Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss

[Trillios]

Doesn't matter, you also should just calm down, chill out eat and lift hard and heavy....this isn't that complicated.

This and if you really want to get picky...carbs for energy or fat for satiety..or do a 50/50 split for both.

[determined4000]

This and if you really want to get picky...carbs for energy or fat for satiety..or do a 50/50 split for both.

???
Why? Do calories from calories not provide energy? Is 200cals of sweet potato no more filling than 200cals of nuts?

[Trillios]

???
Why? Do calories from calories not provide energy? Is 200cals of sweet potato no more filling than 200cals of nuts?

Only speaking from experience...we all know calories = energy but the intensity/pump at the gym for myself has always been better when there are more carbs vs fats. Unless you're in ketosis you're rarely going to benefit from getting energy (in comparison to carb energy) from fats. Try low carbing it for a while with a higher fat intake. Sure you'll hold less water and "look" leaner but you'll suffer in the gym IMO. Satiety is a different topic. I'm not going to go through the whole fat absorption deal but I personally feel fuller on fats because of my ridiculous carb cravings (the more of them I eat the more I want).

[determined4000]

Only speaking from experience...we all know calories = energy but the intensity/pump at the gym for myself has always been better when there are more carbs vs fats. Unless you're in ketosis you're rarely going to benefit from getting energy (in comparison to carb energy) from fats. Try low carbing it for a while with a higher fat intake. Sure you'll hold less water and "look" leaner but you'll suffer in the gym IMO. Satiety is a different topic. I'm not going to go through the whole fat absorption deal but I personally feel fuller on fats because of my ridiculous carb cravings (the more of them I eat the more I want).

Eating carbs=wanting carbs depending on source
Obviously, simple carbs/ high sugar carbs will be less filling and the more you eat them the more you crave something sweet. But certain carbs have extremely high levels of satiety (like potatoes). They are much higher than other complex carbs say a cereal or rice, and about 2x as high as eggs and 4x as high as nuts.
A far as energy, yes carbs will probably provide you with a better burst of energy but for someone who isnt low carbing (maintaining or bulking) exchanging carbs and fat may not have a large difference as far as energy levels (and as you said, some people will function better on carbs and vice versa).

[RoWdY_RuFf_BoY]

I'm having a hard time sticking to my diet. I've been doing IF for awhile now but trying to do a consistent calorie intake for more than 1.5 weeks is super hard for me.

I was doing 1860 a day and would be strict for a week but I always stuff up and binge for a day or two (eating 4 - 5k calories).

At the moment, my bodyfat seems to be stable at about 12-14% even with the binge but I want to get to 10% by start of December so I've revised my diet plan and are as follows:

I want to average 1860~ a day (figure taken from Lyle, 12 * bodyweight(155) = 1860)

I would alternate between,

3000 calories on one day
500 - 1000 calories on other day (will take about 4 scoops of protein and oats), basically just one meal.

And add 500 extra calories on the days I work (work at a warehouse picking boxes).

I workout 5 times a week Mon - Fri with 30 minutes cardio after training (about 220~ calories burned).

I can't seem to handle being on low calories everyday so maybe high-low days might work? I just fasted for a whole day with nothing but coffee and lots of water. I drink about 5 - 6L a day right now.

Any thoughts or opinions on my plan? Cheers

[Bovis23]

Hi guys. There is said to be good benefit of fasted weight training (just bcaas) when it comes to fat burning. but when you eat your PWO carbs, isn't your body incapable of burning fay when there is high insulin? therefore wouldnt whey pre workout outwhey (lololol) the benefits of added fat burning for just the duration of the workout? thanks

[zmustang]

Hi guys. There is said to be good benefit of fasted weight training (just bcaas) when it comes to fat burning. but when you eat your PWO carbs, isn't your body incapable of burning fay when there is high insulin? therefore wouldnt whey pre workout outwhey (lololol) the benefits of added fat burning for just the duration of the workout? thanks

wow haha

[doctapeppa]

I'm having a hard time sticking to my diet. I've been doing IF for awhile now but trying to do a consistent calorie intake for more than 1.5 weeks is super hard for me.

I was doing 1860 a day and would be strict for a week but I always stuff up and binge for a day or two (eating 4 - 5k calories).

