AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part VI

[nzjase]

Hi Nightanole.

I have been reading this thread for a few weeks now and am looking to jump into AllPro from next week as I have just finished a 12 week Kris Gethin program (which is the first one I have ever completed) but have a few questions.

First some background. Prior to starting Kris' program I had never really worked out and was 98 kg (215lb) and approx 28% body fat at 6"1

As of today I am 87kg (192lb) and approx 23% BF.

1. I am starting AllPro with a buddy and we are using this week as a "test" week to find our 10 rep maxes.

We just went in today and did the routine and noted down our weights and reps and I have subsequently used a calculator, found in this thread, to turn that into some 10 rep max numbers. We then plan to test these on Friday prior to starting on Monday. Is this the correct approach to getting some beginning weights?

2. Nutrition - I have been trying to lose weight the last 12 weeks and based on what I have read here I should continue to focus on being at a deficit until I lose a lot more BF% (down to 13% ish) but will being at a deficit impact my ability to increase my weights each cycle or will my noob gains (I am most definitely a noob) counteract the lack of calories?

3. Is the 10% increase per cycle, for a year or so (10x 5 week cycles) really feasible for someone like me given the above if I follow the program to a tee and have good nutrition?

The reason I ask is I just extrapolated my beginning 10 rep maxes out and the numbers look crazy so I think I have screwed something up:

Squats - 80kg to 190kg (176lb to 400lb+)
Bench - 65kg to 145kg
BoR - 80kg to 190kg
Military press - 35kg to 80kg
Deads - 75kg to 175kg
Curls - 35kg to 85kg

Sorry for the novel but your help on the above is appreciated.

Cheers

[nightanole]

Hi Nightanole.

I have been reading this thread for a few weeks now and am looking to jump into AllPro from next week as I have just finished a 12 week Kris Gethin program (which is the first one I have ever completed) but have a few questions.

First some background. Prior to starting Kris' program I had never really worked out and was 98 kg (215lb) and approx 28% body fat at 6"1

As of today I am 87kg (192lb) and approx 23% BF.

1. I am starting AllPro with a buddy and we are using this week as a "test" week to find our 10 rep maxes.

We just went in today and did the routine and noted down our weights and reps and I have subsequently used a calculator, found in this thread, to turn that into some 10 rep max numbers. We then plan to test these on Friday prior to starting on Monday. Is this the correct approach to getting some beginning weights?

2. Nutrition - I have been trying to lose weight the last 12 weeks and based on what I have read here I should continue to focus on being at a deficit until I lose a lot more BF% (down to 13% ish) but will being at a deficit impact my ability to increase my weights each cycle or will my noob gains (I am most definitely a noob) counteract the lack of calories?

3. Is the 10% increase per cycle, for a year or so (10x 5 week cycles) really feasible for someone like me given the above if I follow the program to a tee and have good nutrition?

The reason I ask is I just extrapolated my beginning 10 rep maxes out and the numbers look crazy so I think I have screwed something up:

Squats - 80kg to 190kg (176lb to 400lb+)
Bench - 65kg to 145kg
BoR - 80kg to 190kg
Military press - 35kg to 80kg
Deads - 75kg to 175kg
Curls - 35kg to 85kg

Sorry for the novel but your help on the above is appreciated.

Cheers

1) get all your testing done, do the exercises in order for the testing. Then you just need to take 72 hours rest and start the program.
2) You can progress on the program just fine while loosing fat, till about 13%, then its either maintain strength and keep cutting, or slow bulk and gain strength.
3) 10% is the min, some can double squat weight in a few cycles thanks to form impovements and a few pounds of n00b gains. The program ends around 10 reps of bw bench and 10 reps of 1.25-1.5x bw squats, witch a bmi of 24 @13%. If you just start the program over weight, most get 7 cycles out of the program. Some can run it a year if morbidly obese, and some only get 5 cycles if they are normal weight and in their 20's.

Based on your current stats, you will spend the majority of the program cutting and trying to maintain those lifts. Im guessing you will have to cut to 75-77.25kg to get to 13%, and then gain about 7kg to finish the program. So your next choice is to either cut then bulk, or try to recomp and stay at 85kg for the entire program.

[nzjase]

Thanks for the reply - it's much appreciated and it makes sense that I wouldn't be banging 10% on to my weights for the next year taking me to 2x BW squats and 1.5x BW bench!

