Training split/frequency

[grubman]

Dirklift, no need to go all the way to failure. I have been lifting for over 2 years now and have never one time had a spotter for bench press. I even do my AMRAP testing (as many reps as possible) without a spotter. With practice you should have a pretty good idea when you won’t be able to get another rep because it is going up real slow so you just stop then.

^^^what he said. 25 years ago muscle & fitness magazine told us to go to failure...so that’s what everyone did. Fortunately we’ve learned a lot since then.

[Jtbny]

Dirklift, no need to go all the way to failure. I have been lifting for over 2 years now and have never one time had a spotter for bench press. I even do my AMRAP testing (as many reps as possible) without a spotter. With practice you should have a pretty good idea when you won’t be able to get another rep because it is going up real slow so you just stop then.

No offense but I'll have to disagree here. True, one doesn't always need a spotter but there are times one is a good idea. I'm currently running a 5x5 for my bench and knew this weight bump could be the one I didn't get all 5 sets. I had a spotter for the sets and sure enough at set 3 I hit 4 for the remainder of the sets. Had I not had a spotter I would have likely stopped at 3 reps each set, but knowing I was OK, I went for the fourth each time and was able to safely grind the rep out. So to your point, a spotter isn't essential for every attempt but one can allow security to push the sets some. Not a bad idea.

[DirkLift]

Thanks guys. I guess that's what I do anyway. I aim for 12 reps, but by about rep 10 I feel like I won't be able to do the next one, so stop - especially by the second and third set. But it's true, most of my knowledge is 25+ years old, which is why I joined here today.

Still, even if it's not to failure, I think I'm going to push my chest harder on a 2-day split vs the full body. Might alternate between the 2 programs month by month and see which one feels better for me.

[scrossmaggard]

No offense but I'll have to disagree here. True, one doesn't always need a spotter but there are times one is a good idea. I'm currently running a 5x5 for my bench and knew this weight bump could be the one I didn't get all 5 sets. I had a spotter for the sets and sure enough at set 3 I hit 4 for the remainder of the sets. Had I not had a spotter I would have likely stopped at 3 reps each set, but knowing I was OK, I went for the fourth each time and was able to safely grind the rep out. So to your point, a spotter isn't essential for every attempt but one can allow security to push the sets some. Not a bad idea.

Good point, I would have never attempted 315 for 6x3 without a spotter and he actually pushed me to 6 reps on last 2 set. Would not have happened without. I see how this is beneficial in 1RM training and busting out sets of 5,3, and 1 for sure.

[Jtbny]

Good point, I would have never attempted 315 for 6x3 without a spotter and he actually pushed me to 6 reps on last 2 set. Would not have happened without. I see how this is beneficial in 1RM training and busting out sets of 5,3, and 1 for sure.

And before the argument is made that's purely strength related; if I'm stronger on BB bench I use heavier DBs for sets of 12.


Scross - that's a good bench man. Should be proud.

[scrossmaggard]

Scross - that's a good bench man. Should be proud.

Many thanks mister.

[tblodg15]

No offense but I'll have to disagree here. True, one doesn't always need a spotter but there are times one is a good idea.

I didn’t say anything about him not needing a spotter. I said that going all the way to failure was not needed and if you disagree with that then fine we will agree to disagree. But there is a lot of evidence that suggests not only is going to failure not necessary but can actually hurt performance if the associated fatigue is not handled properly.

[Jtbny]

I didn’t say anything about him not needing a spotter. I said that going all the way to failure was not needed and if you disagree with that then fine we will agree to disagree. But there is a lot of evidence that suggests not only is going to failure not necessary but can actually hurt performance if the associated fatigue is not handled properly.

What you said is you don't ever use/need a spotter. I pointed out that isn't always the case and gave an example of when a spotter is useful. What part are you disputing?

What practical evidence do you have under the bar? What is the definition of "failure"? Form failure or failing an attempt?

[Mark1T]

It helps I have tons of "toys" to play with so I'm never bored. For example if I don't feel like hitting my upper back via rows I do farmers walks with the proper implements that allow me to load up 200+ per handle and do 60 feet runs. I look to do two movements per bodypart (legs,chest,back,shoulders) each session with smaller body part exercises supersetted in (curls,tris, side/rear delts ect), but will do a bit more on Sat/Sun because I have more time. All in all I feel 100% better than I ever did doing any powerlifting split and I'm equally as strong and am still relatively lean (for me).

