robplaysgeetar]

I recently had a PT tell me that I should get certified, but I think that I am going to continue giving advice to people if they ask for it and I know the answer.

[sandmanse7en]

I agree that going through the training is crucial. The body is an inticate system that should be understood so that any variations can be understood and compensated for. It does also take years of training yourself to understand all of the options when it comes to exercises that best suit the individual. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it takes a combination of experience and Certification. I was a Combat Medic and still learned some anatomy while getting my cert with ISSA.

[sandmanse7en]

I don't think that a BA or better really guarantee a good trainer, I don't have a degree but do have a CNA, RC, and Psych Tech II as well as having worked as a Critical Care Tech, and a 91B in the US Army totalling I worked for over 6 years in healthcare which accounts for more than some degree which had very little practical application.

[carl.c]

So what you are saying is you didnt need your medic training to understand where to start treating the wounded and no on going education was needed to advance your knowledge of treatment of the wounded?

[blapblapblow]

I wonder if i should fee sorry for all the trainers out there who brag about having a degree and a certification, and neither piece of paper has gotten them nowhere as a trainer, pretty much a bust

But i do give props out there to the trainers who just have a certification and have gone off to do very well for themselves

just don't know what all the hype is about having a degree when it comes to a PT? It's usually the trainers who wasted money on a degree to talk down on the trainers who just have a certification. Maybe the trainers with a degree feel they are better because they have one?

A trainer only needs a certification, if anything. No degree is needed to become successful as a trainer