You have picked my magic number, 85kg. I know the maths will say something in the 70's but that just isn't me. I have had 85kg in my head since 12 weeks ago but can you clarify what you mean by "recomp", I have seen it mentioned a few times on this forum.

[nzjase]

Sorry I have found what "recomp" is so disregard my last post.

That being said reading about it makes it sound a long and painful process whereas most suggest cut then bulk etc for efficiency (this is just taken from other BB.com threads)

[nightanole]

Sorry I have found what "recomp" is so disregard my last post.

That being said reading about it makes it sound a long and painful process whereas most suggest cut then bulk etc for efficiency (this is just taken from other BB.com threads)

That is correct. Most successful people run a purmabulk. They bulk at 1/4-1/3 the rate they can cut at without losing strength. So they spend 3/4 of the year bulking and 4-6 weeks a year cutting.

So again that choice is up to you, You got to get rid of over 10kg of fat, and odds are you will gain 5kg of muscle in say 9 months. So you can bite the bullet and do a hard cut for 2 cycles, and focus on never missing reps on the program till after 10 rep week, which means you are not losing muscle. Or you can slow cut and focus on eating just enough to perform so you are at least passing on lifts every other cycle.

[Valeri0706]

I will be doing light day of Week 3 today (with dumbells).

I noticed that most of the times, I am either waiting for someone for the barbell, someone else is waiting for me, or I look ridiculously stupid just lifting the bar on light days. I sometimes even miss warm-ups for the first 3 exercises and jump straight into the work sets.

Hence why I wanted to ask whether I can fully move to dumbells for my 2nd cycle. I still have 2 weeks left on this one, but I would feel better if I do the exercises with dumbells for the next one and onwards. Reasons: Most of the dumbells are usually always available, I don't look stupid when doing warm-ups and I don't have problem with the warm-up weights (wider range in weights vs the limited 15 kg bar).

I just noticed that for this cycle I am not strictly doing things and basically braking the program requirements. Hence my request.

Besides, I won't progress much with the weight since I only have around 3 months left to go to the gym, which means the gripping limit associated with dumbells won't become that much of an issue.

Let me know what you think.

[nightanole]

I will be doing light day of Week 3 today (with dumbells).

I noticed that most of the times, I am either waiting for someone for the barbell, someone else is waiting for me, or I look ridiculously stupid just lifting the bar on light days. I sometimes even miss warm-ups for the first 3 exercises and jump straight into the work sets.

Hence why I wanted to ask whether I can fully move to dumbells for my 2nd cycle. I still have 2 weeks left on this one, but I would feel better if I do the exercises with dumbells for the next one and onwards. Reasons: Most of the dumbells are usually always available, I don't look stupid when doing warm-ups and I don't have problem with the warm-up weights (wider range in weights vs the limited 15 kg bar).

I just noticed that for this cycle I am not strictly doing things and basically braking the program requirements. Hence my request.

Besides, I won't progress much with the weight since I only have around 3 months left to go to the gym, which means the gripping limit associated with dumbells won't become that much of an issue.

Let me know what you think.

milat3340 Has been running just db for a few cycles, you could ask him how he feels and if he noticed anything odd. But yea you can run the program with just dumb bells, just progress will be a little slower. The only thing you cant do is keep switching back and forth between db and bb, pick one and run it for at least 2 cycles in a row.

[FrenchLondoner]

What do you think of switching the 8-12 range rep to 4-8 for the compounds (bench / ohp / DL / rows)? This would mean initially testing your max 6RM instead of 10RM + maybe taking 2-3min rest or more between the two sets. I really like the simple progression but want to focus a bit more on strenght.

[nzjase]

That is correct. Most successful people run a purmabulk. They bulk at 1/4-1/3 the rate they can cut at without losing strength. So they spend 3/4 of the year bulking and 4-6 weeks a year cutting.

So again that choice is up to you, You got to get rid of over 10kg of fat, and odds are you will gain 5kg of muscle in say 9 months. So you can bite the bullet and do a hard cut for 2 cycles, and focus on never missing reps on the program till after 10 rep week, which means you are not losing muscle. Or you can slow cut and focus on eating just enough to perform so you are at least passing on lifts every other cycle.

Hopefully my last question. If I take the first approach, the hard cut, which appeals to me (i.e. get it over with then start a slow bulk at a slight surplus) you mention not missing reps until after 10 rep week.