Two movements per bodypart makes even more sense. Obviously that allows you to change up often per week, but still keep up with progression.

I have to think about a strategy for me based on that. So, you are still doing some bodybuilding type movements like curls and tris, laterals, etc., which is what I would do.

Thanks.

[Jtbny]

Two movements per bodypart makes even more sense. Obviously that allows you to change up often per week, but still keep up with progression.

I have to think about a strategy for me based on that. So, you are still doing some bodybuilding type movements like curls and tris, laterals, etc., which is what I would do.

Thanks.

Yup, I superset all of those in. Some would accuse me of bodybuilding now

[Mark1T]

Yup, I superset all of those in. Some would accuse me of bodybuilding now

I was thinking that - (in real life)

[tblodg15]

What you said is you don't ever use/need a spotter. I pointed out that isn't always the case and gave an example of when a spotter is useful. What part are you disputing?

What practical evidence do you have under the bar? What is the definition of "failure"? Form failure or failing an attempt?

What I said was that going to failure is not necessary and to give an example I mentioned that I personally don’t use a spotter. I didn’t tell him not to use a spotter which I thought you were implying.

The definition of failure in this context is failing to complete the final rep - hence the need for a spotter. The practical evidence I have for avoiding failure is most solid programs nowadays prescribe RPE’s in the 7-9.

Personally when I started lifting two years ago at 49 years old I worked out like I did back in high school and took nearly every set to failure (was using a machine at the Y for bench press so didn’t need a spotter) I saw progress going in and working as hard as I could trying to squeeze out another rep wherever possible and failing when I couldn’t. But when I switched to block programming I am now starting off the block leaving reps in the tank which allowed me to increase my frequency and not build up fatigue faster than I could recover from it. Throughout the block I am increasing intensity or reps with a planned progression until my RPE’s are up to 9 or 9.5, then deload and start over with a new block. Using this “work smarter and not harder” approach I am making much better progress than I was taking everything to failure.

Lastly I didn’t mean to tell anyone not to use a spotter, especially when doing heavy doubles or singles. But that guy was doing reps in the 10-12 range which can be done safely without a spotter with any experience at all.

[scrossmaggard]

To add to all this, the perception of failure I use in my training, is when my strict perfect form fails=failure. Sure I can squeeze a rep or 2 extra after failing form, but at what cost? Injury? That’s my definition and my two cents.

[Michael3011]

I know a lot of people like doing full body, but...

1) How do you push yourself hard on say, the bench press, after exhausting yourself with heavy squats first?

2) Don't you still feel sore 2 days later?

Great question! I'm the same... 6 months in and my body still aches like mad!

[ElrondHubbard]

What PP said...and for what it’s worth, I do upper body first, then legs. I know the popular opinion is that leg compounds are more taxing so do them when you are fresh...but I’ve found I can move more weight after the benifits of being very warmed up and fully awake* AFTER upper body...AND since legs anhilate me, it’s better to be wiped out at the end of training than at the beginning. Win win for me.

*early AM lifter

I do bench first and squats second. I store my plates at floor level, so whenever I adjust the weight on the bar, I’m doing double duty as a squat warmup movement.

I’m not sure that getting fatigued from a previous set really makes much difference from a training standpoint, as long as moving a specific number is less important than working the muscle. I can see other situations where it would be more important.

[ElrondHubbard]

No offense but I'll have to disagree here. True, one doesn't always need a spotter but there are times one is a good idea. I'm currently running a 5x5 for my bench and knew this weight bump could be the one I didn't get all 5 sets. I had a spotter for the sets and sure enough at set 3 I hit 4 for the remainder of the sets. Had I not had a spotter I would have likely stopped at 3 reps each set, but knowing I was OK, I went for the fourth each time and was able to safely grind the rep out. So to your point, a spotter isn't essential for every attempt but one can allow security to push the sets some. Not a bad idea.

Those of us who work out at home have to get used to a habitual lack of a spotter. Early on I perfected the roll of shame. That became a big incentive to building my own rack, and now I wouldn’t even consider benching without the safety bars.

But if you’re at a gym with spotters available, no reason not to take advantage of them.

[tblodg15]

Great question! I'm the same... 6 months in and my body still aches like mad!