At the moment, my bodyfat seems to be stable at about 12-14% even with the binge but I want to get to 10% by start of December so I've revised my diet plan and are as follows:

I want to average 1860~ a day (figure taken from Lyle, 12 * bodyweight(155) = 1860)

I would alternate between,

3000 calories on one day
500 - 1000 calories on other day (will take about 4 scoops of protein and oats), basically just one meal.

And add 500 extra calories on the days I work (work at a warehouse picking boxes).

I workout 5 times a week Mon - Fri with 30 minutes cardio after training (about 220~ calories burned).

I can't seem to handle being on low calories everyday so maybe high-low days might work? I just fasted for a whole day with nothing but coffee and lots of water. I drink about 5 - 6L a day right now.

Any thoughts or opinions on my plan? Cheers

Why don't you try the leangains system? http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

Also, not sure what kind of split you are doing with 5 days, but remember your muscles need rest. Also, the amount of calories you are eating seem pretty low for someone with an active job who's working out 5 times a week. This is very likely what's leading you to binge.

Hi guys. There is said to be good benefit of fasted weight training (just bcaas) when it comes to fat burning. but when you eat your PWO carbs, isn't your body incapable of burning fay when there is high insulin? therefore wouldnt whey pre workout outwhey (lololol) the benefits of added fat burning for just the duration of the workout? thanks

Yes, insulin basically puts a halt to fat burning but it doesn't matter because what happens with insulin over a 24 hour period is whey* more important. Also, keep in mind that insulin is not only needed for shuttling glucose into your muscles after a workout but it is intimately involved in muscle synthesis. By working out in a fasted state you are making your muscles more sensitive to the effects of insulin so that when you finally do eat you get more nutrients into your muscles than you would if you would have eaten pre workout (in theory, at least).

Martin just tweeted this on insulin. It might be a good read for you. http://weightology.net/?p=407

[RoWdY_RuFf_BoY]

Why don't you try the leangains system? http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

Also, not sure what kind of split you are doing with 5 days, but remember your muscles need rest. Also, the amount of calories you are eating seem pretty low for someone with an active job who's working out 5 times a week. This is very likely what's leading you to binge.

I actually am and have been following Leangains IF for awhile now. I've been training fasted etc...

My 5 day split is from following the MAX OT structure which is 5 days a week, have been getting amazing results. I've tried many different splits/programs(HST/SS/etc) in the past and MAX OT have given me the best results and I love working out frequently.

Though your comment about my calories being low for someone with an active job seems to have hit home, maybe I need to add an extra 1000 calories to those days, thanks for pointing that out, will re-evaluate that.

[DenD359]

Highly doubt it. I have to DE (dynamic effort) days, so it's not like all my training is super heavy every day. I actually haven't done any heavy deads since I maxed out, I've been doing speed deads and such. (my training was switched up a bit)

It's not like I never have energy, I just don't have any until I start eating. I find that odd, considering that it's only starting to happen now. When I first started, I felt great.



True.

I'm starting to develop sleep problems too, it's been going on for a week or 2 now. Going to start deloading at the gym for a week and see how that goes, I really hope it's not the diet that's causing this because I love IF

[doctapeppa]

I'm starting to develop sleep problems too, it's been going on for a week or 2 now. Going to start deloading at the gym for a week and see how that goes, I really hope it's not the diet that's causing this because I love IF

Fasting is known to cause sleep problems. The main reason is that one of the hormones that is increased while you fast is adrenaline. The bigger your caloric deficit and the longer you have been fasting for the more adrenaline you have in your bloodstream. You should get used to this as time goes by but there are some things you can try as well.

- Increase your calories. If you are in a big caloric deficit you may need to ease up on it a bit and loose weight a bit slower.

- If you are starting your fast earlier in the day instead of eating your last meal before bed then moving your feeding window later may help as well because while you are in bed you haven't been fasted for long and don't have much adrenaline yet.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

[g37SkylineGTR]

Would it be okay to have a post workout only protein shake? Or just skip that and go directly into the lage pwo meal. I was thinking of having a shake and 30 minutes later the meal. Thanks

[g37SkylineGTR]

^^^ need some input from the IF gurus

[MarkVI]

^^^ need some input from the IF gurus

Dude, it doesn't matter. Just chill and eat something after you lift.