I follow that but does that also mean that I am not putting my weight up for say the 2 / 3 cycles that I am cutting? This seems to be case since that statement re: missing reps after 10 rep week implied that I will be failing my 12 rep test day and then I won't be putting weight up. Or is it more a "make sure you can ALWAYS do your 10 rep week so you don't lose muscle" but you should still be able to progress each cycle if not cutting too heavily? As I recall you saying earlier that we should still be able to keep progressing on a cut down to 13% BF.

Hope that makes sense... it was confusing to type!

[Valeri0706]

milat3340 Has been running just db for a few cycles, you could ask him how he feels and if he noticed anything odd. But yea you can run the program with just dumb bells, just progress will be a little slower. The only thing you cant do is keep switching back and forth between db and bb, pick one and run it for at least 2 cycles in a row.

Thanks, even if the progress with DB is slower, do you think I will notice any difference in my chest and biceps after 3 months?

As mentioned before, my time is limited. I will soon be final year at university and have to travel to another city every day. I won't have any free time so I want to make the most of it during those 3 summer months I have left.

[haza555]

Hey guys. I'm 23 and after life kinda blew up in my face recently I decided I was going to finally start working on myself. I'm 6'0 and barely 140. I think my major problem is that I play soccer along with my fast metabolism. Anyway, soccer is something I'm not going to give up, I would however like to start putting on some size. I'm tiny given my height and just look like a stick most of the time. Despite this I've been told I have quite an athletic build which I could grow into quite easily with the right dedication and routine.

I'm ready now to get the routine underway. I've started eating A LOT more than I used to. I'm playing soccer for an hour every Wednesday, that right now is my ONLY cardio, I feel like an hour won't be the end of the world, maybe I'm wrong.

A question I had was, should I be doing one of my workout days on this Wednesday or should I separate these?

Ideally I would do Monday-heavy, Wednesday-medium/soccer, Friday-lite

An alternative could be Monday-heavy, Wednesday-soccer, Thursday-medium, Saturday-lite

[nightanole]

What do you think of switching the 8-12 range rep to 4-8 for the compounds (bench / ohp / DL / rows)? This would mean initially testing your max 6RM instead of 10RM + maybe taking 2-3min rest or more between the two sets. I really like the simple progression but want to focus a bit more on strenght.

"novice" is switching up to the first 3 lifts to 3 sets of 4-8 reps, but rest time is still 90 seconds or less, and test day is still 24 reps total. Else you might want to checkout greyskull LP pattern, it might be what you are looking for.

[nightanole]

Thanks, even if the progress with DB is slower, do you think I will notice any difference in my chest and biceps after 3 months?

As mentioned before, my time is limited. I will soon be final year at university and have to travel to another city every day. I won't have any free time so I want to make the most of it during those 3 summer months I have left.

You will notice the most "change" from the weight loss. The old saying, "want to look like you gained 5lbs of muscle, loose 10lbs of fat".

[nightanole]

Hopefully my last question. If I take the first approach, the hard cut, which appeals to me (i.e. get it over with then start a slow bulk at a slight surplus) you mention not missing reps until after 10 rep week.

I follow that but does that also mean that I am not putting my weight up for say the 2 / 3 cycles that I am cutting? This seems to be case since that statement re: missing reps after 10 rep week implied that I will be failing my 12 rep test day and then I won't be putting weight up. Or is it more a "make sure you can ALWAYS do your 10 rep week so you don't lose muscle" but you should still be able to progress each cycle if not cutting too heavily? As I recall you saying earlier that we should still be able to keep progressing on a cut down to 13% BF.

Hope that makes sense... it was confusing to type!

The hard cut will increase your power to weight ratio, maintaining strength while dropping weight. If you do the soft cut, you can progress on weights, but it will take much longer since you will only be loosing 1lb or so a week. Even 1lb a week is a 3500 cal weekly deficit.

[nightanole]

Hey guys. I'm 23 and after life kinda blew up in my face recently I decided I was going to finally start working on myself. I'm 6'0 and barely 140. I think my major problem is that I play soccer along with my fast metabolism. Anyway, soccer is something I'm not going to give up, I would however like to start putting on some size. I'm tiny given my height and just look like a stick most of the time. Despite this I've been told I have quite an athletic build which I could grow into quite easily with the right dedication and routine.