A few people responded to his question. Once your body gets used to the increased frequency there is actually less soreness associated with a full body program than there is with a split.

[DirkLift]

Well, today I did squats at the end and it made all the other exercises easier, so that's a good change for me. I've also realized that my workout is only 30-40 minutes long, depending on how busy the gym is, so there's ample opportunity for me to add a second chest exercise and deadlifts to my routine while still sticking to a full body workout.

And I know 10-12 reps is a lot, but I thought to keep it high in the beginning and will decrease the reps in a month or two from now.

[grubman]

Well, today I did squats at the end and it made all the other exercises easier, so that's a good change for me. I've also realized that my workout is only 30-40 minutes long, depending on how busy the gym is, so there's ample opportunity for me to add a second chest exercise and deadlifts to my routine while still sticking to a full body workout.

And I know 10-12 reps is a lot, but I thought to keep it high in the beginning and will decrease the reps in a month or two from now.

Nothing wrong with 10-12 rep ranges. You can still be strong in a different rep range. The majority of my excercises are in the 10-12 rep range, with only a couple in the 8-10, and a few in the 12-15. Of course a variety is always good.

[Jtbny]

Those of us who work out at home have to get used to a habitual lack of a spotter. Early on I perfected the roll of shame. That became a big incentive to building my own rack, and now I wouldn’t even consider benching without the safety bars.

But if you’re at a gym with spotters available, no reason not to take advantage of them.

Sure, not having a spotter is OK and if one is working in the 8-12 rep range probably not necessary. Even now if I have to I'll bench w/o one but it changes what my rep scheme/weight will look like. It also can have an effect on the tightness of my set up.

Nothing wrong with 10-12 rep ranges. You can still be strong in a different rep range. The majority of my excercises are in the 10-12 rep range, with only a couple in the 8-10, and a few in the 12-15. Of course a variety is always good.

Absolutely, something to be said about a good work capacity. Won't be as strong as you could be if you worked in the lower rep ranges 1-5 with greater intensity.

[grubman]

Sure, not having a spotter is OK and if one is working in the 8-12 rep range probably not necessary. Even now if I have to I'll bench w/o one but it changes what my rep scheme/weight will look like. It also can have an effect on the tightness of my set up.



Absolutely, something to be said about a good work capacity. Won't be as strong as you could be if you worked in the lower rep ranges 1-5 with greater intensity.

Agree. I’ve trained with more of a strength focus before. Just not my thing these days.

[scrossmaggard]

Sure, not having a spotter is OK and if one is working in the 8-12 rep range probably not necessary. Even now if I have to I'll bench w/o one but it changes what my rep scheme/weight will look like. It also can have an effect on the tightness of my set up.



Absolutely, something to be said about a good work capacity. Won't be as strong as you could be if you worked in the lower rep ranges 1-5 with greater intensity.

Absolutely, and I train on the 10-12 rep side of things. Totally different scheme set up at 3-5 reps and would want a spotter if so. Agree 100%.

[scrossmaggard]

Here is a question. My cardio days which are directly after each leg day. Today is a complete rest day. Would my cardio days hinder my leg development or would leg growth suffer because of this. Cardio is normally 20-30 treadmill walking/stair mill/elliptical, then abs, then 10-50m wind sprints, then 10-20 treadmill walking/stair mill/elliptical?

[tblodg15]

Here is a question. My cardio days which are directly after each leg day. Today is a complete rest day. Would my cardio days hinder my leg development or would leg growth suffer because of this. Cardio is normally 20-30 treadmill walking/stair mill/elliptical, then abs, then 10-50m wind sprints, then 10-20 treadmill walking/stair mill/elliptical?

I say no cardio will not hinder leg development as long as it is kept in the range of 30-45 min at a time for 3 days per week or so. Here are my legs at 51 years old after pumping an elliptical like a madman 3 days per week for 2 years and only 8 months of lifting weights for lower body:

Now of course genetics plays a role and I have always had thicker legs than the average guy. I was going to say maybe I am blessed with legs being a strong body part but actually it really isn't a blessing because my legs are covered up 100% of the time. Even at the gym or beach our shorts are long and none of that development is ever visible.

I do think someone who logs a lot of miles running or does excess cardio for hours in the gym could hinder leg development. And I definitely think even moderate cardio can possible hurt lower body strength progress but you mentioned development and leg growth. And most of us who start lifting in our 40's are doing it to get healthy and build some muscle, not to be strong in the gym so I personally don't focus on strength.