[malibu2008]

been IFing for 8 months...to recover from anorexia... no lifting besides the past month with body weight only.... before and after

first one before
second one after, aka today

[determined4000]

been IFing for 8 months...to recover from anorexia... no lifting besides the past month with body weight only.... before and after

first one before
second one after, aka today

Nice progress.
Do you know what weight and calories were before and after?
What type of progress have you seen in strength (number of pushups/pullups/other bw exercises)?

[malibu2008]

Nice progress.
Do you know what weight and calories were before and after?
What type of progress have you seen in strength (number of pushups/pullups/other bw exercises)?

haha well having psteoporosis, in february i was in immobilizers on my knees, thus i didnt move at all, even a bath, for 8 weeks. prior to that i was restricted(on my own will) from exercise. i have a 8hr desk job and when i finally got my head out of my ass and trusted nutrition i began eating about 3000 cals a day at first(with IF) and had to move up to around 4500+ for a few weeks a one poitn and now i stay the same(the last month of so) regardless of macros/cals

haha when i began body weight i could do 0 guy push ups, 0 pull ups, 0 chin ups, and only like 15 seconds of squats. now i can do 4 chin ups, 4-5 pull ups, 3 sets of one min tabata body squats, lunges....MY BONES WORK, my joints move without pain and there is no 'weight lifting' at all. i am still VERY cautious about pushing my bones/body much so i only do bodyweight stuff twice a week. no BCAA's, just food and a lot, in 8 hours. it forces me to eat big and eat well.

i have a blog http://malpaz.wordpress.com/ with more pics and progress stuff. i am trying to develop a ED recovery strategy to reach out to people and explain that accepting and trustingyour body and food is the key to recovery. IF usng martins protocol has taught me that

my lowest was around the upper 80'slbs (i am 5'8) but i dont have pics from this time im willing to post. in the before pic here i am around 100 and the after(now) i range between 124-126 so i have put on over 20lbs in 8+ months

[Fire8085]

so wat u gusy r sayin is that if i eat like 2,000 calories of gatorade i will get ripped?

u guys are so wrong!!!!


Just joking guys, haven't been in this thread in a while. Good to see it alive and kicking.

I have a few people on IF diets and they have been extremely successful.

Bulking up for the winter, then starting a cut Mayish for myself. Hoping to add at least 10lbs lean mass...

[Necrodox]

I was curious to find out, would this whole food liquid multivtamin break my fast in the morning?

http://tinyurl.com/22kxrug

Thanks in advance!

[determined4000]

I was curious to find out, would this whole food liquid multivtamin break my fast in the morning?

http://tinyurl.com/22kxrug

Thanks in advance!

20cals seems on the high side
And you should be taking vitamins with food anyways

[Necrodox]

Well the liquid multi I usually have in the morning with cereal and an egg, however I plan on starting Lean Gains 16 hour fasting and 8 hour feeding system.

I plan on feeding from 12PM to 8PM and fasting from 8PM to 12PM.

[determined4000]

Well the liquid multi I usually have in the morning with cereal and an egg, however I plan on starting Lean Gains 16 hour fasting and 8 hour feeding system.

I plan on feeding from 12PM to 8PM and fasting from 8PM to 12PM.

then why the **** are you asking if it would break the fast if you are eating cereal and an egg????

[Necrodox]

then why the **** are you asking if it would break the fast if you are eating cereal and an egg????

I said I usually took the multi vitamin with an egg and cereal (before I started this 16 hour fasting phase), I'm trying to find out if taking JUST the multi vitamin in the morning would break the fast for the rest of the day.

[determined4000]

I said I usually took the multi vitamin with an egg and cereal (before I started this 16 hour fasting phase), I'm trying to find out if taking JUST the multi vitamin in the morning would break the fast for the rest of the day.

then.... refer to my original answer

[Necrodox]

I wasn't entirely sure given the fact that it wasn't a direct yes or no, it was moreover a cliff hanger type answer haha.

But if it'll break the fast I suppose I can take my multi vitamin at a different time during the day, it doesn't matter when I take my multi vitamin right? I'd plan on taking it at 12PM with my peanut butter sandwhich.

[nondualism]

Doesn't matter, you also should just calm down, chill out eat and lift hard and heavy....this isn't that complicated.

This. Keep protein high - other than that, macros are not so important.