I'm ready now to get the routine underway. I've started eating A LOT more than I used to. I'm playing soccer for an hour every Wednesday, that right now is my ONLY cardio, I feel like an hour won't be the end of the world, maybe I'm wrong.

A question I had was, should I be doing one of my workout days on this Wednesday or should I separate these?

Ideally I would do Monday-heavy, Wednesday-medium/soccer, Friday-lite

An alternative could be Monday-heavy, Wednesday-soccer, Thursday-medium, Saturday-lite

I dont normally turn people away, but i think you would be better off running starting strength (with the diet in the book) for 90 days and then start allpro.

[DovahkiinR]

I was reading this page, and have a question.
What is soft cut and hard cut.
I'm cuting now, I'm 141lb and 70.8 in.
I'm cuting for 3 mouth now, beacuse in my past year that started lifting, i was realy do bad bulking and get lots of fat, now i think i have 14% fat, and wand continue cuting since see my abs.
I'm on my second week of AllPro. Should i do soft cut or hard cut, and whats the difference?!

[haza555]

Hey, could you elaborate on this? I have no idea what that is. Thanks

[nightanole]

I was reading this page, and have a question.
What is soft cut and hard cut.
I'm cuting now, I'm 141lb and 70.8 in.
I'm cuting for 3 mouth now, beacuse in my past year that started lifting, i was realy do bad bulking and get lots of fat, now i think i have 14% fat, and wand continue cuting since see my abs.
I'm on my second week of AllPro. Should i do soft cut or hard cut, and whats the difference?!

Soft cut = can pass test day at least every other cycle, so at least 5% progression rate per cycle
Hard cut = can maintain strength every cycle, does not miss reps till 11-12 rep weeks.

A hard cut is required to get below 13%, you cant loose weight and progress at the same time.

You are underweight, since the final goal of the program is a bmi of 24 @ 13%. If you are at 15% now, its going to take 10lbs of weight drop (odds are 3 being muscle) to get to 10% with relaxed abs.


How good are you going to look at 71" tall and 130lbs?????

I hide behind light poles and im 70" and 155lbs.

[nightanole]

Hey, could you elaborate on this? I have no idea what that is. Thanks

Starting strength is a very popular football bulking program meant to put as much meat on you as it can, in about 6 months (the off season). A lot of people burn out after 90 days. So around the 90 day mark you can switch over to allpro, which has a much easier progression pattern. Unfortunatly allpro is not meant for people who need to add 25lbs + to their frame to get to a 24 bmi.

[haza555]

Starting strength is a very popular football bulking program meant to put as much meat on you as it can, in about 6 months (the off season). A lot of people burn out after 90 days. So around the 90 day mark you can switch over to allpro, which has a much easier progression pattern. Unfortunatly allpro is not meant for people who need to add 25lbs + to their frame to get to a 24 bmi.

Thank you, i'll take a look and see if I can find it.

[DovahkiinR]

Thanks for reply.
I will look like a pipe in that waight.
So you suggest me do bulking or continue cuting till get 10%?

[nightanole]

Thanks for reply.
I will look like a pipe in that waight.
So you suggest me do bulking or continue cuting till get 10%?

I would try to get to a bmi of 24 with a body fat of 13%. That will look best with cloths on, then you can try cutting down 5-7 lbs.

[FrenchLondoner]

Thanks. 90s rest would be tough on the heavy day.

[davidbzr]

Hi, nightanole. So, I'm on week 3 of my first cycle and I failed on the overhead press yesterday on a heavy day. What should I do? I think I started too heavy with that exercise, also my shoulders are kind of leaned forward, please see the attached picture (i.imgur.com/6EwpMAT.jpg) and I feel slightly burn in my shoulders when doing this particular exercise, I'm checking out this link (forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=162043393) which talks about correcting this, and I'm not all that sure now if I should try one of those suggested exercises to correct this shoulder issue, what would you suggest?

Also, I'm doing acro yoga on Sundays and it's a lot of work physically, do you think this would interfere with my progress with this routine?

Thanks as always for all of your comments and for maintaining this thread on your own, basically, I appreciate you taking the time to answer questions and help people.

[nightanole]

Hi, nightanole. So, I'm on week 3 of my first cycle and I failed on the overhead press yesterday on a heavy day. What should I do? I think I started too heavy with that exercise, also my shoulders are kind of leaned forward, please see the attached picture (i.imgur.com/6EwpMAT.jpg) and I feel slightly burn in my shoulders when doing this particular exercise, I'm checking out this link (forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=162043393) which talks about correcting this, and I'm not all that sure now if I should try one of those suggested exercises to correct this shoulder issue, what would you suggest?