[gazmorton2000]

Enjoying this thread. I am going to up my training frequency to hit each body part twice a week and hopefully throw in a little cardio. Need to drop a little fat, although this month is full of birthdays which means meals out and cake!

I have altered things this week already after reading this so I hit back and biceps again yesterday for the second time and am about to go do Chest & maybe some abs, then back to Leg day tomorrow. That means I have hit everything twice this week except shoulders and legs. I will re-structure starting tomorrow for the next fortnight before I have a few days away at the end of Feb.

Also....trying to contribute more.

[scrossmaggard]

I say no cardio will not hinder leg development as long as it is kept in the range of 30-45 min at a time for 3 days per week or so. Here are my legs at 51 years old after pumping an elliptical like a madman 3 days per week for 2 years and only 8 months of lifting weights for lower body:

Now of course genetics plays a role and I have always had thicker legs than the average guy. I was going to say maybe I am blessed with legs being a strong body part but actually it really isn't a blessing because my legs are covered up 100% of the time. Even at the gym or beach our shorts are long and none of that development is ever visible.

Only 8 months? You’ve got some deep lines there. Have you previously rode a bike or frequently use the exercise bikes? I’ve seen some serious leg development on cyclist. I’d like to wear shorter shorts, but I’d hate to get the creep status. Actually workout mainly wearing sweat pants.

[scrossmaggard]

Enjoying this thread. I am going to up my training frequency to hit each body part twice a week and hopefully throw in a little cardio. Need to drop a little fat, although this month is full of birthdays which means meals out and cake!

I have altered things this week already after reading this so I hit back and biceps again yesterday for the second time and am about to go do Chest & maybe some abs, then back to Leg day tomorrow. That means I have hit everything twice this week except shoulders and legs. I will re-structure starting tomorrow for the next fortnight before I have a few days away at the end of Feb.

Also....trying to contribute more.

Repped! I just went through that in January and in 4 birthday parties, only had 2 pieces of Hawaiian pizza and 1 slice of cake.

[tblodg15]

Only 8 months? You’ve got some deep lines there. Have you previously rode a bike or frequently use the exercise bikes? I’ve seen some serious leg development on cyclist.

No cycling other than riding my bike to football practice and work in HS 35 years ago lol.

I am confident that some of my leg development is from the cardio on the elliptical. Like I said I pumped that thing like a madman for 2 years doing HIIT. I would pick a hill program and on the peaks I would pump as fast as I could and then back off during the valleys with heart rate in the 170’s and 180’s. A steady state walking or treadmill would not accomplish the same thing I don’t think.

This was all during my fat loss phase and as I got more serious about lifting and added in more sets I had to back off on the HIIT cardio because I was over training and getting stress headaches. I was able to up my lifting volume once I backed off and started going slower on the cardio which is fine because I am not trying to lose weight anymore. I only do cardio 1 day a week now and keep my pace consistent with a rolling hill program and my heart rate peaks in the 150’s.

[Jtbny]

Now of course genetics plays a role and I have always had thicker legs than the average guy. I was going to say maybe I am blessed with legs being a strong body part but actually it really isn't a blessing because my legs are covered up 100% of the time. Even at the gym or beach our shorts are long and none of that development is ever visible.

I do think someone who logs a lot of miles running or does excess cardio for hours in the gym could hinder leg development. And I definitely think even moderate cardio can possible hurt lower body strength progress but you mentioned development and leg growth. And most of us who start lifting in our 40's are doing it to get healthy and build some muscle, not to be strong in the gym so I personally don't focus on strength.

You've got good wheels.

"Strength is never a weakness" and being "strong in the gym" translates to being strong out of the gym. Personally, I think you can train for aesthetics, health, and strength. I like looking like I lift in street cloths.

[tblodg15]

You've got good wheels.

"Strength is never a weakness" and being "strong in the gym" translates to being strong out of the gym. Personally, I think you can train for aesthetics, health, and strength. I like looking like I lift in street cloths.

Thanks man. And that is a well said proposition for strength training. Actually I have been doing lower reps in my bench press lately as I do think it may be beneficial to try to build some strength while I can since I am already in my 50’s and it isn’t going to get any easier as I go.