[Martin Berkhan]

???
Why? Do calories from calories not provide energy? Is 200cals of sweet potato no more filling than 200cals of nuts?

Generally speaking, judging by studies that is, carbs satiate better than fat in the short-term (>4 hrs). After 4 hrs, IIRC, one study suggested that a satiety hormone (CCK) rises & remains higher after fats. That is, there's a delayed type of fullness with fats. Protein wins out by a large margin on pretty much every parameter/hormone measured (NPY, CCK, PYY, etc).

One problem with these type of studies however, is that they're all rather short-term; I think the longest experiment of this type (measuring appetite/fullness from different macronutrients) was no more than 6 hrs or thereabouts. At least that was my impression when I looked into it a few years ago.

Another factor which is a huge confounder that needs to be considered when applying this to real life, is that other factors like food volume, GI, and food type are very important as well. Studies examining this has almost always been done with liquids in order to not confound the results, i.e. 400 kcal worth of carbs or fat in a liquid solution of 500 mg water followed by blood tests and Visusal Analog Scale-testing (basically a questionnaire, "How full are you now?", etc), every 2 hrs, etc.

In practice, this means that 600 kcal of salmon, whole eggs & broccolli (high protein, high fat) would satiate better in both short and long-term than cereal, skim milk and whey protein (high protein, high carb) even if the latter example should win out "on paper" so to speak.

[doctapeppa]

Generally speaking, judging by studies that is, carbs satiate better than fat in the short-term (>4 hrs). After 4 hrs, IIRC, one study suggested that a satiety hormone (CCK) rises & remains higher after fats. That is, there's a delayed type of fullness with fats. Protein wins out by a large margin on pretty much every parameter/hormone measured (NPY, CCK, PYY, etc).

One problem with these type of studies however, is that they're all rather short-term; I think the longest experiment of this type (measuring appetite/fullness from different macronutrients) was no more than 6 hrs or thereabouts. At least that was my impression when I looked into it a few years ago.

Another factor which is a huge confounder that needs to be considered when applying this to real life, is that other factors like food volume, GI, and food type are very important as well. Studies examining this has almost always been done with liquids in order to not confound the results, i.e. 400 kcal worth of carbs or fat in a liquid solution of 500 mg water followed by blood tests and Visusal Analog Scale-testing (basically a questionnaire, "How full are you now?", etc), every 2 hrs, etc.

In practice, this means that 600 kcal of salmon, whole eggs & broccolli (high protein, high fat) would satiate better in both short and long-term than cereal, skim milk and whey protein (high protein, high carb) even if the latter example should win out "on paper" so to speak.

Repped.

[wobemaster]

Generally speaking, judging by studies that is, carbs satiate better than fat in the short-term (>4 hrs). After 4 hrs, IIRC, one study suggested that a satiety hormone (CCK) rises & remains higher after fats. That is, there's a delayed type of fullness with fats. Protein wins out by a large margin on pretty much every parameter/hormone measured (NPY, CCK, PYY, etc).

One problem with these type of studies however, is that they're all rather short-term; I think the longest experiment of this type (measuring appetite/fullness from different macronutrients) was no more than 6 hrs or thereabouts. At least that was my impression when I looked into it a few years ago.

Another factor which is a huge confounder that needs to be considered when applying this to real life, is that other factors like food volume, GI, and food type are very important as well. Studies examining this has almost always been done with liquids in order to not confound the results, i.e. 400 kcal worth of carbs or fat in a liquid solution of 500 mg water followed by blood tests and Visusal Analog Scale-testing (basically a questionnaire, "How full are you now?", etc), every 2 hrs, etc.

In practice, this means that 600 kcal of salmon, whole eggs & broccolli (high protein, high fat) would satiate better in both short and long-term than cereal, skim milk and whey protein (high protein, high carb) even if the latter example should win out "on paper" so to speak.

Good post.

Anecdotally, I've found carbs to be a 'switch' in terms of short term hunger. While protein is clearly the most filling, when eating a protein+fat meal the hunger dampening takes some time, 30-60mins for me usually, to really set in. Adding even 10-20g worth of carbs to the meal shuts hunger off much faster.

[iBUFFet]

The only time I can schedule my weight training is in the morning. Should I eat/drink anything before my workout, ie protein shake? I have my big meal after this, and then i fast again until my next feed which is the post workout meal next day.