Also, I'm doing acro yoga on Sundays and it's a lot of work physically, do you think this would interfere with my progress with this routine?

Thanks as always for all of your comments and for maintaining this thread on your own, basically, I appreciate you taking the time to answer questions and help people.

I wouldnt be changing anything for 2 cycles, to see if just running the program full range of motion irons some of the imbalances out.

I would reduce the OHP by 10%. You can always just increase it 15% at the end of the cycle if you felt test day was real easy.

Acro yoga should be fine. About the only thing that affects the program is HIIT, since its classified as another lifting session as far as recovery goes. If arco is classified more as GPP or sports training, or even good old cardio, then it will actually increase recovery from allpro.

[Valeri0706]

You will notice the most "change" from the weight loss. The old saying, "want to look like you gained 5lbs of muscle, loose 10lbs of fat".

Thank you! I hope in the previous response you didn't imply that the user who is doing the program with DB feels something odd or is possible injured.

Also, do I need to finish this cycle with BB or I can go straight to DB starting Week 4 in 2 days? I am afraid of not failing test day, jumping straight to DB, because as I said, light day with DB feels much harder than heavy day with BB.

[nightanole]

Thank you! I hope in the previous response you didn't imply that the user who is doing the program with DB feels something odd or is possible injured.

Also, do I need to finish this cycle with BB or I can go straight to DB starting Week 4 in 2 days? I am afraid of not failing test day, jumping straight to DB, because as I said, light day with DB feels much harder than heavy day with BB.

You can do what you want, then after test week i would do a 10 rep test with the barbells and start the next cycle. You should be able to move a lot more weight with bar bells.

[Valeri0706]

You can do what you want, then after test week i would do a 10 rep test with the barbells and start the next cycle. You should be able to move a lot more weight with bar bells.

Yes, but I told you my intention is to continue the program with dumbells. If I continue with barbells, how do I solve the warm-up issue? Even on first cycle, I am mostly doing only 1 warm-up set of 5-6 rep with the 15 kg bar before doing the main weight (20 kg). I know it is wrong, but I see no other substitutes.

What if I don't do warm-ups at all, but jump straight into work sets? Do you think this can lead to injuries? Or do warm-ups with dumbells before the barbell work weights?

It's very difficult to find substitutes for the 1/4 and 1/2 warm-ups when performing with bar bells.

[nightanole]

Yes, but I told you my intention is to continue the program with dumbells. If I continue with barbells, how do I solve the warm-up issue? Even on first cycle, I am mostly doing only 1 warm-up set of 5-6 rep with the 15 kg bar before doing the main weight (20 kg). I know it is wrong, but I see no other substitutes.

What if I don't do warm-ups at all, but jump straight into work sets? Do you think this can lead to injuries? Or do warm-ups with dumbells before the barbell work weights?

It's very difficult to find substitutes for the 1/4 and 1/2 warm-ups when performing with bar bells.

Sorry i was confused. Yes you can switch to all db today, and then finish the cycle.

Beginners skipping warmups is not advisable since you do not have your natural full range of motion yet, and your cns is not well trained. You are not going to get injured by skipping the warmups, but you will have a reduced quality first set.

Again the min warmup is just doing the motion with no weight for 10 reps, that primes the cns and makes sure you can do the motion at full range.

[Valeri0706]

Sorry i was confused. Yes you can switch to all db today, and then finish the cycle.

Beginners skipping warmups is not advisable since you do not have your natural full range of motion yet, and your cns is not well trained. You are not going to get injured by skipping the warmups, but you will have a reduced quality first set.

Again the min warmup is just doing the motion with no weight for 10 reps, that primes the cns and makes sure you can do the motion at full range.

Ok, that clarifies it. So even if my current work set is 20 kg, I can still do 1 warm up set of 10 reps with just the bar (15 kg)? This is roughly 75% of the work weight? Doesn't it break the program?

Not mentioning on light days (15 kg with the bar), the warm-up is exactly that same weight, because I can't go lighter than just the bar.

Hence why I wanted to switch to dumbells. I just look ridiculously dumb on light days, being there around buff guys and just lifting the bar without anything on it.